RE: Don't OverDrive PowerBelts-Pics
 

whitetails must have thicker body armor. ive had zero problems with pass thru shots out to 148 yards with the 245 grain powerbelt. I still find this bullet failure amazing. Looks like you placed that shot close to where i like to aim.

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Yep, that's why I went to shooting Great Plains conicals.

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It might do well to put all this 70 grains 270 PB into perspective. First it seems clear that LaneNebraska is using a .45 cal. So first off comparing it to a 70 grain charge in a 50 cal. just isn't fair. First, lets convert the 70 grains to an equivalent in .50 cal. Just multiply by the percentage increase in bore area. 24% X 70= 16.8. Add that to 70 grains and we've got 87 grains of JSG. Doesn't JSG perform like 777 3f? If so lets multiply that by 115%(for the fact 777 should be reduced by 15%)and get 100 grains. Now lets convert for3f and multipy 100 grains by 110%. We get 110 grains.Soto get the same velocity from a .50 cal bullet of the same sectional density, oneneedsin the neighborhood of110 grains RS or 2f BP.

Whats a 50 cal bulletof the same sectional density as a 270 .45cal bullet? Around 335 grains. So a 338 platinum PBwith 110 grains of RS is equivalent in muzzle velocity to a 270 PB with 70 grains JSG. If 110 grains is driving a 338 too fast in a 50 cal. then 70 grains of JSG is driving a 270 too fastin a .45 cal. I'll let everyone be their own judge on that. But I don't think its as simple as this grainage or that grainage. It as simple as theimpact velocity, bullet weight, and profile of the hollowpoint, which maybe isn't all that simple afterall.

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are you sure hes using a .45? he said he used a 270 grain bullet and they only make 270 grain powerbelt in 50cal. 45's are 223 and 300 grain. I really wouldnt be to worried about pass thru. The deer dropped in its tracks. And those great plains bullets arnt that great either. I punched one into a doe at 15-20 yards right in the shoulder and it didnt even start to make a hole in the other shoulder. In fact we found it mushroomed and wedged against the inner shoulder and hardly any marks on it. Thats why im going back with powerbelts, ive had way better luck with complete pass thru shots.

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Your right, except the copper .45's also come in 275 grains. I confused them. 70 grains JSGin 50 cal. would be like 90 grains RS for muzzle velocity. I can see the PB shattering at 40 yards, especially high on the back like that where the ribs are thicker and there is a little more meat on them.

Im not really worried about pass through. I always seem to get them. I have said this before. How can one argue with success? If the deer is dead well, it just doesn't get better than that.

I just wouldn't want someone to take from the "second round" that 70 grains of 2f BP or RS would produce identical results. I really don't think they would.

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"I really wouldnt be to worried about pass thru. The deer dropped in its tracks."

Can't believe that you feel this way. If you hunt where there is any cover at all, you want a hole in and a hole out. If you don't you will probably not have a good blood trailto help you find your deer. M/Lers are different from high powered rifles in that more often than not the deer do run off. That is fine, no problem at all. You double lung a deer and it is going to die, usually within 100 yards. If I shoot one and don't get a passthrough, I will try to figure out why, but not loose sleep over it. But, my goal is to have good bullet expansion and a complete passthrough.

"I punched one into a doe at 15-20 yards right in the shoulder and it didnt even start to make a hole in the other shoulder"

This, is a part of your problem. Don't aim for the shoulder. Shoot your MLer like a bow and aim behind the shoulder. You will take out both lungs and possibly the top of the heart. I have, andstill do, take shots other thanbehind the shoulder. But, it is a calculated risk.I am comfortable w/ the shockwaves to know that Ican bust throughboth shoulders and the spine and I will stillgeta passthrough. I would love to see you hit the same deer with your 245 grain pb. The difference between it and the plains bullet is that instead of a mushroomed bullet in the other shoulder, you would have 500 little pieces of lead.

Hank

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great info..you folks are just awesome on your info on here..

here is sprouls view..that holein that deer shows that load was too hot ,in my opinion, but thats not all bad,IF SHOT IS BEHIND SHOULDERS..

MY FIRST buckwith powerbelt 295 ,80 grs of 2f,50 cal flintlock ,the bullet went right thru behind shoulder and out the otherside..

buck went right down..i think the heavier bullet is better in 50 cal but i get such great groups out of the 295,i like it..

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F.G.

There are some very wise words in hanks comments. I know he wouldn't have said them if he didn't want you to take something positive from them. So please do just that and I promise your future ML experience will improve as a result.

