T/C and Shockwaves
 

Hello everyone. I am new to this board.I have found it very interesting. I am from SW VA and an avid muzzleloader hunter.I have hunted with a Knight Wolverine for several years but I moved up to a T/C Encore 50cal.last year.I tried the T/C Shockwaves in my Knight but was very dissappointed. The accuracy was great but the bullets would not expand on deer. I went back to the XTP MAG 240. I still want to try the shockwaves and I just bought a box of 200gr. Did I Make a mistake? What about 777 or APP? Which one do you guys prefer? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

RE: T/C and Shockwaves
 

StriperGuy

I have heard this same story about the SST/SW, especially at close range and at the velocity that you are shooting the bullet. Where this bullet really shines is at long range shots... 100 yards and beyond - the higher BC of this bullet makes it a lot less difficult to shoot those longer ranges + at the longer ranges and the lower velocities the bullet seems to work great....

But not to fear,Hornady makes a 10mm 200grain XTP, that you can buy in bulk, - this bullet will really work in those close range situations and will shoot very well out to 150 yards, well actually further but you have to start compensating for drop...

I have been shooting this bullet a lot this year using 110 grains of T7-2f and a blue MMP 50/40 sabot, it really does perform well. I will use it this year during a late season deer hunt and I will use it with a lot of confidence.

Good luck...

RE: T/C and Shockwaves
 

I've been using shockwaves for 3 years now, the 250 grain bullets.
From the closest of about 35 or 40 yards to nearly 200, I have had nothing but great performance.
I load pretty hot too, 130 grainsof 777 loose.

Exactly what are your powder loads and how do you know the bullets did not expand? Did you recover any?
I have heard people say things like this, but generally they say they shot a deer and never recovered it, then blame it on the bullet and say it did not perform.

Hank

RE: T/C and Shockwaves
 

I believe Knight is the brand with wide bores(narrow? :D) , so they don't shoot shockwaves at all good. They tend to like powerbelts the best.

RE: T/C and Shockwaves
 

I agree! Without a description of the recovered bullet, description of the entry and/or exit wound, plus failure to offer us any powder or bullet load information, it's really difficult to labelthis as bullet failure.

RE: T/C and Shockwaves
 

Triple Se7en

I agree with both you (ankster) - and I do not think I ever said the bullet was a failure, I am indicating from what I have read and seen the SST/SW is not the best performing bullet at close range unless it strikes a bone and begins expansion. The speed of and the design of the SW enhances its ability to pass through thin skinned animals with often little or know expansion at close range. Mind you the animal is dead! but it may not be dead quickly enough. Anyway quickly enough for me, I would like every animal to be anchored in its tracks - tall order I understanded. At longer ranges I have know problem with the SST/SW.

My point was, I believe there are better bullets for a ML at close range than a SST/SW. If you are constantly hunting or may take shots at longer range use the SW, but for me most of my shots are goingto be less than 75 - I prefer a bullet goes in one size and comes out bigger on the other side every time without speculation.

But!, that is just me to each his own...

RE: T/C and Shockwaves
 

Sabotloader

We can debate this until we're blue in the face. Expansion depends on speed and shot location with most-all coppers. Every deer wound-channel is different. Saying a bullet failed - or did not expand - or did not penetrate has too many variables to consider.

But please be-so-kind to offer the thread-starter here the name of copper-clad, polymer tip bullets that expand better with moderate powder chargesat sub-50 yard range - in your opinion???

I use a missle-shaped, very slight-opening HP lead sabot/bullet .... ie... Buffalo S.S.B with light magnum loads of 777 (100 gr. FFF). I don't feel there is a better bullet than the 285-325 gr. SSB at 25-150 yards using 70-120 grains of powder -- unless you wantedutmost expansion & a little more work for achieving accuracy -- in that case I would use the Precision Keith Nose 300 gr.

RE: T/C and Shockwaves
 

Sabotloader,
Never took what you said to infer that you felt the bullet was a failure. I have heard the same reports of a lack of expansion. I am not saying these people are liars either. But, almost every time the question is asked about load, distance and shot placement as well as what the recovered bullet or wound channel looked like; the answer is that they didn't get the bullet or deer back, but were positive that they made a "perfect" shot.

There are some great hollow point sabots available, my kids have taken a couple of deer with some Hornady XTPs early last year. I was running low on Shockwaves and since my kids never shoot past 100 yards, I knew it wouldn't be a problem. I'll honestly say that if I KNEW that I would never shoot past 100 yards, I would be very, very happy using the XTPs forever. The damage was devastating. My problem is that past 100 yards, the ballistics just aren't good enuff.

So, in my experience, the best bullet around it the shockwave. I personally haven't experience the "non expansion" issue on a close up shot and hope I never do. If I could have the best of both worlds, the almost guaranteed devestation of a hollowpoint and the great ballistics of a polymer tip, I would certainly want that.

