58. Caliber
 

How do you all like the 58. caliber? Would it be good for elk? How doese it compare to a 54. caliber?

RE: 58. Caliber
 

If your shooting roundball the .58 caliber roundball is a much better choice for larger animals. The ball is 25% bigger which means a larger surface area, bigger hole and probably better long range power. Don't under estimate the .54 caliber though, that is a tuff caliber to beat. Many claim that is the most accurate caliber there is for roundball. Whether one agrees or disagrees with that, it is a real game taker.

RE: 58. Caliber
 

Both Cayugad& I can vogue for it's accuracy with roundball. It's now my favorite ML rifle.

RE: 58. Caliber
 

Got one last year...terrific...2 bucks last year, 2 bucks this year;
It would be outstanding for Elk;
It is more powerful than the .54cal;

RE: 58. Caliber
 

My .58 caliber Green Mountain Barrel on the Renegade stock with 110 grains of Goex 2f and a patched roundball is the most accurate open sighted rifle I own. The best I did was at 100 yards one afternoon off a bench rest I shot under a 2" group. I only have done that once, but that just shows the rifle has the ability .. now only if I did.[&o]

Roundball can attest to the killing power of them. He's wiped out half the bucks in the woods where he lives and caused the other half to pack their bags and leave the area for fear of him and that rifle... :D

RE: 58. Caliber
 

I really like 58's! There is a reason why both the British and US governments settled on the .58 (.577) for their rifle-musket caliber - it is excellently balanced for a ML rifle.

I only own one, a flintlock Hawken with a 36" Green River Rifle Works .58 barrel with a 1/60" twist. Despite this slow twist, it is very accurate both with round balls, and the Lyman .57730 Minie bullet which weighs 570 grains. I size my Minie balls to .575", and use the same powder charge with both PRB and Minie-120 grains of FFg. The MV with PRB is 1600 FPS, and 1200 with the Minie.

If I ever had an elephant or rhino rooting upmy back yard, I'd use the 570-grain Minie!

The .54 is a good caliber, but the .58 is much better suited for game like elk, moose, & big ol', mean ol' Grizzeley Bears!!

.58 Flintlock Hawken Weight 9 pounds even.

RE: 58. Caliber
 

That Sir... is a beautiful rifle. I am impressed with the lines and style of that rifle. It is true beauty for the eye. If is shoots as well as it looks that must be a fantastic shooting rifle as well.

People wonder why I own as many rifles as I do, and believe this or not, I get a great deal of satisfaction from just looking at my gun rack and inspecting all the rifles there. I enjoy them all. From the inlines down to the simple CVA Mountain Stalker. They all have an appeal to them.

That rifle you have might even need to have a special place to hang on a wall, like a work of art. Very pretty!!

RE: 58. Caliber
 

Thank you! Since I built the thing, I consider that a real compliment, coming from a person as knowledgeable as you.

Yes, it does shoot quite well, due no doubt to the GRRW barrel. I started building this rifle around 1977, and finished it in 1979! I kept running into "builders' block", which I understand is a lot like "writers' block" that plagues authors from time to time!

Strange thing about this rifle-it shoots both PRB and the Minie ball to almost exactly the same POI at 100 yards with that 120-grain powder charge. Good thing, too, since it has fixed sights!

Other side. All furniture is German Silver, and the stock is cherry wood.
This .58 is the LAST RIFLE I've actually completed.

I am now working on a .73-cal. Jaeger with a 28" barrel. Everything is completed on it except the sliding wooded patchbox and stock finishing. It has gone pretty well up 'til now. Will post a picture when it's done.....

RE: 58. Caliber
 

Do round balls do alot of damage? I think a 54. on antelope would drop em. But for elk it would be nice to have a 58. If I had both barrels what would you say I would want to take hunting for large mule deer? Also, the GMB has a 1-70" twist I think. Is that twist fine or would it be better to find one with a 1-60" twist? If you suggest anything other than the GMB please give me a link.
Thanks

RE: 58. Caliber
 

http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/catalog.aspx?catid=HawkenRenegadeStyleRifles

there is a link to your replacement barrels. The .58 caliber will work excellent on elk, deer, large mule deer, antelope, anything you want to shoot. The .54 caliber will also work on those animals. It is just that the .58 caliber might put a little more hydrostatic shock into the animal because of the larger size ball and the weight of the projectile. Both are going to get the job done if you put that ball in the right place.

Roundballs in .54 caliber, even .50 caliber have been killing deer, elk, bear and most any other animal they encountered for many years... Shot placement is most important. If you can not hit what you aim at there is no use shooting anything out there.