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i know what hes sayin. With that doe i shot with the great plains bullet, i spine shot her at 90 yards and finished her off at maybe 15 yards. I always hard so much about using a bigger bullet to punch through both shoulders, i wanted to see what it would do. With powerbelts, i always go for lung shots. Ive put them down right in their tracks. Even when i used to hunt with a centerfire they were always lung shots. I just hate shoulder shots due to so much meat getting ruined.

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there is not much meat in whitetail deer shoulder..some throw shoulders away..i like just behind shoulder where elbow is..most i shoot in neck..

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maybe on whitetail but i hunt mule deer. Theres a lot of meat on the shoulder of a big mule doe. Ususally get 3 to 4 steaks off one shoulder + burger. Lung shots are still #1 in my book for dropping them fast.

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never hunted a mule deer but i bet,as you said there is meat on shoulders..

i agree with you..

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Yea

I'm shooting a 45cal. Meant to say the 275Grain PB. And I'm going back to the range soon and will chrony the loads;):)

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Throwin the front shoulders away cause there's not enough meat??? There is plenty of meat on the shoulders of deer I shoot. On most decent size deer we even keep a shoulder roast, until a few years ago we decided we want more ground meat rather than a shoulder roast. Unless of course you put a bullet through the shoulder then yeah, there isnt much worth saving. But being wasteful with an animal you just took is a sin in my book, if someone is that picky/lazy they dont want the shoulders perhaps they should hunt in the meat section of the local supermarket rather than the woods lol, for the people who "some throw shoulders away.."

I have shot about equal numbers of pass-through shots as I have non-pass-throughs. Which is better? Well, I havent had any issues yet recovering deer from either, so apparently its not as big of deal as some think. Perhaps in thick cover or were traking is more difficult, but that doesnt mean that those conditions are present were most of us hunt.

Just because it didnt pass though does not mean the bullet stangely vaporized or exploaded into bits. Almost all the bullets I have recovered show a lot of mushrooming but mostly together. I doubt my non-pass-throughs have lost any more mass than the ones that were a pass through. But kinda hard to weigh the ones that passed through.

Last I checked I could easily distinguish between the two. Not that I have looked into the maxi balls but the first couple things that come to mind would be a lot less lead fouling in the riffling, and the fact that with powerbelt I dont need to mess with bore butter at all, its been the easiest bullet to slide down my barrel yet. I would aslo bet you ballistic coeficient is going to be a tad different between the two.

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I thought you had a 45 cal. from previous posts you have made. Thanks for clearing it up for us. Also thanks for chronying the load. I'mlooking forward to yourreport on that.

Just for grins and giggles it would be interesting to to see how much RS it takes in .50 cal to propel a 338 to the same velocity.

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i will second that on powerbelts..NO MORE BORE BUTTER IN WINTER..

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I was a bit hasty, when I said the PB dissintigrated. Found it on the far shoulder lodged in the fat chunk in the arm pit:)













Found a few fragments when I was deboning also. Looks like about half the wieght is still there.

Might have to back that charge down another 10grains and see how she flys;)

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bullet held up pretty good. Mushroomed nicely.

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Lane,

I can hardly wait for you chrony results. Great report, good expansion, but lost alot of weight.

RE: Don't OverDrive PowerBelts-Pics
 

I was wondering, are the platinum powerbelts built with thicker jacketing? Just curious what the difference was why they made the plat series.

Talked to my dad today, he shot a deer last weekend with his 270gr plat powerbelt. he uses a pretty hot charge, 110gr of 777. As I expected, he reported the bullet did fragment into a few pieces (no pass through). I mentioned to him about some of the things said in the thread, but he seemed more than happy about his bullet exploading and 'doing lots of internal damage'. To each his own I guess. I would like to push the velocity up myself, but will be using something else, was just trying out the platinums this fall and was what I was sighted in for when the season came around.

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When I was using a 50cal, I always used 100grains of APP and the 295 PB's, with the longest shot at 60 yards. All deer dropped within 10-15 yards. Bullets all fraged. I say that is very acceptable results--dead deer. The bullets do exactly what they are intended for, expend all thier energy in the animal and knock the crap out of them:);)


In fairness, the plat's seem to have a thin coating over the standard copper jacket. They seem a little stiffer/harder to squash in my bench vise, side by side with the 275grainers.

I'm going to use the Platinum 45cal 300grain for the next/last deer I shoot this season, Lord willing;):)
I'll try to recover that bullet and post pics here.


I'll stick with the 70grains of powder, unless this weeks range/chrony results tell me different.

