Apex's first outing
 

Well took the Apex out today.

Oh my! She's a shooter and a keeper.

I have to be honest, I just didn't see all the hoopla about inline muzzleloading until today. Wow. What a pleasure it was.

I decided to follow what I preach and shoot some conicals to start. I shot 270 ballets with 80 3f Goex. Prior to shooting the Apex I shot 375 SSB's out of the Sidekick with 80 gr 3f Goex. I was surprised find as much recoil from the Apex as the Sidekick because the Apex is heavier and the Ballet is lighter. The only explanation I can give is that the Sidekick had an additional recoil pad on her and the extra barrel length of the Apex lead to higher muzzle velocities than I would normally get from the Sidekick with the same load. I didn't chrony the load but I might tomorrow.

I set a target at 25 yards and set the elevation the first major grad from bottom. I wanted to see what the drop per grad is for the open sights. I shot three shots, all touched. Then I moved the rear sight 3 major grads. There are 3 minor grads per major grad on the Apex rear sight. Shot 3 more times, again 3 touching holes, 2 almost right on top the other. 9 minor grads lifted point of impact 4.5 inches at 25 yards. This is precisely 2 MOA per grad. So one minor grad is 1/2 inch at 25 yards, 1" at 50 yards, 1.5" at 75 yards, and of course 2" at 100 yards. Perfect!

Did some more fine tuning with the sights. The final 3 shots were a 2" group at 75 yards (a little under 3 MOA). This with the fiber optic sights which is basically what I get from the sidekick. I am very impressed cuz I'm not that great a shot, no bags, just resting on carpet laid over a boulder.

This is gonna be my load, I think, for my hunt in OK next week with my dad. Was planning to takethe sidekick, but the Apex will get the pleasure if the opportunity is afforded me to discharge the rifle at game.

What impressed me most is that I had ZERO blowback. When I brought the rifle home, I dropped the breech and show my wife. She said, "I though you were going out to shoot". I said, "I did,, I did" . The breech was totally clean. I am so not worried about the firing pin mech and the scope I'll be puttin on her. What a pleasure it was to shoot. Every time I dropped the breech, POP!, out came the 209 , I didn't have to dig or pry, literally never touched a 209 to remove it from the breech plug.

Looking forward to posting more as I learn more. But this is pretty much it for now.

RE: Apex's first outing
 

Well congratulation on a great shooter. Sounds like you have it all under control and will have a wonderful rifle. Good luck on your next shoot as well.. Good luck hunting too.

RE: Apex's first outing
 

Thanks Dave. So far so good!:D:D As far as hunting, I'll probably need all the help I can get :D! Sure hope I harvest one andmaybe recover a 270 ballet.

RE: Apex's first outing
 

Those ball-ets are a real good load.


I have a friend that shoots a Wolverine and all he has ever used is 270 gr ball-ets. He gets his couple deer every year and he once bragged that 90 grains of Pyrodex and a ball-et dropped them faster then his 30-06. I told him that's because he took his time and made sure he placed his shot with the ball-et. He just smiled and said, that might be true.

RE: Apex's first outing
 

Dave, I have no doubt that its true. Do you rememberwhen Sharpshooter recovered some bullets from buckets of sand. I tried that afterwards also. The 270 ballet expanded to 13/16" inches. Made a formidable mushroom.


I can hardly wait :).

RE: Apex's first outing
 

Dang, I'm starting to get talked into this gun. I'm not into that brand but I don't see why it wouldn't be worth the money. I'm definetely contemplating the purchase.

RE: Apex's first outing
 

I am very pleased so far.

I just cleaned the rifle. As I thought, she cleaned easy. Keeps getting better. I want to scope her so bad I can not stand it. My scopes on back order. But with a 2" open sight group at 75 yards, I expect I will skinny that down to MOA with a scope. We will see . . .

