Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

I went shooting this morning and instead of the 1" and under I have become have been getting they ran 2 and 2.5 when I switched back to spit wiping between shots the groups sucked up to a ragged hole again.
It seems to work for every one else, so what am I doing wrong?
The gun cleaned easy loaded smooth and easy; better than normal as a matter of fact but the groups opened right up, I am at a loss on this on unless it was a coincidince. Did it with 200gr SW and the 250 SW both. Did you all have to change powder loads or any thing when you started using ALK and WW? You are using 50/50 Right? Lee

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

Ain't that wierd? I wonder if the alk/WW solution is getting your bore cleaner than spit, and that's making the difference. I wouldn't say you're doing anything wrong, but it would seem that with your powder and bullet combination, they like spit better! I'd stick with it!

IM jaybe :)

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

Well if spit gave me better groups, then I'd be spitting down the barrel. I really can not tell you why the bore swab described caused the open groups. I use the same formula and have excellent results with it. I normally shoot Goex and need all the cleaning I can get....

It is interesting range results there. Thanks for posting. What powder were you shooting?

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

I can't say for sure, but I think jaybe may have hit
on the reason! With the spit swab you may be ending
up with more of a fouled situation in the bore. The
50/50 mix is giving you a cleaner & less fouled bore.
Therefore your groups are opening-up. But if SPIT
worked I'd use it. I shoot APP rem klenbores & the
50/50 mix works great for me in my Omega.
Chemically speaking the ammmonia is probably
removing some deposits in the bore that human
saliva isn't! My 2-cents Danny

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

I guess I would use what works! But just for the sake of conversation, how much Alk/WW are you using? I only use just enough to get a patch damp, and then run a couple of dry patches through the bore afterwards. Is your WW wash the summer blend?

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

Cayugad may have hit the nail on the head. If you are using a product (powder) that does not fowl the bore to much it may be getting too clean (yeh I know) between shots. I use regular bore cleaner at the range and use the alchohol to clean out the bore before I start shooting only. I will sometimes reuse it if I have got the bore too wet but usually it is my oil removing solvent only.

Use the alchohol for your first shot then your "spit" and see if it all works good. I tend to use what works not what everyone else raves about.

I like T/C #13 at the range for spit clean and Hoppe's elite. both make an exellent spit patch. I would try one of them for between shot cleaning. Or just stay with spit.

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

I use APP FF and just moisten the patch. When I use the ALK & WW 50/50 blend it loads real easy so I would like to get it to work. At the moment I have the summer blend of WW the winter blend is real hard to come by in AR this time of year but I am looking. Any body use a 75/25 mix? Lee

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

Using a powder that burns as clean as APP a regular "spit patch" should be plenty. Use what works...

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

It might very well be that APP does not like the mixture of the alcohol. When I shoot APP or Pinnacle, I seldom even swab the barrel. So perhaps this is the case, just the combination of APP and the cleaning fluid. You can always use it at the end of the day for clean up.. Until then, keep on spitting... :D

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

cayugad, you may be right, but I have a hunch [because it loads so easy that the soap in the WW is lubricating the sabot].But I am inclined to try a different mix or a different soap it works so good I hate to just give up on it. I also wonder if other people might be experancing the same thing maybe to a lessor degree and not realizing it. Lee

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

Lemoyne, are you using a dry patch or two after the 50/50 Alcohol-Windex solution?

In other words, is the bore bone dry?

Spit patch followed by dry patch or two does work well and does leave fouling residue in the bore. I can typically get slightly better groups with that procedure for targeting groups.

However, the Hunting POI (Point of impact) I zero on is from a 50/50 Alcohol-Windex cleaned bore.
My procedure to preparefor the hunting zero first and each subsequent shot whenis (After all oils are removed from the bore):
1) Damp (not drenched) spit/water patch down and up, flip and do again.
2) Damp (not drenched) 50/50 Alcohol-Windex patch down and up, flip and do again.
3) Dry patch down and up, flip and do again. I can tell if moisture is still in the bore as the dry patch will hang up a bit on the second time. If so then I run another dry patch process.
4) Load powder, then projectile.
5) If it's raining out or high humidity, run a lightly lubed natural lubed patch followed by a dry patch to control any flash rust that might occur during the day's hunt. If close to or below freezing or low humidity, then I don't bother with a lubed/dry patch after loading.
5) When fired, repeat the same procedure.
6) Repeat the exact same procedure.

