American Pioneer 3f loose
 

I've been trying different powder out that I normally can not get my hands on. I had the opportunity to pick a number of different brands and grades of powder, last month on a shopping spree.

The last couple days I have been testing American Pioneer Powder 3f. I was under the impression it would react a lot like Pinnacle 3f but I could not be more wrong. I tried it in over six different rifles total.

So far the powder did poor in the conical department with a couple conical rifles. I would rate it at moderate accuracy with three different sabot rifles. In fact I was trying the same loads that Pinnacle produced excellent accuracy with, and discovered the powder did not behave at all the same in the rifles Pinnacle does.

Today to finish off the pound I got out three traditional rifles. I was sure that with roundball it would behave better. Again, not only was the accuracy not there, but misfires and hang fires were very common. I then suspected it might be the caps. So I changed from CCI to RWS 1075 caps. Still the misfires with two different rifles. So to finally prove it was the powder I got out some Goex. The Goex was perfect for the ignition and accuracy returned in both rifles.

So overall I am not real impressed with American Pioneer 3f. I am sure some of you have had better results with it then I have. Just thought I would post my results.

RE: American Pioneer 3f loose
 

Not very encouraging . . . . I have some 3F Shockey Gold - supposedly the same animal as APP. Have only tried it with one load - 200 gr. Shockwave (50/40) with 110 gr. in my Black Diamond XR. It initially shot very well. Got almost 2400 fps. Later I got some wandering zero issues that I now think were related to mylack of understanding oftheneed to not swab between shots. I may revisit this load sometime this winter when things slow down a little.

RE: American Pioneer 3f loose
 

Cayugad

I usually get great results with APP, as you probably already know from my other posts. I wonder, how much pressure did you use while compressing the loads? I've learned to really put my weight into it, but not so much as to deform the tips of most bullets. APP/Shockeys Gold/Pinnacle all seem to behave better when Very Firmly Compressed.

Powerbelts are different; you can compress those loads until they don't go any more

But perhaps APP has fallen on some bad Quality Control as of late. I'll pick up a fresh pound from BassPro and see what’s up. I've got 4lbs of Pinnacle and 1 of Shockey's Gold left. We shot all our deer from the last 2 years with S. Gold, and with great results on the range with 80grains pushing 225 Powerbelts and CCI primers.

Thanks again for the detailed report, and I really appreciate your candidnessand thorough test reports with multiple smoke poles.:)

RE: American Pioneer 3f loose
 

I will admit, I did not force the projectile down onto the powder. I seated them like any other projectle, just snug on the charge. Perhaps that was my mistake. I guess I will practice with the next pound of it (I bought two pounds of each kind of powder... :D) and try your suggestion..

thanks

RE: American Pioneer 3f loose
 

this is why i stick with what works for me. No reason to switch powder and pay more and later on find out its not going to work out. I only use pyrodex RS in my inline and Goex in my flintlock. No problems with pyrodex in all the years ive been shooting the stuff.

RE: American Pioneer 3f loose
 

I never had all that much luck with 3 fff either; but the two FF does such a good job for me that only in my pistols do I use anything else.
I also find about 60 pounds of compacting pressure necessary for tight grouping.Lee

RE: American Pioneer 3f loose
 

Again, maybe I was not seating the bullet hard enough. When I used to shoot Clean Shot, it worked just fine, but that was 2f grade. It shot very accurate. I just wanted to see if I could pull a little more speed out of things and see what would happen. You might be on to something with the courser grade and pressure as was already suggested.. thanks



frontier gander I could not agree with you more about sticking with something that works, Which is why I was able to break out the Goex and shoot groups to double check the powder. I personally like to test different powders, and projectiles to see if they might be better then what I am currently using, and just for the fun of it. But Pyrodex and Goex have always been good stand bye powders for me in the past as well.

RE: American Pioneer 3f loose
 

That's too bad. I never tried any APP, but used Clean Shot back when it was on the market, and never had those kinds of problems with it. I used it with the original-style 295-grain .50 Powerbelts, and it shot pretty well.

Is it possible the batch you had was contaminated with moisture? It sure sounds like it might have been.......

