Any Experiences With American Pioneer Powder
 

I spoke to a gentleman today at a sporting goods store, and he told me that this powder is THE best powder to use. He stated that he only cleans after every twenty shots with a spit patch and dry patch, and has no problems with a dirty rifle. I saw that he carried some of the pellets as well, but they were square instead of round. It was $19.50 for 100 pellets of 50 grian BP equivalent. Anyone have any experiences with this stuff?

RE: Any Experiences With American Pioneer Powder
 

It may be the best "clean-burning" blackpowder substitute -- along with it's very close relatives (Goex Pinnacle-Jim Shockey Gold).But some of us here feel the "best' powders are not the cleanest powders.

RE: Any Experiences With American Pioneer Powder
 

My Omega shoots ragged holes at 100yd with heavy loads of APP_FF on the other hand the 35.5 inch barreel on my copy of the Hawken in the ST Louis Musem likes real Black Powder. If you look till you find what the gun likes then you make any compromises you feel you have to.
Lay out a systematic plan find a sabot that is real snug,loose enough to be reasonablebut still tight enough to shoot good Pick out bullets suited to what you will use them for,trybullets suited to the twist per length [ the greenburg formula might help some] try the different powders run a group for every 10 gr then 5 gr on each side of the best one. There are no hard fast rules on what shoots APP-ff works best for my Omega, some people have the best luck with Gold and about half like to clean or is that the dirty ones shoot the best for them? Lee

RE: Any Experiences With American Pioneer Powder
 

Those pellets are actually sticks, and unlike pyrodex or 777 pellets , one is supposed to crush them before loading the projectile. To give you idea how expensive those sticks are, 50 grains volume of APP weigh in the neighborhood of 41 grains weight. So your talking about 4100 grains weight of the sticks for 19.50 or about $ 33.29 per pound. Were I you and wanted to use it, I would buy a pound of loose, which by the way, I have already done.

So far, my sense is that one must use a minumum charge to get it to work well and burn properly. I would say at least80-90grains. Also this stuff burns slow and is not suited to poor fitting conicals which won't obturate well with it and allow excessive blowby. With tight fitting sabots in rifles with shallow rifling, I think you will be pleased as is lemoyne.

I'm back to black powder, so if you happen to live in colorado, I'd trade you my pound of 3f APP (purchased for $25 + tax) for a pound of swiss 3f black powder.

RE: Any Experiences With American Pioneer Powder
 

APP is a great rifle powder. And although it might work excellent in this rifle, it is no guarantee that it will work in yours or a different one. I have also seen that APP seems to be fussy with large conicals and heavy sabot projectiles. In a number of my rifles they fail in accuracy when things get heavy. Other then that, with light sabots 300 grains and under, I had some excellent accuracy, and clean up was excellent...

RE: Any Experiences With American Pioneer Powder
 

Right now I am shooting 100 grains of pyrodex pellets and a 245 grain PB. And, I am satisfied with the results at 100 yards (2" group). Ninety percent of my shots will be under 100 yards. I was curious because of the ease of cleaning, and may give it a try later and compare the results.

RE: Any Experiences With American Pioneer Powder
 

Criggster - if your getting good results with another powder, that's wonderful. At least you have a standard load that you know you can fall back on. There is nothing wrong with experimentation in the future when you simply want to try and learn. Good luck with your future tests, and I'm glad you have a good shooting load.

The other thing I want to state is, too many people are more concerned about cleaning then accuracy. All powders still have to be cleaned from the rifle. Some are a little harder to clean then others and might take the user a few minutes more to clean. But I would never sacrifice accuracy for convenience and I am glad to see you're not doing so as well. We have an obligation of sorts when we hunt to make as clean and accurate a shot on the animals we pursue, to insure they are dispatched as quickly and painlessly as possible.

Keep us posted when you make the future tests with APP or Pinnacle.

RE: Any Experiences With American Pioneer Powder
 

I like it and my brother uses it too. Really cuts down on cleaning. I like the 3f the best If i can find it. Some say it doesnt give as high velocities as other powders but how much more velocity does one need. My loads kill and are accurate so that is all I could ask for.

RE: Any Experiences With American Pioneer Powder
 

Pglasgow, tell me about crushing sticks, thats not the way I have loaded so far and since the one load I like to use sticksthe for holds 7/8 of inch I had not thought about it. what is the advantage ? I don't use them much I really prefer loose.Lee

RE: Any Experiences With American Pioneer Powder
 

I agree with this idea, but because I shoot a couple of rifles that have fixed sights, I want any powder I use to be able to provide a similar trajectory to the one that I was getting from the powder being used when the sights were "regulated". This usually requires a closely comparable MV from any given powder.

RE: Any Experiences With American Pioneer Powder
 

A buddy of mine had a jug and we both tried it ,my only compaint is the way it's packaged- there seems to be a lot of broken and chipped "pellets" and that would me think every charge is different..

