NEF Muzzleloader groupings??!! Anyone ever had this problem???
 

I just purchased an NEF sidekick. I am using a Bushnell trophy "red dot" sight which I like very much and am using (2) 50 777 pellots with each 250g shockwave sabot. The place where I bought the gun put the sight on and they know what they are doing. I checked the sight out myself and it is properly and securely mounted. ***Note*** the gun was shot off of sand bagsduringthe sighting process...

Here is the problem: It took literally 2 shots to sight the gun in at 25yds (I have it shooting 2 inches high actually). When I shot at 50 yds the groupings where at least 10-11 inches higher than at 25 yds. Is this common??? Is the bullet actually rising that much? Should I use a heavier sabot?? Have I not "fouled"/"broke" the gun in enough??

All gropuings were within 1-1.5 inches and each shot had the same routine; I ran a little bit of cleaner on a patch and then a dry patch both inside and out, 2 pellots, 1 sabot, 209 winchester primer, and repeat. The sabot was pushed all the way to the bottom ... I am sure of it.

Is it the gun? Is it the sight? What??? Any and all help/info is appreciated as I am a little lost. If you need more info from me let me know ... I'll be checking this post quite often because I am anxious to hear on the matter.

Thanks everyone.

BTW ... I do plan on taking the site off and using the open/stock sights to determine if it is the gun or the "red dot" sight which is causing the variable. I was actually thinking of sighting low at 25 so it tapers off at 50 and 100 yds, but that is the last resort.

RE: NEF Muzzleloader groupings??!! Anyone ever had this problem???
 

If your sight is 1.5 inches above the bore, then the bullet rises 3.5 inches in the first 25 yards. At 50 yards it can't be higher than 5.5 inches higher than line of sight. So no, I can't explain where the extra 4.5 to 5.5 inches is coming from. Just sight to 50 for now. Do a series of 3 shot groups on different targets. Adjust between targets until the center is 2" high at 50. I would be interested in how that goes.

RE: NEF Muzzleloader groupings??!! Anyone ever had this problem???
 

Is that scope mounted in asee through type mount? If that's the case I would think it's just the relatively steep angle of the barrel compared to the scope's sightplane. To be 2 inches high at 25 with say 3 inches difference bore to scope centerline is 5 inches of 'rise'...I'd say those bullets are still going up. Try to zero the gun at 50 and check where they are at at 25. If it's not that simple then you could be looking at a parallax issue, had a scope once that as long you shot at 100 yards everything was great...25 I'd miss the broad side of a barn!

RE: NEF Muzzleloader groupings??!! Anyone ever had this problem???
 

When you shoot the sidekick off sand bags keep the gun on the bag as close to the hinge area as possible. This will prevent some movement in the forearm affecting your shot you can also use an o ring to help float the forarm. This may help a little I am getting 3 to 4 inch groups at 100 yards with a t/c 1x32 scope.

RE: NEF Muzzleloader groupings??!! Anyone ever had this problem???
 

2" high at 25 yards is too much.That alone will put your bullet about 6" high at 50 yards. Try dead on at 25. The other concern/question I have is in regards to the sight picture you are using. That scope may have a 6 m.o.a. dot (model? Bushnell makes a few different ones ;)). If you are covering the intended bull with that dot, you could introduce considerable error simply by being off-center of the dot. That difference could add another 3" rise in impact in the worst case.

I think your cure is two-fold - first: you are sighted in TOO high and second: you need to find some mechansim to assure centering the bullseye with that large dot.

Your group size is probably fine considering your sighting apparatus.

RE: NEF Muzzleloader groupings??!! Anyone ever had this problem???
 

Thanks for the replys everyone. Underlock: yeah, I corrected the problem by simply sighting dead on at 50 yds (2 inches high)... and now I shoot dead on at 100yds (2-3 inches high). I think the gun needed to be broke in a little more ... because now it's lights out with that thing. I guess the gun is done having a mind of its' own ... or maybe the shooter finally got his sh*t straight ... LOL

The grouping I got was scary with the red dot sight ... 1-1.5 inches at 100 yds. BTW ... the MOA on the sight is 3.

How much can I exect the slug to drop at 150 and 200 yds? Anyone have a guess? I'm using (2) 50 777 pellets with 250g sabots and winchester 209's.

I have one more concern. I can't shoot for crap off-hand at 100yds with the muzzleloader. I missed a friggen pizza box "3 out of 3" times at 100yds!!!, where asof the sand bags I can hit a largegrapefruit4-5 times at 100yds. What is the deal ... any ideas or suggestions? I discussed it with my dad and he thinks I am flinching after I pull the trigger since I'm not used to a ML. It's a little frustrating shooting that good on a rest and that bad without one. The only rifle I am used to shooting is a 30'06 and I am deadly off-hand with that thing. What do you guys think?

thanks in advance.

RE: NEF Muzzleloader groupings??!! Anyone ever had this problem???
 

Have your Dad load the gun for you (you don't watch), then watch you shoot. He can tell real quick if you are flinching by simply leaving the primer out of the carrier when you don't expect it. Practice until there is nobody explosion when you drop the hammer onan empty.;)

RE: NEF Muzzleloader groupings??!! Anyone ever had this problem???
 

I think your Dad might be right. There are a lot of people that do not shoot well off hand. Underclocked has some good ideas with the hidden load. I did the same thing when I was shooting revolver, and solved it the same with with empty chambers.

Another thing that might be happening when you shoot off hand is, you're taking to long to get target acquisition and because of this wandering the sight and trying to spot your trigger pull. When I shoot free hand I shoot much better with a straight pull, fast target acquisition, and fire. When I take my time, I start to swing and it makes for poor accuracy.

RE: NEF Muzzleloader groupings??!! Anyone ever had this problem???
 

Thanks for the idea underlocked ... I think I may also have been holding the gun too "loose" off hand and not tight to my body. That is how I shoot slugs out my shotgun ... I let the gun kick hard and I shoot very well with open sights and off hand. However they aren't shot over 75 yards. I just got in that habit and I could be transfereing that over to the ML.

Cayugad: I'm glad you pointed that out, because I even told my dad that I was going to start shooting faster. I felt as though I was anticipating the shot a little bit too much. Great stuff guys thanks ...

feel free to write more ...

RE: NEF Muzzleloader groupings??!! Anyone ever had this problem???
 

I don't even have to have someone else do the loading to putmyself through a test such as I described. But then I've nearly mastered the art of forgetting. ;)