Virginia's goin' Smokeless...
 

Congratulations to the state of Virginia. After considering all of the relevant data, then conducting a thorough public opinion review, and listening to all the hunters that spoke up, they have released the 2006 proposed game codes. These codes will become law barring any unforeseen events.

The new code specifically designates SMOKELESS POWDER as a legally approved propellant in a muzzleloading gun for use during ANY MUZZLEODING SEASONS.

It appears safe to say, more states are likely to follow in Virginia's footsteps in the near future...

The regulations are outlined on page 4 of this proposal document.
http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/regulations/text/15-90.pdf

The Fish and Game Department, as well as interested Hunters, have spoken...The state of Virginia has listened!!!

RE: Virginia's goin' Smokeless...
 

I have nothing against the use of smokeless powder in the Savage and some of the other muzzleloaders. They just are not for me is all. I've read a lot of shooting reports on the Savage and from all I read they are an exceptional shooting rifle. I wish all the people with the smokeless muzzleloaders good luck and safe hunting. Make sure you make the one shot you have count.

RE: Virginia's goin' Smokeless...
 

im all for using everything you can to make a quick human kill.....the states where rifle hunting is illegal them smokeless guns would be your best bet...good shootin..easy to clean and shoot...not as hard to learn or master as a flintlock...farther distance...if i couldnt use a rifle im sure id own one....but im still lucky enough to beable to use a rifle...so if i dont feel like takin the flinter ill take the rifle...i sure hope PA never changes the Flintlock season....i think that would add way to many yahoos in the woods..and also too many deer would go home...them smokeless guns shoot better then most run of the mill weekend warrior guys can from what ive read...id like to shoot one just to see what they are like though..and no rotten egg smell and smoke cloud after the shot?? they take the fun out of everything!

RE: Virginia's goin' Smokeless...
 

They might as well open the season to let us use a regular rifle, muzzleloader, bow, crossbowor whatever you want to!![:@] It kinda takes away the accuracy/range limitations of the modern blackpowder muzzleloaders! So, if you can use what amounts to the range and accuracy of a centerfire rifle why not just have a free-for-all!!!!

RE: Virginia's goin' Smokeless...
 

I think a lot of the accuracy potential of a rifle applies to whether they allow optics. Wisconsin's muzzleloader season does not allow the use of optics. So no matter what kind of muzzleloader rifle I have, I'm only as good as I can see and shoot with open sights. In this environment,most shooters, even a traditional rifle is just as deadly as the inlines.

When people complain that one kind of rifle has better ballistics then another. I only tell them if they want that advantage to purchase that rifle then. Otherwise they need to take satisfaction in the fact they hunt with the kind of equipment they feel produces the right kind of challenge for them. I am not out there competing with anyone.

I own a lot of rifles, but if you take the scopes off of them my limit is approximately 100 yards give or take. The reason being, that is all the distance inside my personal comfort range without optics. I feel that's my limit, shooting at a deer sized target's kill zone. At 100 yards, I will kill a deer dead whether it is with a roundball being pushed by Goex or a sabot being pushed by a smokeless brand of powder. I hate to see people simply try to "put some lead in one."

I've watched people at public ranges with open sighted muzzleloaders and even modern cartridge rifles. In my opinion there are many of them that have no business shooting at anything over 50 yards away. I watched a person shooting a 30-30 at a paper plate at the100 yard station. He fired seven rounds and hit the paper plate five times. He then looked at members of his group, smiled and said, yep.. still on the money. All I could think of was.. you missed twice with that rifle. And the group he had was not even impressive. I was blasting away with a .54 caliber Renegade shooting roundball and had a better group at 100 yards then he did.

I think the same holds true of the smokeless powder rifle shooters as well. If they can not hit what they aim at, their smokeless powder does them no good. Granted, they can achieve some terrific speeds on their projectiles and with good optics, can shoot some long distances. Well there are modern inline shooters with good optics that can do the same thing. I would go to bet that if a quality optic device was put on some of these traditional rifles and was practiced with to learn bullet drop, etc. They also could do some outstanding long range shooting. I have been tempted to scope a traditional rifle, but as yet have never done it.

