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RE: Colorado outlaws smokeless powders during ML seaso
 

I'm with ya Coondog, the original intent of muzzleloading season was for preserving the old ways of hunting, when hunting skills and knowledge was important. I start to wondering when a fella talks about hunting with his in line and sabots, pyradex pellets, shotgun primers, and then whines because he thinks he should be allowed to use a scope too. That just isn't the spirit of what this season is all about in my opinion

RE: Colorado outlaws smokeless powders during ML seaso
 

It seems like different state legislatures have different reasons for implementing muzzleloader seasons anyway. I think originally most of the states wanted to offer the traditionalists a chance to hunt with their "antique" style guns, but now I think some just use it as a way to manage the herd by having another season. Why they dont just extend the regular season and include muzzleloaders as legal firearms I dont know. Lots of tough questions on this topic. Playing the devils advocate, why do we need to have seperate seasons for different types of devices anyway? Why can't bowhunters and muzzleloader hunters and centerfire hunters all hunt at the same time with whatever suits them? On the other end of the argument, we need a season for longbows, one for recurves, one for compounds with less than 65%letoff, one for super compounds, one for matchlocks, flintlocks, caplocks, inlines, scoped inlines, smokeless mz, centerfires, etc. I suppose when you get right down to it, it depends on what group lobbies the hardest for whatever season they advocate. Some consideration is probably given to revenues, in ga, I think we sell about 400,000 hunting licenses a year. If half of those people buy a muzzleloader and all the fixins, thats a lot of revenue for the state. It would be interesting to know, and maybe a little scary, how these seasons are constructed by our state govts.

RE: Colorado outlaws smokeless powders during ML seaso
 

The reason for all the seperate seasons is simple, MONEY. They charge you to hunt with each individual weapon choice.
As far as keeping it primitive goes, HOGWASH. You same people insist on taking game cleanly, stressing ethics and making accurate shots, and turn right around and want them to outlaw the most efficient means available to do just that. I dont tell you where to get your flint, heck lets make it illegal to use store bought flint, chip your own! Make your own powder too while you are at it! Can't you people see? DIVIDE AND CONQUER!
As far as Colorado outlawing muzzleloading equipment goes, that aint no surprise, they have always had it bassakwards anyway. I put in for three years in order to get my muzzleloading elk tag in 1997. Then in order to hunt there, I had to take a consistent 1 1/2" or less grouping rifle, and turn it into something that wasnt really fit to hunt with!
I had to remove my scope and replace the sights that had long ago been removed because of their uselessness (by comparision to a leupold)and put a peep sight on. At least they did allow that. Shhh dont tell em, no peeps will be next on the blacklist. I then had to can my sabots and find SOMETHING that was "legal" to use. Never again! And for those wondering, yes, I did kill an elk, so the sore loser argument is out.
My main goal has and always will be, to harvest game cleanly. Like it or not, the newest equipment on the market does that best, and that is what I will use. Probably not in Colorado ever again, but everywhere else I decide to hunt, even if it is only for the first shot! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

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RE: Colorado outlaws smokeless powders during ML seaso
 

what was the first state to have a muzzleloader season anyway? Here in ga, we have only had a ml season for the last two years. Before that there were wma hunts on state lands for bows and muzzleloaders but no special season. Tn hunter, do you have to buy a muzzleloading license in Tenn.? In ga its covered on the regular license.

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RE: Colorado outlaws smokeless powders during ML seaso
 

Lots of good points made here, for traditionals and in-lines both. CO may very well ban the use of smokeless powder during the muzzleloader season. But, that is no big surprise, CO has always been wishie washie that way. A few years ago when they banned in-lines and suffered financially for their mistake, they quickly saw the error of their way, and reversed themselves so fast that half of them probably had to be hospitalized with back injuries. In the next few years there may be more states that follow CO's example, but there may be some that have seen there error of there ways and allow smokeless, only time will tell.

Here in the state of NC, basically as long as it loads from the muzzle and is .45 cal or larger, it is legal during muzzleloading season. Scopes, saboted bullets, and even smokeless powder.

As far in-lines go, the first ones were around in the early 1700's. With the perfection of the percusion cap, in the early 1800's there were also in-lines. Muzzleloading performance reached a new penical of evalution during the Civil War. Conferedate sharpshooters made life very dangerous for Union officers out to 1,000yds with muzzleloaded Whittworth Rifles.

