Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

I did a search and found a few threads discussing the Winchester Apex. There seems to be a love/hate relationship going on. A couple of friends and I have discussed doing some black powder hunting this fall/winter. If that happens, I need to buy a gun. Cabelas in Dundee, MI is 30 min. from where I work, so when I went to their website and saw the sale they have going right now, the Apex captured my attention for being what seems to be a decent gun at a decent price.

I've read a lot of replies saying not to get the Apex andgo for the Thompson Omega.With the sale price and giftcards I have, I can get thestainless barrel, blackcomposite stock, scope,scope rail and rings on theApex for $154. The Omega would be $284 with the same discounts applied for the gun ONLY. That is quite a price difference. My intent is to use this gun for a couple of weekends through the seasoneachDecember for whitetail, so this is by no means my primary firearm. However, these same buddies and I have played with the idea of a mule deer or elk hunt out west where this would probably be the firearm I use.My 12 ga. slug gun and .270 Win. probably aren't the best choices for that size game.

I'm just wonderingif the Apex owners here are still standing next to theirrifles, or are they sorry they bought it? I would be getting the .50 caliber shown here.

I don't mean to beat this topic to death, just trying to make a sound decision to meet my needs and not go poor before the holidays. Thanks!

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

I bought one recently from Bass Pro and am well pleased with it so far. It groups well with Powerbelt Platinums and T/C Cheapshot and is pretty easy to clean. I don't shoot a lot so I can't attest to the durability, but for someone who only hunts with a muzzleloader for one week of the season, it serves me well.

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

i'll be buying an Apex in about 2-3 weeks. I already own the winchester x-150 and its awesome. Zero problems. And for the camostock/ stainless steel barrel for $230, its a steal. Alot of people are still crying junk at cva/bpi for the old cva apollo barrel bursting problems and cant get a grip and move on. I havnt even found any reports about any new cva/bpi exploding. So therefore theylabel any riflewith a barrel made in spain "junk" Every muzzleloader on the market has issues thatneed to be worked out and so far, cva took care of the barrel problems or maybe i havnt seen any reports lately. But i love my winny, best money ive spent.The winchester for that price in an excellent deal. I'll be buying a $430 rifle for $230. How much more of a deal can you ask for lol.

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

I think it could be an ok ML but I prefer to get the best that I can. That way I'm never disappointed. I say to save for the Omega but it's just me. The price is great though. If you just want a suitable rifle and are not looking for anything phenomenal then go for it.

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

Should I consider the .45 rather than the .50?

This is what I understand so far -

.50 - more versatile, most common, greater number of loads available, easier to find loads/powder pellets/.50 cal specific accessories

.45 - more accurate than a .50, flatter trajectory, less common, harder to find loads/powder pellets/accessories

I live down the road from a Cabelas, Gander Mtn. and a couple other big hunting stores, so I'm not sure the concern with having a gun with harder to find rounds is that much of a "real" concern. Plus with mail order/internet, I should be able to find everything under the sun and have it shipped to my door.

Is the range on a .45 that much greater than a .50? Thanks

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

If you ever dream of hunting elk out west, get the .50 caliber. Some States do not allow the .45 caliber. Also there is nothing the .45 caliber can do that the .50 caliber can not match. As for your choice of weapon, well you have to be the final judge on that. I personally would go with the Omega. If you can wait for a while I think you might be able to find one cheaper then what you found.

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

Midway USA has omega z 5 for 264.oo and free shipping

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

Last year at the close of season some members of this forum were finding Omega Z5's for $169.00 and if memory serves me I think one got one for like $109.00 which was incredible. Even though I do not need an Omega, for that kind of money I would be hard pressed not to purchase one.

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

50 caliber is always best. Easier to find bullets for in small towns and plus like the other guy said, if u want to hunt elk, a lot of states want a 50 or larger. I think cabelas website has them for $200 in blue/blue or camo/ss barrel for $230.