Many times States base their laws on the demands of the general hunting public and the management of their game herds. I am sure that all that was taken into consideration. Also you need to take into consideration the kind of hunting situation you might encounter State to State. Scopes for instance being allowed in States where the average shot is or possibly will be well over 100 yards, I have no problem with. I would much rather see a person make a clean killing shot on one animal then wound three others before they finally fill their tag.

In the meantime, I will continue to hunt with the kind of rifle that brings ME the most enjoyment and let the other person worry about their own self.

RE: Virginia's goin' Smokeless...
 

As always...well said Cuyugad...

RE: Virginia's goin' Smokeless...
 

While I really don't care what the next guy is useing as long as it's not pointed in my direction, I think it's too bad they are allowing smokeless, not a fan of scopes either. Like bow season, ML'r season in my parts has turned into another deer wacking contest where all one has to do is throw a few dollars at it and you can hunt for another month or two. In my state, it used to be called "Special Muzzel Loading season", special is not included in the name anymore, probably because there is nolonger anything special about it.

Doug

RE: Virginia's goin' Smokeless...
 

Well, as a matter of personal choice, I have no interest at all in usinganythink but blackpowder in a muzzleloader, however, does anyone else see a problem with these rules, as they are written? I'm sure it was not the intent, but to me, the wording of these regulations seem to stateone must use at least 50 grns of whichever powder they use, including smokeless.

RE: Virginia's goin' Smokeless...
 

Exactly...had the same thought about the 50grns...AND...about someone pouring in down the throat of any oldmuzzleloader, not just the new fangled one manufactured to shoot smokeless.

RE: Virginia's goin' Smokeless...
 

What I think is an unbiased opinion.I started shooting my grandads muzzleloader [originals] at 12 I am now pushing 70. I can build [and have ] a round ball hawken that will take deer for me at 175 yds without any problem. So whats the big deal about a bit of range? The real advantage I see is less chance of a rifle being ruined by rust or corrosion and less effort to clean them. The biggest draw back that concerns me is that there is a lot less room for error in measuring powder when using smokeless designed for cartridge guns. Since most deer are taken a bow ranges any way I believe that anyone who believes that it gives them any advantage other than convenience under normal circumstances is wishful thinking.
There for I do not see any reason why they should be barred except prejudice even though I have not chosen to use one myself.
We need to help and support each other; if we do not hang together the antigun miniminds will have the chance to hang us individually. Lee

RE: Virginia's goin' Smokeless...
 

Are they??

Virginia DF&G Regulation: G. A muzzleloading gun, for the purpose of this section, means a single shot flintlock or percussion weapon, excluding muzzleloading pistols, .45 caliber or larger, firing a single projectile or sabot (with a .38 caliber or larger projectile) of the same caliber loaded from
the muzzle of the weapon and propelled by at least 50 grains of black powder (or black powder equivalent or smokeless powder).

From Tahquamenon:Nitrocellulose or Smokeless Powder
Smokeless powder is actually nitrocellulose-based powder, the material developed by Paul Vieille in 1884. Nitrocellulose required much more processing than simply dipping cotton in acid and wood pulp soon became the preferred source of raw cellulose. The two sources of raw cellulose have different properties so they are used and blended based upon the intended purpose of the finished product. To make nitrocellulose powder, the nitrocellulose is dissolved in a mixture of ether and alcohol and it becomes a gelatinous mass. When the solvents evaporate, it leaves a hard plastic material. The gelatinous blob is usually rolled into a sheet before it hardens and after it hardens it is cut up into various sized flakes. The cutting is done on machines because the particles are tiny and it takes a great deal of cutting. Furthermore, it just wouldn’t have been the Industrial Revolution if they had cut it by hand. Nitrocellulose was the first reliable and stable gunpowder. It is the principle type of propellant today.

If I lived in VA, I would request a further clarification and definition of this regulation.
Question(s): What is defined as smokeless powder? Are they including nitrocellulose (smokeless) powder? And, if they are truly meaning a 50 grain Minimum, that could be excessive for ML's rated for nitro-powder depending on the Nitro-powder type. Particularily if one measures by volume which the measuring device and method could add 5gr or more variance from charge to charge. You should never use a BP measuring device for smokeless powder, you should use a scale to measure the charge and if you use Lee Dipper measuring devices, you should still verify the load on a scale.