30-40 years ago when many of these special muzzleloading seasons were established, the T/C Hawkin was state of the art. There were very few hunters and you only had two choice either flintlock or sidelock percussion. These hunters had the woods to themselves. Many of these were beautiful hand made peices of art. Most muzzleloaders of that period were designed to shoot patch & ball. The mini-ball and conicals had yet to be perfected. The modern in-lines and sabots, were still a couple decades away.

Evalution caught up and in a hurry. Todays muzzleloader hunter doesn't seem to care for the forefathers way, and tradition doesn't play into the reason they decide to go with an in-line. In-line sells make up about 80% of the muzzleloader market today. The Savage is just the next logical step in this evalution. If given a choice of a Knight in-line or their long rifles, do you think Davey Crokkett and those at the Alamo, do you think they would have looked upon the in-line with as much disgust as some of you? I think not.

The game dept.'s first and foremaost concern should be the game herds in their charge. like it or not, hunters wishes are way down on the priority list, or at least they should be. Some lobbying groups have been very effective in keeping their wishes and wants on the front burners, at the expense of majority of their fellow hunters. PA is a prime example, of the small minority, yet very effective lobbying group, keeping out dated hunting methods as the law of the land. Most muzzleloader hunters in that state would give their left testical to be able to legally hunt with an in-line.

All we want is just to extend hunitng opportunities, just another chance to get that extra kill. That is a bunch of Bravo Seirra. Traditionalist are no more and no better hunters, than the in-line hunters, period. The bottom line is when I squeeze the trigger of my Savage on a deer, the deer will be laying right there, whether it's at 50yds or 200yds. Can you say the same when the smoke clears?

If I had my wishes here in NC, patch & ball would be outlawed. These may be effective at 50yds but anything past that and they are just cripplers and manglers, leaving game to wonder off and suffer an agonizing death. I know this will upset some, but it is JMHO, that's all.

RE: Colorado outlaws smokeless powders during ML seaso
 

What is the point of your using a muzzleloader in the first place, wouldn't you get more satisfaction out of using a centerfire? I know of many hunters who can't make a clean shot with a scoped modern gun.
I have no trouble taking a deer with a round ball, I know the limitations of my equipment, and myself. The hunter who wounds and cripples with a muzzleloader will do the same with what ever he uses during rifle season.

RE: Colorado outlaws smokeless powders during ML seaso
 

Very well said 1Shot 1Kill! Hunting ethics demand that animals be dispatched quickly and cleanly. It does not matter what method of hunting. Government should spend less time putting limits on hunters and more time educating hunters on the importance of self imposed limits based on the shooters abilities.

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RE: Colorado outlaws smokeless powders during ML seaso
 

Let me clearify a comment that I made concerning patch & ball. When I say that it is a crippler and mangler, I should not and I am not saying that everyone that hunts with this type of muzzleloader is a crippler and mangler. To be proficeint and effective with this type of muzzleloader takes years of experience and lots of self-discipline. There are many whom posess these qualities.

Yet on the other hand, many expect someone picking up a muzzleloader for the first to be just as knowledgeable and to play by their rules. It just ain't going to happen. I would much rather see a beginner or novice, pick up a T/C Encore, Knight Disc, CVA Fire Bolt, Traditions Lighting, or even a Savage 10ML-II, and be able to shoot it accurately, proficiently, and be able to cleanly and effiecently harvest game, while gaining expereince and knowledge about muzzleloading. To force a beginner or novice to use a flintlock and patch & ball is a recipy for disaster, that will undoubtabily lead to wounded, crippled, and mangled game. Not to mention a frustrated and discouraged hunter.

The fact of the matter is, some muzzleloaders are more likely to be much less effeicent at taking game than other, by not being able to put nearly as much energy on target as others. Round balls by their design are not very effeicent at transferring energy into the the game, meaing that they do not expand very much, they do not mushroom, and unless you hit solid bone they don't even deform very much. The saboted bullets and even conicals like Power Belts, used by in-line hunters, are designed to deliver maximum energy into game, they expand, mushroom, and penetrate.