RE: Apex's first outing
 

I am new to muzzleloading and purchased an Apex in late October. So far I've been happy with it. I've been using the 100 grains of the Triple Seven pellets and have been using 295 grain powerbelt and 300 grain superglide shockwaves. They seem to shoot about the same.
There is one thing I don't quite understand. In the manual it says that it is magnum capable and can shoot 150 grains of Triple Seven pellets. It also says not to use more than 100 grains of loose powder. I understand that you only need 85 percent of loose triple seven to equal the pellets. So if you take 85 percent of 150 you get 127.5 grains of loose. Why would it be ok to shoot 150 grains of the pellets but then you must limit yourself to 100 grains of the loose?
Its not that I think I need to shoot maximum loads. I bought some Triple Seven ff loose to try out and I plan on starting at about 85 grains and going up from there. If I want to be totally safe, (which I do), do I need to stop at 100.
Thanks,
Art

RE: Apex's first outing
 

flounder33

Yep! you do if you want to comply with the manufactures standard and remain in the safe area. Part of the reasoning is human mistakes if they say 100 and you goof a little bit and get 110-120 you might be ok. but if you load 127 and goof you might not be so ok...

And then again if you go the to the Hodogons (spelling) web site you will see that their max laods are 100 grains...

One additional point - 100 grains of loose T7-2f is way hotter than 100 grains of T7 pellets - might be worth 110/115 grains of the pellets. Mt suggestion if you can make the switch to loose it is a better move... You will get more consistent loads.. Gosh one more thing very few modern ML's can burn more than 120 grains of powder any more than that and you will be shooting un-burnt powder out the barrel.

RE: Apex's first outing
 

The reasons why a manufacturer puts those limits on their rifle is I am sure a safety as much as a liability issue. Who knows, maybe some independant testing was done with pressures in the barrel between loose and pellet. All that pressure stuff is way over my head. The important thing is follow the recommendations of the manufacturer. The recommendations I am sure are there for a reason, your safety. To be safe, follow them. Also what a lot of people fail to understand is, do not underestimate the power of 100 grains of powder. That is a lot of power. More them most would ever need unless shooting extreme distances at large animals. I remember when I got my first inline, a CVA Staghorn Magnum and I read the manual and saw that 100 grain limit and thought.. this is a magnum rifle .. what the heck!! Just stop your loose powder charges at 100 grains like they suggest and you should be safe.

Also if you look on a Hodgdon's Powder web site, it might interest you to know they do not suggest 150 grain loads with pellets. Try and find velocity numbers on 150 grain loads. You will normally have to look at someone individual who did the testing over a chronograph on their own.

RE: Apex's first outing
 

i emailed winchester about that and they limit 100 grains of loose powder mainly due to anything more would be a waste and not give a complete burn of powder. They also told me you can shoot up to 130 grains pyrodex/blackpowder safely with no issues. My normal load is 120 grains pyrodex RS with a 295 grain powerbelt. Last year i cut my charge down to 90 grains when i was using the 385 great plains bullet. Mainly just to tame the recoil. Ive never used triple 7 so i dont know how those loads work out. I prefer pyrodex RS. Ive shot up to 170 grains loosepyrodex rs with 295 powerbelt and it worked perfectly, also made a nice sparkler show of burning powder. So the 100 grains max limit they say in the book is mainly there for you so you dont waste powder. Enjoy the rifle.

RE: Apex's first outing
 

You know when I get back home, I'm gonna check my manual. I think a 100 grain limitation would have leapt out at me or maybe there is difference with Stainless. I thought the limit was 120 grains but since I never planned to use more than 100 grains, maybe I just overlooked it. I follow up on that later.