RE: American Pioneer 3f loose
 

anything is possible.. I will see how the next jug fires off.

RE: American Pioneer 3f loose
 

Well not willing to give up, I took the new jug out today and shot it in the Knight Disc and the Black Diamond XR and a Renegade with a Stainless Steel GMB on it. The American Pioneer Powder did not let me down, it shot all over the place. I tried soft seating pressure, moderate seating pressure, and he man seating pressure. All to no avail. I was shooting at 100 yards and the APP shot about a 5 inch group. Actually that's not quite accurate... two rounds I could not find. I was shooting at a corner bulls eye with the Disc and the Black Diamond.

The strange thing is it would lay two in the bull and then throw one way out of bounds. I even tried swabbing and that only made it worse I think....

To make sure it was the powder and not the rifle I broke out my final supply of Pyrodex Pellets.. :D I figured these things have been around the house too long, and needed to be sent down range. The Knight with the same shockwave as the APP and the same load (two pellets or 100 grains) (although I shot a couple three pellet loads just to get kicked around). It shot a 2" group with the Knight and the Black Diamond shot just over a 2" group as I had a flyer.

With the open sights and the Renegade with the Stainless Steel Barrel I was shooting 85 grains of APP 3f and 200 grain 10mm XTP's. Actually it did better I thought in the Renegade then the other rifles. The trouble is I had two misfires and a nasty (dangerous actually) hangfire that only went down range because I failed to move off the bag.

I think I will try this APP 3f in my smoothbore next with birdshot.. accuracy there is not all that critical since I intend to spray the woods.. should do real well there...

RE: American Pioneer 3f loose
 

Thanx Cayugad... I was comtemplating giving some of the APP a try.. but now I won't waste my $$$.

RE: American Pioneer 3f loose
 

Maybe I have not found the magic formula to making it work. You might get it and have it shoot perfect. When I used to shoot Clean Shot in 2f that stuff shot just fine. Maybe I will have to get a pound of the 2f and see how that behaves.. Until then I will stick to the Triple Se7en, Pyrodex, and Goex.

RE: American Pioneer 3f loose
 

Cayugad there are a couple problems here: (1) This stuff doesn't perform well in traditional rifles. The coarse grains and high ignition temp make it less than ideal. I used to shoot 3f APP through my hawken for awhile before switching back to Pyrodex recently for more positive ignition and power(it was worth the mess). It takes too long for the APP to get fired and going to deliver much power and accuracyin a sidelock. Although, it does perform quite well with hot 209 primers in inline rifles. (2) Your grain is 3f. The answer for me with APP has been 2f in not only my 2 inlines but one my friends inlines also when we were experimenting. I'm just passing the tips that I've already hassled through myself :DMy omega/kodiak prefer a 120gr charge and a 250gr shockwave; this groups under 2" consistently. Also, don't swab; I only swab once every 3 shot group, and shoot on a dry barrel the first after that.

RE: American Pioneer 3f loose
 

what mess does pyrodex have? i clean out my rifle with 4 to 5 patches on an average. last month i shot 9 shots total and it took 6 patches, and that includes the patch to oil the barrel. Nice thread tho, i almost bought some APP myself :D.. I'll stick to what works for me now.

RE: American Pioneer 3f loose
 

Mess=swab between shots for easy and consistent shooting. Mess=6 patches instead of2.

RE: American Pioneer 3f loose
 

Only Mr. Gander would insinuate that Pyrodex fouls as cleanly as other subs. Those six patches for an entire cleaning with Pyrodex must be an attribute toMr. Gander'sTraditions Kentucky bore wall linings-quality that removes the Pyrodex filth so easily & effectively.

Don't ever do a non-thorough job cleaning Pyrodex fouling Mr. Gander. It's the most corrosive blackpowder substituteavailable. It's even more corrosive than real blackpowder.It's as dirty as real blackpowder - fouls as much & attacks unproperly cleaned nooks& crannies on the barrel's exterior -- turning it to rust -in days - not weeks.

But there is good news with Pyrodex. It's very reasonably priced & one of the most overall & accurate blackpowder subs.


