150 grains of 777 in an CVA Optima Pro .45?
 

I have done this, with the 225 grain powerbelt aerotip bullets. I have just joined this forum, but had read several posts where folks thought that the pellets were too powerful. When I bought them, I thought 150 is 150 (grains).

Now I don't consider myself a crack shot, but at 100 yards, I can shoot a 3 inch group with this set up. I have shot a nice buck and a doe at about 75 yards. Recoil is not that much of an issue bec the optima pro has a 29 inch barrel and is pretty heavy.

What am I missing?

Thanks,
Jesse

Thanks

RE: 150 grains of 777 in an CVA Optima Pro .45?
 

It is what I am missing. I get just as good of accuracy, with very little more drop and a WHOLE lot less kick. I also get just as good of performance on game (promise)and I spend less money. One of my elk loads is 90 grains of 777 (loose powder) and a 348 grain powerbelt. More than enough power to take an elk. Of course I don't shoot past 150 yards.

And I am also missing the worry that someday the end of the gun might split open on a shot with 150 grains. Have heard of that happening with this line of muzzleloaders.

Hey, but if it does, you can sue the pants off them since they advertize it as a 150 grain gun.

RE: 150 grains of 777 in an CVA Optima Pro .45?
 

You're still listening to people who owned the old cva apollo. Stop living in the past and move on. a .45 with 150 grains powder and a light weight bullet is over kill in my opinion, But if you are happy with the groups you are getting, stick with it. No point in changing something thats getting the job done. cva is a hell of a lot better than they were 20-30 years ago. You cant letone bad egg spoil the rest. If that was the case, chevy, ford and dodge would have gone out of business many years ago :D

RE: 150 grains of 777 in an CVA Optima Pro .45?
 

click on this link and then go down to "safety" and read a couple of articles:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2h.muzzleloader.htm

It just doesn't seem to be worth it when I get great performance at around 100 grains, I don't flinch from the recoil, and I don't have a stiff neck the next day. That said, your powder/bullet combo in that gun is probably safer than my drive home tonight........

RE: 150 grains of 777 in an CVA Optima Pro .45?
 

ive already read that. RW is a slob, hes an ass like toby bridges lol. ive shot hundreds of magnum loads with loose powder and zero problems. The only problem ive ever had with my rifle was getting a scope sighted in, and that sucker got ripped off after 15 shots and nothing snowing up. Damn simmons scopes, did the same thing on my 30-30. The latest barrel explosion ive read was when some moron put 150 grains in a non magnum rifle and a huge 410 great plains bullet and the tip of the barrel ripped open. Yeah the TIP of the barrel, how? Im still wondering why/how the tip would rip before the rear of the barrel. As for recoil, lots of guys like these 6 1/2- 7lb rifles because they are light and then they load huge bullets and complain about the recoil, what did they think they were going to get with a light rifle? lol. My rifle is 8 1/4 lbs, heavy to carry after a few hours but worth it when it comes to magnum loads, helps steady the rifle. After all didnt one of those high dollar knight rifles expolde in toby's hands?

RE: 150 grains of 777 in an CVA Optima Pro .45?
 

No gun is entirely safe - but some are safer than others in web reports. There's been alot more than just one incident involving CVA/Winchester MLs. Those six articles in Chuck Hawks should be read. Kinda' why I preach 100 grain loads in Spanish MLs like CVA, Winchester & Traditions. I own four Spanish guns. None see more than 100 grains. Two pellets are fine to around 175 yards with heavier bullets &plenty of practice on the bullet travel arch. I shoot a 435 grainmonster Buffalo sabot with only 80 grains of 777. It's roughly 4" low at 150 yards when I sight-in 3' high at 100 yards.

As Cayugad used to always say in his signature....
"Lets Be Safe Out There"

RE: 150 grains of 777 in an CVA Optima Pro .45?
 

if so many cva's are blowing up these days, why doesnt RW make a list of cva rifles that are "exploding"? He mentions the Apollo but nothing else, i figured he would list all the cva's that have major barrel explosion problems seeing how he is such a looker outer for people.As for a winchester/ new frontier blowing up, i havnt even found one thread or any issues about the winchester brand expoloding. RW was simply listing all BPI brands as barrel exploders. Which is not true at all. I bet you anything, that guys first muzzleloader was a cva. But now hes does TC bcuz they paymore ;)

RE: 150 grains of 777 in an CVA Optima Pro .45?
 

Ok, thanks for the replies. The articles did give a little more information, but their was really no specifics on the pressure 777 gave compared to the other brands (not that I noticed). There are obviously a few more highly publicized incidents with older CVA's, but I didn't see any recent ones. The fluted barrel I have seems ok to me, but I am not that knowledgeable of their tolerances.

The kick is minimal on that load. I am telling you it shoots in between my .270 and 30-06. I have spent a day shooting it and wasn't sore, but other than shooting skeet all day, I have never really been sore from shooting the guns I own. I do agree it may be a little overkill, but I hunt borders of properties, and I really don't want the deer running that far (sorry to all you diehards, but most of us don't want to track it that far). They don't if you go through both lungs. I have had a .50 traditions that I was shooting and had problems taking down deer with 100 grains of pyrodex and 295 grain bullet.