I had another fabulous outing with the Apex today. I shot all the way to 140 yards today. I was very impressed it. First thing I did was try 100 yards. The night before I matched my trajectory to the 25 yard and 75 yard POI'susing 1550 fps (50 fps higher than sidekick).I calculated2.2 in low at 100 yards. So lifted the rear sight one grad to zero it. Sure enough the POI's of the final two of three shots were separated by two inches almost the same elevation while the first centered themand landed and 1.25" below. The center of the grouping was 4.5 inches right of bull. Last night they were .5 inches left of bull at 75 yards in pristine range conditions. It was windy (and gusty) so shots wound up stringing in the horizantal axis.

For grins and giggles, I pushed the target back to 140 yards. I had worked out trajectory sheets for each grad. At the top grad, the load should be 1.5 inches low at 140 yards. Sure enough the center of the next five shots was 1.7 inches low of point of aim, but oh my, the wind really screws with group size at that range. Some of the shots were off the target the wind had blown them that far right.

Then I left the sights in the same place and went back to 80 yards. I wanted to see how close the trajectory was in realityto the one I calculated.Looking at the chartI saw the point of impact should be 4.5 in high at 80 yards. I buckled on a new target, which is shown below. I was amazed to find the next two shots precisely 4.5 in. high at 80 yards. I moved the rear sight to where I wanted to leave her. I want 1" low at 100 yards so I put the sight just a little over 1/2 grad higher than last night and shot a 5 shot group on the same target. It was about 3.5 inches wide but only 1.5 inches tall. I'm proud of that, less than 2 MOA in the vertical axis. Most of the horizontal spread was from the wind.

Frontier Gander, you may not know the T/C's that well, but I learned first hand what you meant by getting a gloved finger through the trigger guard. It was chilly today and I was wearing heavy (snow skiing type) gloves. While I wouldn't feel comfortable pushing a gloved finger through with the rifle cocked, it was no problem and completely safe to put the finger through and then cock the rifle. Awesome!

RE: Apex's first outing
 

that is some real good shooting. Those ball-ets look like they hold real well. Also it's amazing how accurate your sight adjustment is.. That would make a nice open sight shooting rifle for a hunter.. Nice shooting!!

RE: Apex's first outing
 

Thanks Dave. I'm very impressed not only with the Apex, but also the ballets. They are just shooting sweeter than sweet in her. She's sighted in. Below is the trajectory for the load.

RE: Apex's first outing
 

Awesome, i cant wait untill i order mine and shoot it. Phil, if you are worried about your bulky gloves, go to walmart and they sell wool mittens and the finger part lets you roll it off your 4 fingers and get a good solid trigger hold. Ive bee wearing those for years now. Whats suprising me is how those ball-ets are shooting, i shot them before and was happy with 2" groups at 100 yards but i was shooting 120 grains pyrodex RS out of the rifle. I like to try different bullets with my standard load that i use with powerbelts. Are you shooting off any type of rest?

RE: Apex's first outing
 

Jon,

I go out to a BLM shooting range. They have big boulders in the parking of each range sight. I got lucky this morning and got one which goes beyond 75 yards. I have a 3' X 8' piece of carpet I drape over a boulder and I sit on the ground in front of it to rest the rifle. I grip the front of the rifle just like I would while shooting off hand.

120 RS, IMHO, is to much powder for the ballet. Knowing you shot open sights, I must tell you, that 2" is a fabulous group at 100 yards and isn't something to be discouraged about.

Regarding the mitts, i was thinking the same but also this. One could wear thin wool or neoprene gloves under the mitts. Keep the hands a little warmer and allow one to slip his trigger finger through with no problems.

RE: Apex's first outing
 

I have confirmed that my manual says the maximum recommended loose powder load is 100 grains of 2f granulation .Oddly, they recommend a 100-130grain load of pellets. So they recommend at least 100 grains of pelletized powder. I'm shooting loose and I won't exceed 100 grains 777 2f. I feel perfectly safe with that, and I don't see anything in the manual which would prohibit that load. I recently purchaseda pound of777 2f powder BTW so I might see how she fires in the Apex soon.