RE: Any Experiences With American Pioneer Powder
 

I'm trying my first pound of APP2f and I find it very clean burning and very light recoil, other than that it will not work out of my powder flask and it seems as though my Hawkin rifle is the only gun I own that groups with it. I does seem low in power to me .

RE: Any Experiences With American Pioneer Powder
 

Well those that do not have a chrony of any sort need to realize that the weight of the powder adds to recoil and that APP powders are not of the heaver type. Acorrding to the chrony and please remember their are things like the tightness and weight of projectile that affect this, I get this place ment from fast to slowest.
777
Black Mag
Pinnacle
Gold
APP
Prydrox
Black
Now as for how important that is lets see your priority list, heres mine.
Accuracy
noncorrosive
good ignition
clean enough to get 2 & 3 shots in hunting situation without cleaning and with good accuracy

RE: Any Experiences With American Pioneer Powder
 

I`ve tried it and didn`t like it- the accuracy or the residue it left. I`ve tried them all and get the best results with Black Mag 3. It shoots great with the least residue(very easy and quick clean-up) with excellent accuracy. I shoot a T/C Omega 50 cal., 100 grains Black Mag 3, 300 grain sabots, various brands, and get 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards consistantly.

RE: Any Experiences With American Pioneer Powder
 

The biggest gripe I hear with Black Mag III is jug-to-jug inconsistencies. Another gripe is sometimes opening the jug & finding your powder has turned into a large rock.

RE: Any Experiences With American Pioneer Powder
 

Yeah, Black Mag 3 does get clumpy. I just pour it into a gallon ziplock bag and crush it up. I`ll deal with this, as good as it shoots in my gun. It all comes down to personal preference and what works best for the individual.

RE: Any Experiences With American Pioneer Powder
 

When it gets rocky, spread it out thinly on a covered table & let it dry in a non-humid environmentbefore putting it back in the jug. That sub-powder, much like real blackpowder, can become moisture-contaminated and re-dryed with supposedly no ill effects. How true that is - I don't know!

RE: Any Experiences With American Pioneer Powder
 

I know its true for Black Powder. Water is used in mixing the ingredients of black powder. If water is used in the mixing of subs I don't see why that wouldn't be true.

RE: Any Experiences With American Pioneer Powder
 

I dont think the APP sticks are for crushing. Never heard or read that. They are suppose to load like 777 or pyrodex pellets but i dont really care for them. I have tried them and they just need to be more cylyndrical and not the odd shape they are. Break and chip too easy. I read the shape is because of hogdons patent on pellets. Now I have seen some new Goex pellets or pre measure loads in compressed form in an ad that says something about crushing them. If you have to crush them , then why not just measure out regular ol loose charges. How do you know to what degree you would be breaking up those charges each time to get consistancy in your loads.

RE: Any Experiences With American Pioneer Powder
 

APP,

Thinkyour are right about that. I was thinking that one was to use them the same as the pinnacle EZ-loads, but then, I guess APP wanted to hold Goex's hand behind its back by giving there EZ-loads one less feature than the "sticks". The shape and even the names of "sticks" and "EZ-loads" are becauseHodgdonisentitled tothe proprietary use of the word "pellets". The shape is covered by a design patent while the word "pellet" by a Trade name or Trademark copywrite.

As much concern as people have with "air space", I can't imagine why anyone would want to use APP sticks. Also, I really dofeel that their ballistics w/regard to the sticks is nota "true and accurate" representation for most folks. I just can't believe it can produce the samevelocities as Triple Seven looseon a volume basis. Now if the Sticks are 50 grains on a weight basis, then that would explain it. On the other hand, Hodgdon tends to underestimate velocities with its published ballistics, in my experience with the chrony.

I used lubricated full-bore conicals when I tried 3f APP. The results were quite disappointing. I found APP to be dismally weak with them, on the order of 50 to 60 percent of black powder. The shop owner who sold me thepowder told me that if I removed the lubricant (and quit worrying about velocity), i would be pleased with the results. I haven't tried that yet but intend to later and of course, the chrony will be there.

As far as consistency, I don't expect to get narrow distributions of velocity with APP loose, (let alone crushed sticks)but I may be surprised when I try a few new things. I would really like for APP to work in my Sidekick, sure would be nice to load one shot after another without having to remove a crudded in breech plug at the range.

RE: Any Experiences With American Pioneer Powder
 

My results ecoh tgreer's , black mag 3 is what my omega wants , allthough I use 90 grains not 100 . The diferance between 90 and 100 grains of black mag is substainsal , 100 is like a max load of say pyrodex or real black powder . 90 grains is like a stout 100 , or 110 grain load of the same , at least in my omega that is the result . I have been very happy with black mag , it does foul , a white wax like fouling that cleans easyly , cleaner than any other Ive used . Im not sure if APP uses similar ingredients in its recipie . I have not used it .