The 50Grain Minimum load in the regulation is over the recommended loads for the Savage 10MLII using smokeless, so I have a hunch that the Virgina DF&G is not intending Nitrocellulose smokeless powder as a BP equivelant. Savage specifies a 2-Grain maximum variance with Nitro-Powder. So the VA DF&G reg would mandate that you overload your 10MLII in every instance if using Nitrocellulose power.

http://www.savagearms.com/images/pdf/manuals/MLII_loads.pdf

Now for BP or BP Substitues (777, Pyrodex, BM3, etc,) a 50gr minimum load by volume would ensure a reasonable baseline for game harvesting lethality. I don't know anyone that deer hunt's with a .45 and less than 50 gr charge and a PRB nor anyone that would hunt with less than 50gr in anything .45 or larger.

I would say the Virgina as some further definition and clarification required - to say the least.

Tahquamenon

RE: Virginia's goin' Smokeless...
 

I have a Savage as well as an Omega.Renegade and now an Ultra-mag.
The Savage shoots the same bullets as the other Three. The White does shoot conical's a lot better. The nicest thing about the Savage is you don't have to clean it every time you shoot it. As Cayagad said here in Wi. we can only use 1x scopes so its not much if any advantage. Throw a little larger scope and it is a better performer. The sabot is still the element that holds back better performance. It is a muzzleloader and not a single shot rifle it is no means a 270 ot 7mm. I use the Savage in Wi. and the Omega and White in Co. for elk. They are far better than the Savage for conicals and BP. So each is better in there arena.
Ken

RE: Virginia's goin' Smokeless...
 

I like the good tradition of a traditional muzzleloader, PRB, and REAL black powder. Inlines are OK but they are too much like a modern rifle to me. I dont think I would ever shoot a smokeless muzzleloader but it is just personal preference.

RE: Virginia's goin' Smokeless...
 

In VA we CAN use telescopic sights. There is definitely a big difference in using a repeating centerfire cartridge versus any muzzleloading gun. But, there is also a big difference in accuracy in blackpowder versus smokeless. I know that it all depends on the shooter, but all things being equal the smokeless should be more accurate.

The VDGIF is looking for more money, but they are doing it by making everything under the sun legal (smokeless &crossbows)instead of addressing the real issues they face. Being the lack of or high prices involved with hunting land/rights, and the issue of less younger people entering the hunting scene. I spoke to a biologist recently, and asked him about what the DGIF planned to do about these two issues, and he said "I don't know"!

RE: Virginia's goin' Smokeless...
 

Craiggster - It's unfortunate but the all mighty dollar is a great motivation tool. States will do some of the most unreasonable things to make extra revenue for themselves and their favorite programs. Unfortunately there are times the what they allow to get the bigger sports dollar is not agreeable to everyone.

You hit upon a very critical point and that is the lack of young people being brought into the outdoor sports. This will be a more serious problem in the future. When people no longer hunt and fish, they do not purchase the license and permits. When that happens they cut programs and people. Then to raise revenue they raise current license fees, and sell off some programs that make an important impact on the benifits we see today. It is a shame that more young people are not exposed to the things the outdoors has to offer. Talking to them they seem more interested in computer games, chat rooms, and more electronic pursuits.

I guess that's why I am more then willing to welcome anything that will bring more people into the outdoors. I also commend all those that bring their children and young people out, to shooting ranges, fishing, hiking, camping, anything. Foryoung people will be the future of our outdoors as we know it.

RE: Virginia's goin' Smokeless...
 

The license increase is already on the horizon, and will probably take effect the end of this month. I'm all for the increase; because they haven't increased the fee for a very long time. But, they should address the roots of the problem. Another point is that they are going with the 50 grain min., but that is a max. load for smokeless powder. Did they do any research???????????

RE: Virginia's goin' Smokeless...
 

I read some of the other posts from Savage users about loads, and since I have never owned or shot one I have no knowledge of what a "safe load" of smokeless would be.. You have a valid point.