Added:

My sense is that rather than saying the limit of BP is this amount, the limit of Pyro RS this amount, and so on . . . BPI has elected to restrict the total loose amount to the most powerful of the approved loose powders. No matter what you use, no more than 100 grains is the maximum. I can see the wisdom of this approach as there can be no way to overload load the rifle, regardless of powder chosen, if 100 grains is the maximumone loads.

RE: Apex's first outing
 

Dave, its precisely 2 MOA per grad. Everysight has an MOA per grad. Its nice when its a whole number like 2, makes it easy for adjustment. Its a very simple thing once you know what the drop/grad ratio is. The easiest way to find it is to shoot the rifle. I like 25 yards because one can do a considerable change in MOA and still be on target and the sighting MOA is small. First pick a Major Grad low on the ramp, shoot a 3 shot group, Next take a large step up in grads, I did nine when doing the Apex. The larger the step up the more the change in ramp position will swamp sighting error. Just divide the inches separating the centers of the upper and lower groupby the number of grads adjusted.Multiply that by 4 to get inches per grad at 100 yards. This number is roughly the MOA per grad.

Then its just a matterknowing the trajectory. In my case, if I am4" lower than I want to be at 100 yards, just adjust 2 grads. This because the drop from the boreline is the same no matterwhere the boreline is pointed.So need to lift the POI of 4" at100 yards" just lift the borelineso that it intersects100 yards4 inches higher. It's handy stuff.

RE: Apex's first outing
 

Pqlasqow looks like you have a great rifle. You are really teasing me with your post. If you keep dangling the hook in front of me I just might bite and get an Apex.

RE: Apex's first outing
 

Chris,

I'm not fishing. Just sharing my Apex experience. I'm also not recommending it or any other rifle. If your only experience so far has been the NEF heritage rifle, you would be amazed with the APEX. Probably any of the other brands (TC, White, Knight) would give you as much satisfaction. The Apex fit my budget and is performingas well with conicals as my Sidekick so the APEX is completely freeing me from everything I disliked about the Sidekick.

If I were to explain why I am so satisfied, I would sum it up with:

Its like a centerfire rifle you load from the muzzle. Totally and completely clean in the breech. 209's slip in and pop out freely (like a cartridge does in an automatic) without handling them. Except for the swabbing, it is totally clean, shot after shot after shot. Just awesome. Anyone who would encourage the purchase of stainless sidekick over a stainless Apex selling for $60 less has either never owned both rifles or is foolish.

If you get one, great, but I will only let you blame me if it gets you out of trouble with your girlfriend :D. For your next rifle, get what you want, not what someone else wants you to get. You'll be alot happier.

RE: Apex's first outing
 

I think that my next riflle will be an apex. I love the way they feel and that is a really big factor for me. As far as my girlfriend goes I think she will be alright with me getting one in the spring. (I drained my bank account getting her a dimond for christmas).

RE: Apex's first outing
 

Am I to take that to mean that you are officially or (will hopefully be at Christmas) engaged? If so, congratulations or best of luck if either applies. What about Valentine's Day?

RE: Apex's first outing
 

I knew you'd love that Apex. Every time I clean mine I start looking forward to the next trip to the range or the deer woods. I wish I could take it to work and shoot on my lunch hour!!

RE: Apex's first outing
 

It just does that to ya:D.

RE: Apex's first outing
 

Am I to take that to mean that you are officially or (will hopefully be at Christmas) engaged? If so, congratulations or best of luck if either applies. What about Valentine's Day?
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Thanks pglasgow. Yeah we are engaged. As far as valentine's day goes, I have no idea what i am gonna do but I do know i have to make it big if I want a rifle. lol

RE: Apex's first outing
 

Thanks pglasgow. Yeah we are engaged. As far as valentine's day goes, I have no idea what i am gonna do but I do know i have to make it big if I want a rifle. lol
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Its all good. :D. Congratulations then are in order. Wishing you and your bride to be a lifetime of happiness.

RE: Apex's first outing
 

thanks Pglasgow