209 Primers
 

I have been reading the Forums and am wondering do the 209 primers really make a difference in accuracy. Can I sight in with CCI and switch to Winchester latter or other primers.
If so how much and does powder charge (meaning caps have no difference with X amount of powder or less ,or more) come into play.
Just want to get everyones views.
Also this being asked are all caps equal as far as performance and being clean. Or do some caps stand out from the others. Mike

RE: 209 Primers
 

I've always hunted with the old Hawkens with #11 caps and roundballs so my experience with 209 primers is limited. I bought my first in-line (Traditions Pursuit) last November and got some Remington 209's since they were advertised as "clean burning".(I had trouble with the gun staying closed and sent it back toTraditions). Anyway,with the Rem 209'sI had lots ofhard crudbuilduparound the nipple and fouling in the receiver area only after a couple of shots. If Win or CCI or any of the other brands are any dirtier, I wouldn't want to use them. However in all fairness, the fouling problem probably had a lot to do with the gun not having a good tight fit against the firing pin face plate but I'm not sure.Any thoughts or opinions?
Mike

RE: 209 Primers
 

Sorry, I may have strayed a little from your original question but as far as accuracy goes, my gun with the Rem 209's shot really well right out of the box using a variety of loose Pyrodex RScharges. Couldn't ask for much better accuracy and don't know myself if other brands of primers have any effect or not. Would be interesting to know if anyone else has noticed a difference.

RE: 209 Primers
 

I haven't compared 209 primers of different makes however I did find a noticable difference in velocity using a 209 Winchester vs a .25ACP conversion with small rifle primers. I believe the more powerful standard 209 added to the velocity and I have a source that also backs this up. I believe that primers of different power will affect the final velocity so the newer "made for black powder" primers may shoot a little slower than the old standard shotgun 209 primers. Be careful when selecting primers as some of the ones packaged for black powder are just standard shotgun primers repackaged. Some are actually reduced power primers. RWS now makes a specific black powder 209 primer but I cannot find them anywhere.

RE: 209 Primers
 

Mike Hill

Mike I do believe that primers can effect accuracy. The amount if heat applied to the charge will begin the burning of the powder. The more fire the a larger amount of powder ignited - the faster the spike occurs. There is a difference in velocity from very hot 209's down to cool 209's.
If you change from one brand of 209 to a different brand but they are in about the same heat range the accuracy should not suffer.

Just my 2 bits again

RE: 209 Primers
 

Any time you change any part of your loading or shooting procedure, there is a chance that it can effect the accuracy of the projectile. It might be to only a short degree, but it can. I suggest find a primer that works for you and your rifle, and is in your price range and stick with it. I for instance really like the new Remington Kleenbore Primers because I shoot loose powder 99% of the time and the cooler primer seems to be just the ticket. If I shoot pellets I then use Winchester W209 primers. They have just a little more fire and seem to make the pellets ignite andbehave better. Therefore they effect accuracy.

RE: 209 Primers
 

They can affect accuracy in several ways,Using myself as an example but knowing other people have experanced the same.
My system one 54 cal. barrel loads smooth and ease works well with #11 or musket cap but when I got the conversion to 209 the groups openned right upthis gun shoots 4.5 inch groups @ 200yd with musket caps with 209 some group but some will be a foot away.I was using 777 aty the time it has a higher ignition temp. and I think it was moving the sabot some befor the powder ignited,to check I loaded with out powder and measured the location of the bullet and sabot, when I fire 209 it moved an inch. The 50 cal barrel for that gun has the same problem. My new Omega is tighter and I am using APP which is the easiest of all except black to ignite and it will shoot sub one inch groups with winchester 209's.
It is one of those things where a lot of other factors can change it. Lee

RE: 209 Primers
 

Has anyone noticed any significantfouling (breech plug and receiver area) differences between Remington Kleenbore 209's and other brands?

RE: 209 Primers
 

When shooting loose Triple Se7en I think using the Remington Kleenbore Primers made the crud ring "softer" but it still had to be removed. I could feel it only in my Wolverine LK-II. In the Black Diamond XR if there was a crud ring it was not as large.

RE: 209 Primers
 

When I bought my new in-line and shot it a fewtimes and saw the crud ring, I considered what I was seeing tobe excessive fouling, but from the sound of things, it must be pretty normal. I just hadn't anticipated that. Muzzleloaders will be muzzleloaders I guess.

RE: 209 Primers
 

Mike AR, I think what you were seeing in the receiver area was due to the problem you described with the rifle's fit. Most any rifle will have some degree of blowback and fouling in that area regardless of primer used. Primers are not standard in dimension though so a tighter fitting primer might save you a bit of that grief. As to inside the bore - you are very likely to have that internal crud ring with Triple7.