If a patch & ball muzzleloader and hunter, is capable of clean kills out to say 75yds (whether it be his muzzleloader limit or his self-imposed limit), then why should he be crying and moaning over a in-line muzzleloader and hunter who can cleanly kill out to 100 or 125yds? I truely beleive as a rule, and there are always exceptions to every rule, that because a new muzzleloader hunter buys an in-line, they do not automatically think that they blast away at game at 200yds. I've talked to too many new hunters just getting into muzzleloading for anyone to convince me other wise. The vast majority have a great amount of hunting expereince, in other areas, like bow, shotgun, and rifle. They are getting into muzzleloading for a new challenge of doing something different, not to be like Daniel Boone or Davey Crockett. They are getting into muzzleloading for the extra time afield, becuase as a hunter that is what he longs for. If he gets to harvest a deer, then that is just the iceing on the cake.

Here in NC, you are allowed 6 deer total throughout the entire season, inlcuding bow, muzzleloader, and gun. You can use all 6 tags during bow season, you use all 6 during muzzleloading, or you can use all 6 during gun season. Or you can use them in any combination you want. I find it overly complicated and totally unneccessary for states to allow this many deer during bow, this many during muzzleloader, this many during gun, and this during the 2nd muzzleloader season. I know that it all has to do with money from thesales of these individual hunting season permits. Would it not be simpler to sale one hunting license/permit for all seasons, have an annual total bag limit and leave it to the hunter to dictate how and when he use his tags? I am getting off subject and rambling now, but JMHO.

RE: Colorado outlaws smokeless powders during ML seaso
 

1 Shot,Now you know that what your are saying makes entirely to much sense for any D.N.R. to even consider. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Colorado outlaws smokeless powders during ML seaso
 

In Tennessee, if you want to hunt small game, that is one license. If you want to gun hunt for deer, that is another license. If you want to bow hunt, another license. If you wish to MUZZLELOADER hunt, that is another license. If you want to hunt on some of the WMA's, that is yet another license!
And for those of you who have dreams of doing it like YOUR forefathers did, more power to you! but dont try to tell me I have to do it that way. You &quot;died in the wool&quot;, do it the old way types, why stop there? Turn off your electricity, running water, gas heat, sell your automobiles and buy horses. Go back to coal oil lights and wood heat. And by the way, most of those people died before they ever reached 40.
I'm staying in the 21st century, thank you.

RE: Colorado outlaws smokeless powders during ML seaso
 

Well, I tell ya one thing. Here in this commie state of MD, the only reason they allow any hunting is for deer population. Only reason they extended the extra muzzleloader season and let ya use a scope with inline was for more kills. They could give a diddly about tradition. When the deer are down to acceptable levels, say goodbye to any kind of extended seasons and technology that goes with muzzleloading. Its kinda funny on how people feel so different from different parts of the country. I come from Turkey creek, Ky, near pond creek, the deer kill percentage there is alot less than here in MD, hence the not as long season for muzzleloader or bow.

RE: Colorado outlaws smokeless powders during ML seaso
 

I usually avoid these threads because they nearly always degenerate into a childish spat of name calling. But, I feel compelled to respond to several statements. So:


&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;As far as keeping it primitive goes, HOGWASH.

&gt;The fact of the matter is, it was traditional M/L hunters who got the special seasons established for the specific purpose of using traditional weapons.


&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I had to remove my scope and replace the sights that had long ago been removed because of their uselessness.

&gt;That's largely a matter of skill and marksmanship knowledge. True, iron sights require more skill than optics, but that's part of the attraction. My 9 year old son killed his 1st deer this year with a traditional rifle & open sights. My 16 year old daughter has killed deer with a traditional rifle & open sights. And, my 81 year old father-in-law (he's blind in one eye, and we're not sure he can see out the other) is still very competitive in benchrest matches that are restricted to iron sights.


&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;As far in-lines go, the first ones were around in the early 1700's.

&gt;True, there were some early firearms that could loosely be described as &quot;in-lines&quot;. And, I would say if you wanted to build a historically correct replica (or just a reasonable facsimile) of one of those rifles, and use it in a traditional M/L season, more power to you! But, it ain't gonna look like a Rem700 and it ain't gonna have a 3-9X scope.


&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;PA is a prime example, of the small minority, yet very effective lobbying group, keeping out dated hunting methods as the law of the land.

&gt;I would say PA is a prime example of a state that has preserved the original intent and spirit of the M/L season and should be applauded for having the balls (pun intended) to do so.


&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;If I had my wishes here in NC, patch & ball would be outlawed. These may be effective at 50yds but anything past that and they are just cripplers and manglers..