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

Both the Omega and the Apex are good guns. I ended up going with the Apex for my son. We had checked both out and the feel of the Apex was better in both our opinions. I could not tell enough difference in the fit and finish to justify the much higher price. The palm swell on the stock grip of the Apex is nice and more cofortable in the hand and the gun came up to the cheek with the sights right where they needed to be, the Omega sights were too low and the gun needed to be raised to line them up (at least for my son and I). I like the fact that the Apex has 2 recoil lugs, that will make it easy to float the barrel if needed and the quality is better than other BPI products as far as the fit goes. We ended up getting a lightly used camo/SS version for $175, I wish I had waited for this sale as I could have gotten a new one for just a little more but oh well, I still got a good deal and it shot under 4" groups at 200 yards with the first load I tried.

The bottom line is, try them both on for size and see what fits you best. Get the one you like best and you'll be happy. Good luck.

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

I looked one of these over very thoroughly this afternoon. Great trigger. Breech block fits very tight against the back of the barrel. Ramrod also fits tight - no rattling like some of my T/C guns. QLA equipped. Nice balance. If this gun shoots a good group, it looks like a great bargain. Roskoe.

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

No one has mentioned what happens on the outside chance of you getting a "lemon" of a gun, which happens with any manufacturer from time to time. I assume that since Winchester is out of business, you have no recourse and there is no one to do warranty work if you have a problem?

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

Winchester Muzzleloading is a member of the Black Powder Inc. family along with CVA, Powerbelt, Quake Industries, and Durasight Sighting Systems. So if there were a problem with a Winchester Rifle I would guess that it would be sent to Norcross, GA where all the CVA's are also repaired. Again, this is only a guess.

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

My first winchester came to me in perfect working shape and 4 years later its still going strong. As for warranty, Winchester offered me freenew sights for mine when i was asking them about any other styles they had. My eyes are really bad and i had a hard time seeing the front. They are very high quality made, they just dont advertise like they should be doing. Then again, ive noticed that T/C's ad's have slowed down a lot of tv. Either way, if something ever does happen, Winchester will take care of it Asap.

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

But since the company "Winchester" is now out of business, where does that leave you? If cayugad is correct, then there is no problem. Anyone know for sure?

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

I stopped by Cabelas in MI and they were out of the Apex but did confirm a couple things. I do not like the feel of the Omega. The drop of the butt stock wasn't enough for me. The sister CVA to the Apex did feel good. They also told me that the Apex has been discontinued and they don't plan to, nor do they have the ability torestock. Since the gun is listed on their site, I called Cabelas mailorder and they did not have any in stock. I'm not really sure why they are listed but not in stock, with no possibility of being in stock.

The restock issue makes sense if Winchester Muzzleloading is now out of business. Is it just Winchester Muzzleloading that isaffected?

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

"But since the company "Winchester" is now out of business"

Browning bought winchester. The muzzleloader winchester has nothing to do with the actual company, just like remmington. Its just a new name to add to the others. Winchesters are built by BPI not winchester. Like the apex is modeled after the cva kodiak but the winchester brand offers better quality/ barrels/stocks. Even sights and recoil pads. So winchester going out of business has no affect on getting parts for the muzzleloaders seeing how they are not made by winchester. Just a sticker and engraving on the barrel. Email cva/bpi if you want a straight answer.

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

I think Remington did essentially the same thing with its Genesis muzzle loader. It is patterned after the Traditions Yukon - but with a longer barrel - and, if you believe the advertising, a better barrel.

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

I have an Apex 50cal. I love it. Just put a Bushnell 3-9x40 scope on. Shoots very accurately at both 50 and 100 yards. I shoot 250gr. T/C Shockwaves with 100 gr of T7 pellets

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

Well, my hopes of getting an Apex at a good price may be crashing and burning. No availability and company going out of business doesn't sit well with me. I like to buy American, so maybe this availability issue is the gods telling me to look at something else. I looked at CVA but the only offering I found with a SS barrel was nearly the same price as a SS Knight.

Can a Green Mtn. barrel be placed on a CVA? If I go to the CVA website, they show some SS barrel upgrade options, so I'm wondering if Green Mtn. also makes an upgrade. I'm not certain what can or can not be swapped on these guns.

Thanks!