Hank

RE: T/C and Shockwaves
 

Hey Guys. Thanks for the info. I hope I haven't started an argument.I should have been more specific about my problem. As for the expansion problem , I shot two deer and made perfect shots right behind the shoulder.Both deer were finally recovered but it was not easy.There was no blood trail from either deer and both deer looked like they had been shot with an arrow tipped with a field point.Both deer probably traveled 100 yards.The load I was using was a 100grs. Pyrodex and a 250 S/W.I am still hoping someone can tell me what to expect from the smaller 200gr S/W.I am curious about accuracy and performance from my T/C.I am also switching from 777 to APP loose. Thanks Guys!!!!!!!!!

RE: T/C and Shockwaves
 

Striperguy,
There are allot of people here with allot of experience. There are a few things that always tend to bring up lively discussions. Some of these include powerbelt performance, or lack thereof, 777 crud rings, Shockwave performance at close range, types of 209 primers, old style vs inline, iron sights vs scopes, pellets vs loose, on and on.
Most of the time it is lively, positive, polite and infomative like this thread has been. One kinda has to wade through all the great info and figure out what works for them. What works for me, even in the same gun, might not work for you.
Bottom line on the question you ask, if you think you are going to shoot within 100 yards,I would suggest perhaps the Hornady XTP or some other 250 to 300 grain hollow point style bullet and sabot. If you might need more than 100 yards, I would stick with the shockwaves. Maybe when using the shockwaves at close range move over to shoulder shots and move to double lung/heart shots at longer range.
Welcome to the forum, you'll learn allot, I know I have.
Good luck
Hank

RE: T/C and Shockwaves
 

I think Triple Se7en answered this question quite well. Really how many bullets have you recovered from deer? Mine have passed through never to be seen again.

I must add that I never have shot at a deer with a roundball or conical but I have no doubt that the result would be the same at the range you talked about.

RE: T/C and Shockwaves
 

Thanks Hank. I really appreciate the info. I am having a ball readind all the posts. It is really informative. I guess I should have asked if anyone else has tried the 200gr S/W and what kind of performance they got from them.Just curious as to how they compare to a 250gr S/W?

RE: T/C and Shockwaves
 

At first I thought this was a joke. I have the oppsite problem I have them turn inside out which works well on deer but I went to bonded ones for Boar and bear to get more penatration. I shoot 130 gr APP-FF with the 250SW and 110 or 150 [both loads will group an inch] with the 50/40-200gr. I have not used the 200gr on anything except deer yet but I do intend to. Lee

RE: T/C and Shockwaves
 

Hey Striperguy welcome to the board. Where abouts are you located in SW va? You should try and get to H & V sporting goods here in Richlands, you could gain a wealth of knowledge from those guys and they will have anything and everything you could imagine for muzzleloading.

RE: T/C and Shockwaves
 

Rather than open a new post, I have a question to ask. I also have an
Encore and get excellent results at 100 yardsshooting 300 grain XTP's
behind 100 grains of 2F APP. I recently purchased some 250 grain Shock
Waves and was wondering if the above powder load is sufficient or do
the SC's need to be pushed harder, something in the 120 or 130 grain
category???

RE: T/C and Shockwaves
 

I shoot 90 grains of Pyrodex R-S...and have killed a 6-8 deer with the 250 Shockwave...I don't worry about blood trails...I just put it through the shoulder blade...btw...My inline is a Knight Disc....With 90 grains, it makes one ragged hole at 100 yards...

Probably the best bullets for quick expansion are round balls...I have killed at least 30 with a .45 and .54...But they are not aerodynamic...If you listen to some guys they are pitiful excuses as a projectile...But they were used in firearms longer than any other projectile that is made....

Because of the design (plastic tip) of a Shockwave it will not open up as quickly as a hollow point type projectile....

I shoot Shockwaves in my inline, because I could have a 150 yard shot...In fact, I killed a 9 pointer last year at 143 yards....I'm sighted in 2 1/2 inches high at 100 yards and I'm about 3 inches low at 150....If all my hunting was in the woods where a 100 yard shot would be a long one I might go with a 250 or 200 grain Hornady XTP...Or better yet a 250-300 Grain Barnes all copper....

With these inlines we are reloading every shot.....So you need to put some good thought into the bullet design....I prefer to have a bullet that drops less, even though it might not open up as quickly on a lung shot....So its my job to put it where it will the most damage...

The deer that I have killed with a Shockwave/SST have all dropped....A buddy also shoots them...He uses 90 grains Triple Seven...Shot a nice buck at about 40 yards...quartering to him....He should have shot him in front of the shoulder...he didn't he shot him behind the shoulder...He did take out both lungs..but the deer ran 100 yards....Little blood trail....But I heard the bullet slap, so I knew he hit the deer....

RE: T/C and Shockwaves
 

has any body try shooting these bullets in to a water trap?

RE: T/C and Shockwaves
 

I don't think a water tank would really give a good indication of what shockwaves will do or how they will perform. Very few experts use this method for testing bullet performance anymore, ballistic gellitin is the medium of choice, but even that does not always replicate what a bullet will really do when it hits a living animal.

But, I do know how they perform in deer, at least for me. The three below were 250 grain shockwaves recovered from one head on and two quartering shots.
The whole thread can be seen at;

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1382997&mpage=1&key=encore%2crec overed%2cbullet&#1383236