&gt;I'm afraid your inexperience is showing. It reminds me of the old lead/steel shot arguements. It took a long time for people to understand that steel was different and assumptions and principles that were valid with lead were not valid with steel. Experience showed us that steel can be effective when the proper assumptions and principles are applied. High velocity, smokeless powder/jacketed bullet principles and assumptions don't apply to blackpowder and M/L, and lead to erroneous conclusions about effectiveness.


&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Round balls by their design are not very effeicent at transferring energy into the the game, meaing that they do not expand very much, they do not mushroom, and unless you hit solid bone they don't even deform very much.

&gt;Again, your inexperience is showing.

RE: Colorado outlaws smokeless powders during ML seaso
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I usually avoid these threads because they nearly always degenerate into a childish spat of name calling. But, I feel compelled to respond to several statements. So:


&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;As far as keeping it primitive goes, HOGWASH.

&gt;The fact of the matter is, it was traditional M/L hunters who got the special seasons established for the specific purpose of using traditional weapons.
****Sorry, the reason WE have a muzzleloader hunt is for POPULATION CONTROL********


&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I had to remove my scope and replace the sights that had long ago been removed because of their uselessness.

&gt;That's largely a matter of skill and marksmanship knowledge. True, iron sights require more skill than optics, but that's part of the attraction. My 9 year old son killed his 1st deer this year with a traditional rifle & open sights. My 16 year old daughter has killed deer with a traditional rifle & open sights. And, my 81 year old father-in-law (he's blind in one eye, and we're not sure he can see out the other) is still very competitive in benchrest matches that are restricted to iron sights.
*****Comparatively speaking, iron sights simply cannot compete with a Leupold! My vision is 20/15. I can shoot iron sights with anybody, but a scope is FAR superior.*******


&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;As far in-lines go, the first ones were around in the early 1700's.

&gt;True, there were some early firearms that could loosely be described as &quot;in-lines&quot;. And, I would say if you wanted to build a historically correct replica (or just a reasonable facsimile) of one of those rifles, and use it in a traditional M/L season, more power to you! But, it ain't gonna look like a Rem700 and it ain't gonna have a 3-9X scope.


&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;PA is a prime example, of the small minority, yet very effective lobbying group, keeping out dated hunting methods as the law of the land.

&gt;I would say PA is a prime example of a state that has preserved the original intent and spirit of the M/L season and should be applauded for having the balls (pun intended) to do so.


&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;If I had my wishes here in NC, patch & ball would be outlawed. These may be effective at 50yds but anything past that and they are just cripplers and manglers..

&gt;I'm afraid your inexperience is showing. It reminds me of the old lead/steel shot arguements. It took a long time for people to understand that steel was different and assumptions and principles that were valid with lead were not valid with steel. Experience showed us that steel can be effective when the proper assumptions and principles are applied. High velocity, smokeless powder/jacketed bullet principles and assumptions don't apply to blackpowder and M/L, and lead to erroneous conclusions about effectiveness.


&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Round balls by their design are not very effeicent at transferring energy into the the game, meaing that they do not expand very much, they do not mushroom, and unless you hit solid bone they don't even deform very much.

&gt;Again, your inexperience is showing.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Edited by - Tn_hunter on 01/15/2002 13:58:48

RE: Colorado outlaws smokeless powders during ML seaso
 

Tal/IL, I am afraid, my friend, that it is your inexperience that is on display here, tempered by a healthy dose of ignorance on the subject of smokeless powder muzzleloading. You see my friend, I have been thru the gaunlet of flintlock p/rb, sidelock percussion with solid lead conicals, to sidelocks with saboted pistol bullets, to in-lines with saboted pistol bullets, to custom smokeless powder muzzleloaders, to the Savage 10ML and 10ML-II. I have more ropunds down range thru smokeless muzzleloaders than most people put down range in a lifetime, collectively. When it comes to the subject of smokeless powder muzzleloading I am anything but inexperienced.

If you think that a p/rb is more efficient than a Savage 10ML-II at taking game? Let let the figures speak for themsleves, shall we?