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

zuren1cs

Why not consider an Omega z5 for around $260... or even a Traditions Yukon @ $149 to @199

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/search/search.asp?r=Page%3A+%2FDefault.asp+KW+Box&s=S EARCH&a=search&k=traditions+yukon

Then there are sarting to be some decent reports on the the Remington Genesis which does come with a stainless barrel.

http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catalog.TextId?hvarTextId=82246&hvarTarget=sea rch&cmCat=SearchResults

Good luck in your search...

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

In looking around the web I have found no evidence that Winchester Muzzleloading is going out of business.

U.S. Repeating Arms which is one of several companies that have licensed the Winchester name has closed it's New Haven, CT manufacturing plant and will not be building several of the Winchester models anymore but even that company is not completely out of business, just scaled back.

Winchester Muzzleloading is owned by BPI who markets the Winchester line of muzzleloaders under license from Olin who owns the Winchester name and ammo manufacturing. I also cannot find any info on the Apex being out of production. I have been happy with the Apex I bought my son and am impressed with the quality of the rifle.

If there is any verifiable info about them closing or discontinueing production that someone knows about I would be interested in seeing it.

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

To be honest, I just purchased an Apex. I am sure the higher priced guns have some features that the Apex doesnt, however, I cant see how you can beat a rifle that shoots very well, is easy to clean, and fits well for $179.88. I have very limited ML experance, but I find this deal hard to beat.

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

Where did you read this? Their webpage on the Apex has been recently upgraded. For a company that's about to go out of business, they wouldn't update their website.

Winchester Centerfire Rifles and Winchester Muzzleloaders are unrelated - no ties whatsoever. The Winchester name for muzzleloading was sold to the owners of CVA 5-6 years ago.

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

I think whats going on is what they did with the x-150, cabelas in 2003 advertised them and once they were out, they didnt restock them and therefore you buy from winchester. I bought mine from cabelas in 03 and a year later you couldnt find one on cabelas website or cataloge. If they are making a new upscaled Apex, thats more than likely why they did the sale, get the old models out and the new ones in. :(I guess i dont get an Apex from cabelas. I tried emailing them but i got an email back telling me they do not accept emails on hollidays. I guess i'll resend it monday and see what they say.

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

It may be possible the X-150 has been discontinued. That webpage has not been updated since 2002. Plus, bolt-actions are real slow sellers these days in the ML lineup.

http://www.winchestermuzzleloading.com/products/index.htm

But the Apex webpage looks new.... even mentioning Copyright 2006 there.

http://www.winchestermuzzleloading.com/products/apex.htm

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

Based on comments above, comments from other threads I've found, no evidence of the Win. X-150 being available and lack of availabilityof the APEX, that's where my going out of business comment came from. The guy at the Cabela's gun counter took the item number of the APEX to his computer and told me it was out of stock, discontinuedby Winchester and no chance of ever having it in stock. He also claimed that since it was a discontinued item, Cabela's eliminates it from their nationwide stock database so he can't see if another store would haveone. Not sure if I buy that one, but this is what he claims. When I calledCabela's Mailorder, they claim it's backordered. I just emailed Winchester Muzzleloading. If I don't have an answer by the close of business on Mon., I'll call.

During all of this ithas come to my attention that MI has laws against buying guns over the internet, so I have to be able to walk in somewhere and buy it. But thanks for the links!

I have handled a Rem. Genesis and wasn't impressed. I do not like their TorchCam opening. Ittakes a little more effort than the "flip of your thumb" that they claim, plus there are scope clearance concerns.

As far as the website, thatcould have been updated Jan. 1 and it's now 11 months later. Companies do stupid "business as usual" projects all the time when stuff is about to hit the fan. In my shopping around, I have not encountered a X-150 which makes me wonder if it was discontinued. A company with 2 potentially discontinued firearms out of 2 ever offered sounds like business trouble to me!

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

they still make the x-150, u just have to call winchester's number and order one. I emailed them a month ago asking if they still made them and they said that they do and the guy gave me a # to call to order a new one or Refurbished rifle. This site is updated for 2006
http://www.winchestermuzzleloading.com/products/x150.htm

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

Three months ago, I purchased a new CVA Youth Stalker 50-cal over the internet. Got it around 10 days later. I live a half-hour north of Detroit.