I am out of my current supply of powder, but still have the bullets. What are your thoughts on moving to 4 of the 30 grain pellets or going back to 3 of the 50 grain pellets of the regular pyrodex?

I see there are a lot of "power belt" haters out there (not just here, and obviously this Randy fella that wrote those articles). What bullet would be recommended that is in between? Remember I am shooting a .45 caliber BP.

I am not impervious to change, however, it has worked so far...As most are, I am extremely cautious. The aspect of gunpowder being un-contained makes me nervous.

Thx

RE: 150 grains of 777 in an CVA Optima Pro .45?
 

If you can use sabots in your state, i'd ask around and find one. Other than powerbelts, theres the 285 grain great plains bullet for the .45, tc maxi hunter, tc maxi ball. I wouldnt use either of those TC bullets in a .45, i used them my first year muzzleloading with a .45 and they just plain sucked when they hit deer. I lost a huge one thanks to the maxi ball. Thats all the bullets i can find in the cabelas bible. A lot more choices for a .50cal.

RE: 150 grains of 777 in an CVA Optima Pro .45?
 

Just need an obstruction near the muzzle. For example, mud, a second projectile only crowned and not rodded, a ram rod dangling in the bore near the muzzle (though I think that unlikely to go unnoticed). Possibly a single projectile only crowned ( don't think that would cause it either cause I done that accidentally on a few occasions. My sense is that it is unlikelyto split the muzzle without something at the muzzlepreventing a projectile from freely exiting.

RE: 150 grains of 777 in an CVA Optima Pro .45?
 

Just one point,do not confuse 3 50 gr equivlent pellets with 150 gr loose, they are not the same the loose is the original 777, The pellets give the same velocity as an equal amout of pyrodex as I understand it. The strain gage reads that 110 loose FFF puts out more strain than 3 pellets. I only test once as I barrowed the pellets from someone that just happened to be on the range when I was doing some testing,I personally would not load more than 120 gr of 777 in any thing.
You might ask Triple Se7en
Lee

RE: 150 grains of 777 in an CVA Optima Pro .45?
 

txhunter i read that loose is more powerful than the 50 grained tripple 777 sticks

RE: 150 grains of 777 in an CVA Optima Pro .45?
 

Yes, that is correct. Read Lemoyne's post above. He explains that.

The easiest thing to keep in mind is that 777 loose is about 15% "hotter" than black powder or pyrodex. For example 100 grains of loose 777 equals 115 grains of pyrodex, etc.

RE: 150 grains of 777 in an CVA Optima Pro .45?
 

Randy Wakeman is certainly a very opinionated guy, but he lists at least 4 incidents with this type of rifle. Don't think he is lying about that. I have yet to hear of ONE incident with T/C, Knight, etc.

Just because your rifle is safe and has no problems, doesn't mean that the next lot off the line might not.

All I am saying is why not try 90-120 grains? If you get the same accuracy and performance on game, why spend the extra money on powder? I have a T/C Omega and have never even tried above 120 grains (black powder equivalent)because I see no need, for me personally.

RE: 150 grains of 777 in an CVA Optima Pro .45?
 

As far as I know, you'd be correct on everything you said above. My sense is that pellets,for their weight, help to reduce pressures. They seem todo this byexposing a more limited area to burning in the early stages of burning. As they burn, they will tend to granulate exposing an increasing surface area to flame. Pelletizing powder seems tohelp to burn a given weight of propellant progressively, meaning that, the rate of burn is slower in the beginning and increases for a period of time after ignition. For a given weight, loose powder will peak sooner in time (at a smallerbreech volume)leading to higher peak pressure. So a charge of pellets will have a broader pressure curve with a lower peak pressure while the same weight in granulated powder will have a spikier pressure curve and higher peak pressure. Of course I think this describes the design for loads which are approved by Hodgdon. If you load beyond their recommendations,then I don't have an opinionabout whats going on.

On the subject of .45 cal. The .50 cal bore has approximately 24% more bore area than the .45 cal. bore. This means for bullets of the same sectional density, one can, in theory, increase the charge in the 50 cal by 24% (with respect to the .45 charge) and yield the same peak pressure and the same muzzle velocity. Say you shoot 240 grain bullet in the .45 cal with 80 grains, peak pressures and muzzle velocitieswill be similiar to a .50 cal loaded with a 300 grain bullet and 100 grains.

On the other hand,load 150 grains of Pyro pellets and a 275 PB in a .45 cal.THEN thats like (in terms of expected peakpressure) loading 180 grains of Pyro pellets and a 348 PB in a 50 cal. These loads not approved by Hodgdon nor recommended by me.

Loading 100 grains RS and a 325 conical in the 45 cal, is like loading 120 grains RS under a410 grain GP in a 50 cal. These loads also not approved by Hodgdon nor recommended by me.

For the waysome folks load, pressures are running higher in .45 cal rifles than they may expect they are.