.50 Cal shooting .490 cal 177gr Speer round ball:
muzzle fps/fpe....100yd.....200yd.....300yd
2,300/2138.....1,099/488...781/247...590/141


.50 cal 10ML-II with .452 Hornday 300gr XTP
mzl fps/fpe....100yd........200yd.......300yd
2230/3313...2026/2735...1500/1499..1234/1015


.50 cal 10ML-II with .452 Hornday 250gr XTP
mzl fps/fpe....100yd.......200yd........300yd
2450/3333...1985/2188...1591/1406...1276/904

I am being a little conservative with the 10ML-II, because the latest load data performance is 20-25% greater than I listed here. The fact is that the 10ML-II performance is greater at 300yds, than a P/RB has at 100yds. How can someone with your self-proclaimed knowledge and experience make a logical arguement that a P/RB muzzleloader is just as effective or more so at taking game, than the smokeless 10ML-II, when the facts are staring you right in face? Yes the round balls start out fast and put up modestly impressively fpe at muzzle, but with basically zero BC, they shed velocity and energy not just by the yard, but by the inch.

If I put my Savage 10ML-II in a circa 1700's stock, removed my scope, installed open sights, added a dummy rocklock, so that it looks like a flintlock, would that please you?

Edited by - 1SHOT_1KILL on 01/15/2002 14:57:43

RE: Colorado outlaws smokeless powders during ML seaso
 

I can see why they would ban smokeless powder during muzzleloading season. There is a spray that makes smokeless powder residue glow under black light, if there is a poaching situtation or a questionable suspicious type kill, you would not be able to tell the difference between that or a centerfire.

Chris

RE: Colorado outlaws smokeless powders during ML seaso
 

Fella's first off it dosen't matter to me which or what you use in your ML to get the bullet to it intended target,as long as it is legal for you to do it.
The next time you get to talking to ML hunters do a little survy and ask what they shoot in their ML,I think you will be a little surprized,I know I was.( if they want to take the risk of getting their head blowed off ,its no skin off my nose)I did this this past year and seven out of ten people I ask,shooting a Knight or T/C encore was shooting smokeless.I even had two to explain to me why these rifles were more adapt to smokless than the Savage(I know they didn't make sence to me either)

RE: Colorado outlaws smokeless powders during ML seaso
 

But then again, during regular rifle season, I would like to see the ban lifted because it really would not matter as long as the game laws were followed for the harvest.

Chris

RE: Colorado outlaws smokeless powders during ML seaso
 

This sounds like a compound bow versus traditional bows versus crossbows. Oh my!<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

I think MO uses ML as another avenue for managing the herd. I don't mind, they seem to do a good job here.

I don't see how a traditional ML using a flintlock could care what the guy next door is using. Like has been said, as long as they make a quick clean kill, thats what really matters.

A friend of mine LOVES his TC Hawkens is it?? He is considering selling his other guns and just using it from now on. I am getting a pistol, he tells me its not traditional enough, I tell him to hunt his way and have fun. For me personally, firearms seasons here, including the ML season, is what I call an opportunity. If I don't have a deer from early bow season, its an opportunity to get some meat in the freezer. If I have one already, I am trophy hunting, and the guns help me reach out a little more. But thats me, for others it means something else, and thats GREAT!

Heck, I like bowhunting so much I kind of wonder why I hunt with the 30-06 anymore. I guess for a change.

--Jim

RE: Colorado outlaws smokeless powders during ML seaso
 

Greets folks,
Well lots of opinions here, and mine will just ad to the mix but here goes.
If you want to use all that fancy stuff to hunt, your still challenging yourself to a one shot one kill hunt. BUT you can get that with a single shot rifle. So use your fancy gear in the regular rifle season, and know that you've given yourself a handicap that makes your hunt a bit more rewarding.
As for the muzzloader only seasons, they were developed for traditionalists by traditiobnalists in most states. The only reason these new guns and equiptment are out is cause a bunch of people want to make it easier. Isnt the point of using a muzzleloader to make it more of a challenge??
If you hunt in muzzloader only season, use a traditional, open ignition open sighted gun with loose powder ( BP pyrodex or whatever), and a full caliber slug or round ball. It makes the hunt more challnging, you have to get closer to your animal to get an ethical shot and a clean kill.
I personally own a traditions hawken style gun with double triggers, love it. Have yet to take any game with it but I have only hunted with it a couple times, and I haven't gotten close enuff to anything legal to use it. BUT that is the point of the special hunts. ( incidentally, I used it during regular rifle season, so I was competing against all the other hunters too )

Just my uneducated opinion!
Terry