Thompson Center Arms -- Triple Se7en Powder -- Buffalo Bullet Co.

RE: American Pioneer 3f loose
 

I got much better accuracy from the APP FFg than I did with the APP FFFG.

I'm glad to see this post. It confirms the experience I had.

RE: American Pioneer 3f loose
 

actually triple, my traditions is a flintlock and only a moron would try to shoot any new powder in a flintlock. Been there done that, but only because i had no choice at the time. And i never said pyrodex cleaned out easier than any other sub, i stated that i have no problems with pyrodex build up and it wipes out easily for me. Wouldnt you rather run 5 patchs than spend $26 on powder that doesnt work for you? By the way, in the other post u referred to yourself as an expert. What makes you an expert? Besides you agreeing with what other people say and besides you buying powder/ bullets and other rifles with your own money. If you were a real expert, these places would be GIVING you these items. Got any books or movies out? Make any of your own rifles from scratch like Experts do? Those ready built kits dont count. As to my post about pyrodex, i just stated that i dont really ever get any build up with pyrodex. What ever they use on the greta plains bullets really seems to cut it down a lot. As for my kentucky which u were referring to earlier, i used goex 3f in it and after scrubbing out witha brush and about 7-8 patchs " depending on how many shots i take" Its as clean as a whistle. Give her a squirt of rem oil on a patch, swab it down, and run 1 more dry patch and im finished. Oh are you an expert because you buy TC?

RE: American Pioneer 3f loose
 

I think what Triple 7 is trying to tell you here is that these quick clean jobs are eventually going to ruin your barrel. It has happened to several friends of mine. You can get away with the non-thorough routine a few times; but at some point you are going to have to do the hot soapy water thing with detailed cleaning and follow it up with light oil. Even stainless guns can't resist the corrosive properties of real black powder, Pyrodex, and most other substitutes for long. We are trying to help you here - provide the benefit of experience.

Back to the subject: I'm using 2F Jim Shockey Gold (premium APP from what I understand)and am very satisfied with it so far. Good groups - consistent zero. I'm using an inline gun with shotgun primers, and the new platinum powerbelts. I also got good results with Shockwaves in my Black Diamond XR. Hard to believe the 3F is that erratic, or hard to ignite for that matter. I'm still wondering if Cayugad got a bad batch of powder.

RE: American Pioneer 3f loose
 

You would not believe the number of morons who only use FFFF in the pan -- then powders like 777 FFF for the remaining powder load. You really are green behind the ears.

Yes you did insiunuate that! Did you not brag that you can clean with 5 patches of Pyrodex?

Just the opposite is occuring! You are the minority here. Pyrodex sales are way-way down. ML shooters are paying 777, APP, Pinnacle, Shockey-prices at an unbelievable rate. The ones that aren't are still buying real blackpowder instead. What's keeping Pyrodex in the black is their pellet powder options.

Please copy & paste that post here. But promise me this first? If you are lying, then please go away. You are an inexperienced MLing imbecile thatgets under the collar ofexperienced MLauthors, writers, reviewers and ML teacherswho read your ridiculousposts.

[size=2]
Thompson Center Arms -- Triple Se7en Powder -- Buffalo Bullet Co.

RE: American Pioneer 3f loose
 

7 years with pyrodex and have had no issues with my barrels. I make sure to use a tooth brush to clean out the treads to the breech plug and then grease them. As for many using APP in their flintlocks, Ive come across other threads on the net and so far, goex is the best powder to use to insure positive ignition. And pyrodex's sales are way down? COOOL! lol.. maybe if they stop making it, i can geta whole bunch for really cheap. And i did not brag, I simply said that i clean my rifle out with between 5 to 6 patchs and was wondering what mess pyrodex makes. Probably makes big mess back east with the humidity but i dont really have any issues in colorados dry weather. You still didnt answer my question about what makes you an expert.

RE: American Pioneer 3f loose
 

That is to bad because i am shooting Amp triple f and have had good luck with it. I have killed deer 150+ yards right were i wanted the bullet to go. How many grains are you shooting that might be the problem, im shooting 85grains with a 250 grain shockwave. It seems to work with me, and you usally stick with what is working, right.