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Lane,
I understand where you are coming from, all your deer have dropped pretty close by and that is great. But, had they not dropped close by, you probably would have had a very difficult time tracking them. I consider myself a pretty good shot, you probably are too, but things happen and deer move, what if you hit it in the liver and only clip a lung or worse, hit it further back? That sucker could run for a loooong way. Heaven forbid that a big bruiser buck of a lifetime walk out and you pop it only to have him run off with little or no blood trail. That one happened to me last year, a quartering towards shot on a 130 class deer that went through the liver and both lungs. Deer went over 250 yards in some very thick stuff before I found it. At first, no blood trail at all and gradually it became a flood. I am certain that without two holes, I would have either never found the deer or would have found it a day or two later after the yotes and buzzards had found it.

In my job we concentrate allot of energy in minimizing factors that could cause bad things to happen. Once a factor/situation is identified (and can't be eliminated), then we put in place things so that if that "bad" thing happens we are either protected or have a way to deal with it. I look at hunting the same way. It is a risk/benefit kind of thing. I know that most of the deer I or my kids shoot will drop within 40 or 50 yards, but some of them can do some amazing things. When they do that "amazing" thing, like a heart shot deer runs 250 yards (I've seen that too) I want to make sure that I have something in place to deal with that situation. That thing for me is a hole in and a hole out so I can be as reasonably sure as possible of a good blood trail.
I am blessed right now to be in a great situation where I can hunt pretty much every day, between myself and my two sons, we kill 8 to 10 deer a year (could be waaay more). I usually get one or two with a bow, the boys occaisionally get one with their 20 gauge, but all the rest are with M/Lers. I know I am not an expert, nor have I seen everything that can happen with a M/Ler or deer, but when you shoot that many deer a year and hunt almost every day, help people track and clean deer almost every day, you see what works and what doesn't.

As far as the PBs go, I have said before and have no problem saying again that there is an easy fix to make them have better terminal peformance. The first step would be to make that cavern they call a hollow point smaller or no hollow point at all. It would give it a better ballistics and lessent the tendancy to frag. The second thing would be to thicken the copper wash and make it a real plating, especially around the lower half of the bullet. The third thing would be to harden the lead a bit. The mix they use is extremely soft. Maybe what they should do is have a new product called the "high velocity power belt". Employ these improvements and advertise it as such.

We still have about 6 weeks of hunting left here and the best is still yet to come.
Good luck
Hank

Hank

RE: Don't OverDrive PowerBelts-Pics
 

Hank - Good suggestions for improving the PB. However, as others have pointed out to me, one of the reasons for the PB having such soft lead is to improve accuracy. If you've ever seen a picture of a recovered lead PB, you'll notice the disting rifling marks on it. The rifling marks are usually very well defined and deep...this it where the PB gets its accuracy from. Others have speculated that the lead is so soft that upon firing, the lead actually operates along the plastic base.

If CVA was to increase the hardness of the PB lead, although improving the terminal performance of the bullet and lessening the chance of complete bullet dissentigration upon impact , my guess is that they lose their accuracy a bit.

I do like your idea about shrinking the size of the hollow point and putting some real copper plating on it and perhaps bonding it to the lead to prevent separation. The copper "paint" they use today is a joke IMO.

Anyway, very good ideas are blossoming here (and some real educational pics Lane)...someone should send a copy of this thread to CVA.

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Hunter John,

I think you are right on. So there is conundrum. One could drive them hard but the range would probably be reduced due to accuracy issues. Not to mention the fact that the bullet's would suffer for the purpose of low velocity impact, in fact, to use harder lead with 348 thru 444 PBs would ruin them in my way of thinking. I thinkHank is right about one thing though. Forthe 295 and lighter (.50 cal)bullets. Just get rid of the hollowpoint and the green aerotip and make a solid tip possessing the ogive of the aerotip. A person should be able to push themup to 1800 fps at the muzzlewithout major issues.

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I had a very different experience. Popped a doe in the shoulder at10 yards with a 410 gr. flat point this seasonand it destroyed the shoulder and made a silver dollar size hole on the way out the other side. With the hog I shot this year at 40 yards, the bullet entered at the base of the neck, destroyed the spine, angled through the skull and exited a little forward of the off side ear with a hole, again, the size of a silver dollar. I never could get a powerbelt to perform like that. Plus, I pay around $8 for 20 of the GP bullets vs. $14-$17 for 15 powerbelts. I'll keep shooting GP conicals for a while.

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I have had similar thoughts for years - in fact, I talked to the CVA folks about this at the 2005 SHOT show. My suggestion was to make a magnum powerbelt - that had a little antimony in the lead, and would make that "window" where the powerbelts obturate into the rifling a little higher on the velocity scale. They didn't seem too interested, citing their current bullet was the most popular on the planet.

But the new Platinum Powerbelt appears to be an effort to satisfy those exact same concerns . . . .