RE: 209 Primers
 

Been using the Winchester standard 209 primers since I started using an inline and never had any problems with them. I have used them with pellets and loose 777 and have nothing but praise for how well they work IN MY RIFLES.

RE: 209 Primers
 

I have heard for awhile that cooler primers seem to work better with 777. Anyone have any info about using them with Black mag3?

RE: 209 Primers
 

I shoot Black Mag'3 with the .25ACP conversion using Winchester small rifle primers which are pretty cool compared to the 209 primers. I have very good results with BM3 using the cooler rifle primers. I also know that standard #11 percussion caps will ignite BM3 just fine. It is easier to ignite than 777.

RE: 209 Primers
 

Wow guys thanks for the response. I did figure that different primers ignite and burn at different temps. thus would burn the powder at different rates of speeds. The hotter the primmer the faster the rate of powder burn. I just wasn't sure how much difference there was in primers. Thanks again Mike

RE: 209 Primers
 

Can any of you experienced in-line guysor re-loaders list some of the different 209 primers on the market made specifically for muzzleloaders without too much trouble? And, could you list them in order from hottest to coolest? And, how do you know which are hotter or cooler?I'm assuming the list would be short but don't know.

RE: 209 Primers
 

As mentioned before. There are some primers marked for muzzleloaders that are just standard shotgun primers repackaged so it is a little confusing. Remington just came out with a primer that is reduced power (actually the old .410 primer from information I have been able to get) Now called the Kleen-bore or something like that. Winchester has marketed a black powder primer for some time that was really just the standard shotgun primer repackaged and marked up in price. From what I remember Federal 209 primers are the hottest, then Winchester and Remington standard 209 shotgun primers, then CCI, then then new Remington Kleen-bore then the new RWS (Dynamit Nobel) 209 which I cannot find anywhere that has been made specifically for muzzleloaders. I may be a little off on listing from hottest to coolest but this is close. Anyone else want to help?

RE: 209 Primers
 

MLKeith

I do not believe the new Kleenbore ML primers are anyway close to the old Remington 209-4 primer. The 209-4 is a whole lot cleaner and seems to be even cooler than the new designated ML primer.

The new Kleenbore ML does not appeal to me at all because of price and the amount of material that it leaves in the breech area. I am forunate to still have 2/3000 - 209-4's left so that will take care of me for awhile. Another cooler 209 that I have used with really good luck is the Cheddite 209 - I think it is a tad cooler than the Winchester 209, but it is strong enough to start t7 pellets on really cold miserable days. And most important for me shooting Remingtons 700ml it is not very dirty. If I run out of 209-4's the Cheddite would be my next move.

RE: 209 Primers
 

SL, are the Cheddites also a bit smaller physically? I've meant to try some of those for a long time but keep forgetting. Fancy that! :)

RE: 209 Primers
 

Underclocked

Age - it does take its toll & I should know...

You know UC I use them in all my trap shells, Remington, AA's, and even some odd ball stuff andthey work just fine into the primer pockets. In the ML's they fit great and come out easy. I have not mic'ed them but tey seem pretty comparable to the 209-4's.

I have gone through maybe 30,000 of them shooting trap and I can not remember a misfire due to the primer, I can rememder several misfires with the bb's running out on the ground - but that was the loaders fault, I mean the mechanical loaders fault, for not putting any powder in the shotshell, Gees come to think about the loader has done that in my ML once or twice also.

They really seem to be a cleaner 209 also...

RE: 209 Primers
 

My velocity and accuracy testing of various loads indicated to me that No. 11 caps with tiny holes in the nipples for the primer flash gave much more uniform velocities and better accuracy than I was able to achieve with other types of nipples and adaptors that had larger vent holes and whichused more powerful primers, such as small rifle primers or 209's. However, the Mag-Spark nipples that permit the use of 209 primers with a sidelock rifle have produced outstanding accuracy and ignition performance on the target range.

I have used two brands of 209 primers in my rifles-the Federals, and the Winchester brand made specifically for muzzleloading. The Win. primers worked great, and were easy to get out of the nipples. But the federals got stuck in the nipple every time, and were the very devil to remove-totally unsuitable for hunting. Of course, these were made for loading shotshells, not for muzzleloading.

RE: 209 Primers
 

Of what I have been reading, anytime you make a change in primers, bullets or powder, you will at least need to double check to see if things havent moved. I do know that the Winchester 209 primer is the hottest primer out there.

Dave

RE: 209 Primers
 

What did you base that conclusion on? I believe the Federal primers are hotter than the Winchester and so do a lot of others.