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

zuren1cs

Here's another source for the Winchester Apex.

http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catalog.TextId?hvarTextId=48924&hvarDept=400&a mp;hvarEvent=&hvarClassCode=3&hvarSubCode= 1&hvarTarget=browse

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

Well, I’m feeling a little foolish being the new guy around here spreading some misinformation. I’ll try to set the record straight:

Winchester Muzzleloading going out of business – the jury is still out on this one. I sent an email to Win. MLing/BPI and got an auto-response that they would get to me in 5-7 days. It still seems odd to me that you have to call the company directly to buy one of their guns. Most people buy a gun after they get their hands on it.

Muzzleloader can’t be shipped to MI – this is only half true. I looked through some ATF laws and didn’t find what I was looking for. I called Cabela’s and spoke to someone who was more knowledgeable. Turns out that I can have a ML shipped to me, you just have to call and go through a different dept. that can deal with different forms that need to be faxed back and forth to place the order. The website doesn’t tell you this, just says “this item cannot be shipped to your address”. So I’m dealing with the paperwork now.

The first guy I spoke with at Cabela’s wouldn’t backorder the gun for me, this new guy did. So right now I have a stainless APEX on backorder through Cabela’s mail order with scope mounted and delivered to my door for $169 (had gift cards to use). Even if the gun isn’t the same quality as a T/C, Knight, etc., $169 for a stainless outfit like this is hard to beat to get started.

Again, sorry for any misinformation that was spread. Seems that a good portion of the info I’ve been getting hasn’t been 100% accurate.

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

You'll enjoy it. I had to back down from buying one after i bought 3.42 gears and a eaton series 2 posi traction differential for my 71 buick skylark lol. I dont manage my money very good when it comes to my car. Did i forget to mention that its getting a new modded motor? lol. As for the quailty, that winchester for $169 you bought will be the best ML'er you'll own for that price. Ive been searching for reviews and most guys that are shooting them are shooting 1inch groups @ 100 yards with open sights. One guy was shooting 3/4" groups @100 with a scope. Winchesters quality is greatly improved over the cva/traditions brand. Those rifles are built solid. The only thing you'll probably want to change out is the sling, its good and all, but when u are walking with it for a few hours it tends to hurt your shoulder after a while. Just because its made in spain doesnt mean it cant hang with the bigger names. Look at those $700 tc's getting sent in for trigger adjustments.

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

Does the Apex have a QLA, and therefore the same potential for problems shooting conicals that the Omega has?

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

Yeah they have a QLA but do not have the problems the omega has. They shoot conicals with out any problems. My winchester with 90gns pyro rs and 385gn great plains conical got 2" groups @ 100yards. I dont have a shooting rest so its either off a tree limb or the 4 wheeler seat or even a fence line. I think im going to change to shooting off a fence line, ive been getting better accuracy.

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

Hey, maybe we can market a portable fence instead of shooting sticks! LOL. Have there been no reports of Winchesters having a problem with conicals? I say this because we bought 3 Omegas at the same time. 2 of them shoot conicals with no problem, and 1 doesn't.

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

None that i can find. All the guys with the 50cal apex are either using sabots or powerbelts and shooting great groups. portable fence line, lmao. It would be a hell ofa lot cheaper than those shooting sticks thats for sure! We use that fencing with the square hole and i make a dent in the right hand bottom corner and lay my rifle barrel in there and its one of the steadiest rests ive used so far. But i have not read any bad reports of the apex or anything bad about shooting conicals. Every cva/bpi gun i have shot has always been pick one bullet/powder and you're ready.

RE: Winchester Apex owners; updated opinions?
 

I got a response from BPI, see the quote below. Nothing like proper punctuation and sentence structure......:eek:

Quote:

---

we have the guns here and you can order from us with a major charge card, when older models are closed out everyone thinks we are going out of business as far as I know we are still selling the muzzleloaders and I have not heard of any shut down.

---