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to each your own thinking,if you use hollow point bullet YOU MUST PUT IT BEHIND SHOULDER OR IN NECK..

if you are type of hunter. like i hunt in,in thick laural of pa.possible running shot,brush in front of deer,hard to get side behind shoulder shot ,other hunters close on publicland, i would NOT use powerbelt unless you hunt like i do..

i only shoot at clear shot behind shoulder or in neck..if buck is any other direction,he walks..

this is why the MAXI-BALL 370 is best all around bullet for the .50 cal..you can load it hot or cold..it WILL ppunch hole thru a buck..it will break shoulder and keep on going..it will work on buck that is not in best postion for shot.

so, you may say, SPROUL, why dont you use it then?i dont like BORE BUTTER IN WINTER and i like to shoot my flintlock as light a charge as i can and still feel the bullet will open up..i only shoot behind shoulder or neck..

powerbelt does that at 80 grs,2f geox,bore button,295 pb,rmc v-peep,NO KICK..

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YOU ARE RIGHT ON..in .50 cal, the 348 pb is most likely the better bullet to use for buck,not the 295..i only use the 295 because it was real accurate,touched holes,i load DOWN in my flintlock and it opens upand i only take side or neck shot and NO KICK..

in fact, i read test somewhere that said in the .50 cal in-lines which i have no experience,they said NEVER use a powerbelt under 348 on deer..

if i was using inline, i would use the heaviest powerbelt made for it or go to maxi-ball or those other bullets that are mentioned on here..

no way i would use hollow point bullet pushed at high velocity..

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Not that I am a fan of the XTP but I did dig up the hollow point 185gr XTP that I shot at a doe with 150gr of pyrodex. I must say I am impressed that it held together nicely. This was my first year with a ML when I thought, wow, I can drop in 3 pellets of pyrodex and a light bullet and it will be just like a riffle! That mentality didnt make it through to the next season, but I must admit I had no problems with the combo, and took 2 deer with this setup my first year.




Last pic shows the Platinum PowerBelt on the right, which makes a bit bigger diameter with the extra 85gr of weight.

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range you shoot a deer at has a lot also to do with bullet that is left..bullet at 50 yds is going to look a lot different than one that hits deer at 150 yds..

i am surprised you found anything left of that hollow point..

do you feel the XTP is made harder than the powerbelt..

looking at pictures ,it looks like XTP metal looks more hard..

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In some states you have to use conical's, We are very fortunate to have powerbelts, A lot of the new rifles (if not all inlines)are made to shoot sabots. I shot 2 elk (4 times bigger than adeer)with 348 powerbelts, both died. I tried most every conical combination to shoot out of several Omega's none would group
at all. A powerbelt has to have soft lead so it can obturate, the skirt is only for looks it spins on the nipple and has to come off or accuracy goes south. The White rifle (which I used this year on a large bull) uses heavy conicals 460 or bigger and they are great. If you put a heavier coating it will cut down on how this bullet can work, it needs to obturate. Making the
leadharder will cause leading in the barrel. I believe and have proven in several rifles that you need to shoot the heaviest powerbelt there is, at least a 348.
I couldn't get the platinums to group at all.
Redclub

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i agree with you ,with no experience ,other than buck i got this year with 295 pb..

i read article on a hunter that tested the different powerbelts on whitetail..

he happened to use a .50 cal in-line which i have no experience with in-lines..

he said, do not use any PB under 348 in the .50 cal on whitetail deer..i may go to the 348 myself, next season..348 is almost same length as the maxi-ball 370 which was my best bullet,295 is much shorter..

295 shot best out of my 1-48 twist hawkins..

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Everyones got an opinion, I only tried the 270 PPB since it was recommended to my dad by a #1 blackpowder shooter in NYS, although he also said 270gr was the min he would go. Myself, 270gr is the heaviest I have shot a deer with, most with 250gr shockwaves, and so far none have complained.

For me the choice is simple. Shoot what is most accurate in your gun. I probably wouldnt shoot something less accurate for any reason. If you can get great groupings with a multitude of rounds, then you can get picky. There are very few bullets out there that would have a problem taking a whitetail... elk and such is a different story perhaps. But I would wory about getting a nice tight group far before who recommends what, etc. I tried the 338 PB (the heaviest sold locally - and hard to find sometimes) in my cheapie CVA Staghorn trying to improve its accuracy. It did not group any better than the cheaper 250gr shockwaves. I ended up buying a new gun. And after doing some searching online I found that the even lighter 220gr all lead dead center sabots were recomended for my gun: http://www.chuckhawks.com/knight_disc_elite.htm unfortunately they arent sold locally, I am going to try an order some in various weights and see how they perform next year, along with other sabots too. I havent yet found a bullet with accuracy I am happy with, if I dont this next year I may have to explore the possibility its the scope.