What I am after is a very clean and consistant bore for each hunting zero and POI shot.

If I did not fire during a day's hunt and it's high humidity, then I discharge the load at the end of the day, detail clean in the evening and load fresh the next AM with the above procedure. If near or below freezing, then I un-prime and keep the ML stored in ambient outside temperature in a garage ,shed, or truck to keep the bore cold. Don't bring your coldML into room temperature if you are not going to detail clean it immediately.

The bore will draw condensation with the temperature change.

I will say the with the above procedure, the groups themselves are not always quite as tight as when target shooting using spit/dry patches. But, the group locations are always in the same POI area.

Which is what I want to rely on for hunting. I take heart, neck or head shots and I must be able to count on the POI area. I can live with 2" groups at 100 yards as most of my hunting is less than 150 yards.

I find that from a fouled bore the POI tends to increase (Raise)somewhat down range. Sometimes as much as 2-4 inches.

I know lots of guys that intentionally hunt from a fouled bore with great success. I also know that reloading on a fouled (or spit/dry patch) bore is also more difficult

Everyone has their own procedure that works for them.

With respect to a spit patch only. Your saliva has salts in it which can leave a flash rust in the bore during a day's hunt. Which is one of the reasons I don't use the spit patch onlyprocedure for hunting, only for target fun.

;)

Regards,

Tahquamenon

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

[hr]

loading on a fowled bore difficult? ... :D You need my White Rifle. I swear the more dirty the bore gets the sweeter it shoots... Also I fowl my Knight Wolverine, then swab it before I hunt, as I get more consistent accuracy off the fowled bore. Why my Disc is not like that I have no idea. How many I wonder actually fowl their bore before going hunting? Might be an interesting poll.

As for the spit in a person's body, while I am sure it contains body salts.. I wonder if the concentration would be enough to pose a danger of rusting in a days time? That might make for an interesting experiment for someone...

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

This might be an interesting poll. When I first started using an in-line (Knight), it was recommended by Barnes to go afield with a fouled barrel. They indicated that the best accuracy is usually found in the third through seventh shot. Testing at the range confirmed this. But I hated running around with a fouled gun.

Later, over on CVA's old site, there was a poster called "Preacher" who extolled the virtues of swabbing. I have been using that technique ever since. I go afield with a clean dry barrel, and the point of impact remains unchanged if I swab in between shots - at least with the Shockwaves pushed by Pyrodex pellets or 2F Triple 7.

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

Cayugad, are you shooting conical's or sabot's in that White? If conical I'm not surprised that loading becomes easier and more accurate on a fouled bore.

I neglected to specify that I find that saboted projectiles are more difficult to load as the fouling in the bore increases which closed the bore diameter.

Now I re-want a White all over again... Perhaps next year.

:D

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

Tahq - :D for the most part I am shooting conicals out of the White, although I've shot a number of sabots (I think seven in a row) and never swabbed the barrel. Underclocked taught me how to throw the old White Rifle bait out, and troll for another one .. get them all excited and interested and then hook them!! :D My White is a really good rifle SO FAR. I think you need one too.... :eek:

Roskoe.. I remember Preacher on the old CVA site. I don't think many new about swabbing between shots before he started telling his shooting recommendations. In fact because of Preacher, I started using Rusty Duck Black Off which was one of his favorite cleaners.. Of course at that time I did not own a inline rifle yet. All I shot was traditional rifles.. Then was given the CVA Staghorn as a gift. Now its just plain out of control..;)

That was a good site, it seems like ages ago when I used to go over there. There were some great people there and most have moved over here as well.

On my fast twist barrels... The Wolverine and the Black Diamond XR always shot better fowled then clean. The Black Diamond XR will shoot almost an inch off at 100 yards on a clean barrel, so I fowl it. The Knight Disc does not seem to care all that much. The White really likes to be fowled. The CVA is not all that fussy about whether it is fowled, but I shoot most my hunting rifles fowled. My Green Mountain Barrels do not care if they are fowled but are actually about 1/4-1/2 inch difference on a clean barrel. My new CVA Stalker I have not decided.

And I still swab with the alcohol and windshield washer fluid in all of them.

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

I know Preacher was in pretty poor shape healthwise, hope he hasn't left us. Man was full of good info and definitely knew how to achieve accuracy. Seemed to be a nice person as well.

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

How about trying the alchohol straight up without the washing fluid?

