Black Mag3 vs. APP
 

I shot black mag3 and APP side by side today from my Omega. I used CCI 209 primers for both.

Today with the bullets I used (405 powerbelts and 444 powerbelts), BM3 was the more accurate powder. Different guns and different bullets would likely have different results on accuracy.

I give BM3 a slight edge on less residue between shots. Both were much less than 777. No crud ring with either.

BM3 had noticably less smoke from the end of the barrel.

I give BM3 the slight edge in having less felt recoil.

Did not have a chronograph.

BM3had noticably smaller grains even though I was using fff APP. I did notice that BM3 seemed to settle more, possibly due to the smaller grain? Might make if harder to have shot to shot accuracy based on volume alone.

I am going to continue trying both powders with different bullets. I am most interested in Black mag3, so hopefully I can find a good accurate bullet. Today, with 100 gr. BM3 and 405gr powerbelts,I was getting bullets holes touching at 25 yards, and around 2" groups at 50 yards. Should be good enough for the distances I shoot (max 100 yards) but will have to shoot farther next time.

RE: Black Mag3 vs. APP
 

Don't be surprised to find your 100 yard shots "all over the place" with BM3 using those heavy bullets. The one thing in your favor thouis the loose fit of the Powerbelts. So perhaps, you may be alright with your 100 yard groups.... I dunno!

If those were normal 400 gr. sabot/bullets with a moderately-tight fit, I could almost assure you that your target holes would be alot more widespread.

We recently (yesterday?) had a APP thread where the shooter questioned why so much soot existed in the breechplug & around it when he took it out. Well... that's a result of a weak take-off powder like APP that exhibits more back-pressure when exertingenergy tothrust the bullet. Some powders take off like lightning -- some take-off the few few inches of the bore like a turtle.... well maybe a turtle is a bad example...lol [:@]

BM3 is another slow-starting powder that usually works best with light to moderate bullets. But with Powerbelts, your back-pressure should be somewhat less -- due to the slip-fit of the conical.

I'll bet if there was snow on the ground & you shot downward, you would see an abnormal amount of powder in the snow using the combination of powder & bullet that you are using.

Just my opinion... my findings.
Perhaps your findings will be different.

RE: Black Mag3 vs. APP
 

I did try down to 90 grains of each powder, but the accuracy was actually worse to my surprise. Next time I go out, I will hopefully have more time. I would like to try down to 70-75 grains and see what the accuracy does. I need to stay withbig conicalssince I will be hunting Colorado elk this fall. I just feel better using a 400+ grain bullet on them and Colorado requires conicals.

Pyrodex has always been the easiest to find accuracy with in my guns. Even 777 required a lot of experimentation to find an accurate load with conicals, especially powerbelts. I just like the ease of cleanup and lack of "take it straight to cleaning" right after a shooting session. And I love the loss of the "crud ring" with the new propellents. Worth some experimentation.

RE: Black Mag3 vs. APP
 

Txhunter58,

At one hundred yards, you should probably expect a spread of around 5" to 6". For Elk that is more than sufficient as one has a large target in the vital area. If your shots are just touching at25 yards, thenthe bullet stablity is prettygood. Because in this case the 25 yardgroups are the sameMOA as the 50,4 MOA. Even so,as the range lengthens, the MOA is going to broaden.

The precision you are experiencing is the same I have experienced using Williams fiber optic sight, and is the same or better than I have ever seenby any otherperson I knowusing this type of sighting system. Yourprecision would be much better, I believe, if you shot a scope, probably Sub-MOA at 50 yards (your 25 yard precision). I am inclined to think that 95% of the spread in the sighting alone, this from my own experience using GP/Buffalo/Maxiballs and open sights.

You may be able to improve precision just by changing your target. For example, use a bright orange cross. I downloaded one from Targetz.com. I then paint its cross bright orange. It may help you find the center of the target better, it does me at least. If your groups go to 1.5", then thats a 25% improvement in precision and at least15-20% increase in sighting potential for range.

I've not used anything in the PB's other than 295s. The precision I obtained from them was not as good as with ballets. This was in my new Sidekick. I am not ready though to say that the PB's "aren't as precise a projectile" I shot the PB's on a new bore, on thefirst outing with the rifle, so I will give them another try when I feel the bore sufficiently broken in. All the same, I doubt that PB's offer any improvement in precision over the alternatives and since the alternatives are more affordable (and for me, easier to load), you may wish to try them and see how they work for you.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Black Mag3 vs. APP
 

Scopes are not an option where I hunt (Colorado)

I have gotten groups of 3-4" at 100 yards with PB's and 777 and my open sights, so I will be striving for that. As you said, I have found that the target does make a difference.

At least with black mag3, I tried some 460 grain no excuses and couldn't get better than a 4" group at 25 yards! Don't know what was happening there. May try some other big conicals and see.

RE: Black Mag3 vs. APP
 

Those are great groups at 100 yards.

WOW. 4" at 25 yards?! As odd as all this may sound. I've found precision under100 yards to beadequatewith a wide range of charges using GP and Buffaloconicals in my hawken. I've never used the no-excuses conical and I don't own an Omega, though I do know that SteveBNY harvested a doe with the 460 no excuses at 110 yards this past hunting season.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Black Mag3 vs. APP
 

I know, I am the only one that I know for which no excuses were not very accurate. Could be they don't like BM3 for some reason..

RE: Black Mag3 vs. APP
 

Maybe so. Ihave wondered from some of the remarks of Omega owners about conicals, whether the rifling in the Omega is friendly to conicals in general. I really have no clue though. My experience is withcharges I think most, including yourself, would consider light charges, so I am afraid I can't help you on this one. Were you shooting 100 grains of BM3?

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Black Mag3 vs. APP
 

txhunter58 I think you hit the nail right on the head. It was the choice of powder.

I have found that 460 grain No Excuse get the best accuracy using Triple Se7en or Goex 3f. Pyrodex P is a close third most of the time. I think that with a projectile that heavy you need a fast burning powder to get that thing moving. Many of the sub powders are very slow actually in their burn rate when compared to black powder.

There was a show on the other night where they ignited smokeless, and then some black powder. What a difference in burn time. I was a little surprised when the smokeless sat there and "burned" while the black powder was little more then a flash and then smoke.

I really feel that's why Pinnacle 3f, APP, and other substitutes powders, not including in this Triple Se7en, shoot light sabots well and light conicals well like ball-ets, but when something heavy gets in there, it throws them all over the place. At least this has been my experience with it.

My new attitude is, if it is a conical it gets Goex, Swiss, Pyrodex Por Triple Se7en powder and nothing else. I finally got some Triple Se7en 3f powder yesterday. I am hoping to shoot that soon. It should be an interesitng powder. I have heard from some respected posters about the qualities of it and am looking forward to reproducing those results.

RE: Black Mag3 vs. APP
 

Cayugad,

When using the Pinnacle 3f, APP, what were your 50 yard groups like?

I wonder what the factor inhibitingaccuracy is. It seems to me that bullet stability is the primary factor, all other things equal. BP develops a higher spike in pressure earlier, which would help the bullet obturate earlier and perhaps more completely.I've yet to shoot ascorbic acid based powder with aconical heavier than 385 grains though I had intended to. Maybe I'll have to rethink that.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Black Mag3 vs. APP
 

with sabots.. and the substitute powders, as long as I did not get out the 375 grain & 405 grain sabots I like to shoot, the accuracy was excellent. Out of my Wolverine, it would have bordered exceptional because of the scope. With concials though, it was terrible. I was lucky to hold a four and five inch group at 50 yards with conicals and that is not acceptable even with open sights..

RE: Black Mag3 vs. APP
 

What do you suppose the difference the PB's are making for txhunter58? He is getting 2" groups with them at 50 and similar MOA at 25 yards. Generally, on would expect the MOA to widen considerbly as range increases when a load just doesn't "fit". The Powerbelts themselves, even in 405 grain weights, seem to be grouping pretty well with them. I'm no sharp shooter but txhunter is obtaining groups better than Iam capableof obtaining with the same sighting system. I would consider him a better marksman than myself, no doubt.

I am puzzled by theimproved accuracy of the PB's over the other conicals he has tried. Puzzled, in that, I am clueless as to why they perform so much better. Any ideas as to what is at the root of it?

RE: Black Mag3 vs. APP
 

I've shot a lot of rifles and the one thing I have learned is there is no way to judge what one rifle will like. I have four Renegades. One of them hates conicals of any sort. One of them shoots any conical or sabot I shove down it. I have yet to figure this out. The others will shoot about anything although they shoot roundball better then conicals.

Same with inline rifles I guess. Although most of them have a 1-28 twist, some like the light bullets and some like the heavy. All you can do is try different combinations until you find the one that rifle likes.

RE: Black Mag3 vs. APP
 

It seems I am too inquisitive. My better half often makes fun of my insatiable desire to understand what makes this or that tick just the way it does. In the end, I guess it will always be a mystery, and what would life be without any mystery?

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Black Mag3 vs. APP
 

Here is something else to chew on. My brother and I both have T/C Omegas 50 cal. When I first tried 777 and powerbelts, I started with 100 and 110 grains and 348 powerbelts. I was getting 5 inch groups at 25 yards with that combination! However, I dropped to 90 grains of 777 and the bullets were again almosttouching. Now, my brother shoots 110 grains 777 with the same 348 powerbelts in his gun, and he gets great accruacy/groups (basically touching at 25 yards). Identical guns with much different tastes in powder.

Also, you have to remember, the good groups I was talking about were off a bench rest with sandbags front and rear. I doubt that I am any better of a shot.

RE: Black Mag3 vs. APP
 

TXHUNTER58,
I have had the same trouble with BM3 and the No Excuses 460. Huge groups compared to 777 2F. With 777 I get around 1.5" to 2" groups at 100 yards using 90 grains. With BM3 I did good to get 2" groups at 25 yards. I feel it works better with lighter bullets as the 250gr Shockwaves shot very similar to the my 777 load with BM3.

As far as the PB's shooting better it could be the plastic cup is doing abetter job of sealing the bore than a conical. Maybe they are not obturating quick enough or something like that.