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

I normally wipe between shots,and use two dry patches making sure the bore is bone dry. I have not tried pure Alk yet but proably will along with 75/25 for some reason the 75/25 looks good to me at least it will till I try it. If that dont work then I woll try mixing with windex or citrus type soap;I normally scrub with boiling water and citrus soap when cleaning at homeand so the same before hunting my guns have totally clean bores for hunting and are sighted in that way. I have never had a misfire in 42 years of hunting with a muzzle loader so i would say thats what works for me,my POI has always been right in the first group usually slightly 1 inch or less to the right.
I think their are some things to be learned in this sport yet, especally about cleaning solutions and mating them to different powders, I expect one of the next innovations with be a lubricant like we use on spinning lines to keep them from tangling or possably something like graphite sabots. Lee

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

lemoyne

I hve been following along reading all these replys but up now I did not feel that I should or could add my thoughts.

I honestly do not know why but for the past six years I have been using plain old everyday windex with ammonia. This solution on damp - not wet patch has really worked well for me. I am not shooting APP, but a long time ago I did shoot Clean Shot which is/was basically the same thing. It has and does really work well for me. It really works well at removing fouling. Of course one patch between shots will not remove it all but it does get a lot of it - but yet leaves the bore somewhat fouled.

My secret, if i have one, is not to have a wet patch - just damp enough to act as a lubricant but yet damp enough to pick the heavy fouling. I have not had a problem with misfires or hang fires at all using this method and in my case i do not see any differences in POI.

just my 2 bits....

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

Sabotloader,I have a friend at the range that uses a windex combo with good results,I tried the WW first to stay away from the amonia ifI could It can cause rust easier than anything else that I am using of course so can spit,but it looks like it will boil down to what works. Up till this point I had no idea that what I cleaned with would change my group size more than a 100%; it seems like no matter how long I have been shooting that the learning prosess is never ending. Lee

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

A thought I have had that I don't think I've ever seen mentioned is this:
When swabbing between shots (regardless of what liquid is used on the patch), how much of the fouling is pushed down the bore ahead of the patch? With propellants that are very "dirty" (black powder, pyrodex), I see a lot on the patch when it comes out, but I always wonder about the amount that was "piled up" on or near the flash hole before the new charge is placed.
And . . . so as not to hijack this thread - how does Iso/WW compare to others in "trapping" the fouling on the patch?

IM jaybe :)

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

the isopropyl and windshield washer fluid swab does seem to catch a lot of the fowling. Anything will push some of the fowling is my guess, but I have pulled patches with chunks of unburnt powder on the swab when using the alcohol & ww swab.

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

Certainly some fouling get's pushed ahead of a cleaning patch regardless of what solvent or not is used. Which is why it's a great idea to use a nipple or breech plug pick every now and then (Iclean the breech plug or nipple with a pickevery 3-4 shots at the range and after every shot in the field).

I find that T/C #13 is about the most worthless at removing fouling.

I use windex/99% alcohol which not only really cleans the bore, but also rapidly evaporates as a result of the alcohol.

When shooting a 209 ignition breech plug,a good techniqueI have found is to take a Q-Tip and swab the breech plug cup after cleaning the bore and using a nipple pick. This cleans any fouling or moisture if I have too damp of a cleaning patch.

m2c,

Tahquamenon

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

Tahq - you and I sure agree on the T/C #13. I bought a bottle of that when it was on sale at the end of the season. I have never had any luck with that stuff. I know other people like it and that's fine, they can use it.

I also do the Q-tip in the breech plug trick. That really is a good way to keep things clean...

RE: Alk & Wwarsh change group size?
 

jaybe

Actually you would be surprised how little is actually pushed down into or at the nipple. One of my rituals while shooting bench is to look down the bore after patching and before putting the charge down. While patching I do listen for the tail-tail sound ofdry air rushing through the nipple. With the stainless barrels I am using - I am also looking forthe reflection of the light coming through the nipple and creating a bore light in the barrel. I havenot everobserved a lot of loose fouling in the breech plug area or recession. There certainly is some hard fouling from the last ignition but that is about it.

Up until using thisWhite ithas not been necessary to clean the primer pocket or flash channel of the 209 nipples or to use a nipple pick (I am not even sure I have one for the inlines). They just keep on working and have never been a problem to put a primer in or get an expended primer out. With the White and the old style of 209 nipple I have"q" tipping the primer pocket has become a necessity, other wise it is very difficult to get the spent primer out. I have a new breech plug/nipple that i will try this weekend - it is built along a more conventional typenipple. Should work a lot better.