Try hunting a year with the Renegade you have in .54 caliber. If you doubt the knock down of the roundball, then switch to a large conical and shoot that. It will have the same effect or even more, then a .58 caliber roundball.

RE: 58. Caliber
 

I would like to use roundballs. Maybe a ball-et in the 54. I would like to try the 58 for elk with roundballs. I think it would have alot of nock down and would put elk down in 20yds or less with the right shot. The 54 is still a real big caliber. It would take an elk with no problem. But is doese not hurt to have a variety of calibers. I went hunting in Texas and lost a small deer using a 243. The next day a guy found it and said it was a perfect shot. I just like to make sure I wont loose an animal. I also dont wantem to suffer that much at all to. I know I dont need to be so worried but 58 is a nice caliber!

RE: 58. Caliber
 

Would a 54 with ball-ets for round balls be good on elk? How would the 54 with ball-ets compare to the 58 with round balls?

RE: 58. Caliber
 

The faster they move, of course, the more damage they do, but a round ball loases velocity fast! Yet, within 100 yards, a .54 will make a pretty big hole all the way through a deer, and at least 3/4 of the way through an elk. And naturally, the .58 is even bettedr.

My .58 with a 1/60" twist is accurate at 100 yards with a 570-grain Minie ball as well as a PRB!

The Lyman 570-grain 57730 Minie bullet between two .45/70 rounds. Do you think that bullet will kill elk (or whatever) at 1200 FPS MV??

RE: 58. Caliber
 

Eldequello,
That is one beautiful rifle!!!

I have a T/C Renegade with a 58cal barrel for it. It shoots very well and a 58cal PRB packs a huge punch!

RE: 58. Caliber
 

So a 58. would be better but a 54. will do just fine. Right?

RE: 58. Caliber
 

Thanks! I plan to try it on deer here in PA come flintlock season - of course, I'll just shoot PRB in it - the Minie is a bit on the "overkill" side.

RE: 58. Caliber
 

Right! You put that .54 in the right spot, and it will do just fine - with either a round ball or one of those "ball-ettes"! (Most of the Hawken rifles used by the Mountain Men were .54 caliber OR LESS. The one Jedediah Smith used was called a ".54", but it used .526" balls!

RE: 58. Caliber
 

Actually I would consider 54 the most versatile caliber sidelock.

The 54 actually has better down range performace than the 58 as the larger ball drops that much more and looses energy more rapidly downrange.

In 54, A PRB will cleanly take mostanything in north america and you could always load hefty with a big conical and then you are set for dangerous or really tough game.

My opinion.

RE: 58. Caliber
 

According to the Lyman BP Handbook, the .58 round ball has a higher B.C. than the .54. ( .535 = .075; .570 = .080) As a matter of fact, as the diameter of a round ball increases, so does the ballistic coefficient of the ball, becausethe coefficient of form for a round ball is the same regardless of diameter, and a ball's weight increasesina greater-than-linear progression. What this means is that, if launched at the exact, same velocity, a larger, heavier ball will ballistically outperform a smaller one every time!

Because of this, for a .54 to exhibitbetter down range velocity levels, energy levels, and less drop than a .58, it has to be launched faster than the .58. However, that is relatively easy to accomplish. For example, the "standard" charge for the Hawken plains rifle was generally stated to be "one-half the weight of the ball". So in a .54 with a 230-grain ball, this is 115 grains. Not at all out of line. I personally use 110 in my .54 Hawken. But for a .58, in which the ballweighs over 270 grains, this charge would have to be 135 to 140 grains, which is quite an increase just to get to the same velocity the 115-grain load gives in the .54.

Basically, the .54is generallyloaded to give a higher MV than is the .58.Consequently, its' downrange performance is more impressive.

Additionally, there's a BIG differencein recoil! Given an 8.5 pound rifle, a .54 with a 230-grain ball and 115 grains of powder gives 32 Foot/Pounds of recoil at 1700 FPS MV. A .58 of the same weight firing a 270-grain ball at the same MV, using 140 grains of powder, has 48 Ft/Lb of recoil-an increase of 50% over the .54!!

RE: 58. Caliber
 

Would a ball-et shoot fine out of a slow twist 58.? I think I will stay with the 54. for a few years.

RE: 58. Caliber
 

Wouldnt 140gr of powder be a little too much?

50% increase in recoil? 32x2=64.

RE: 58. Caliber
 

Out of a 1-70" twist 58 caliber is it possible to get it shooting ball-ets with a little work?
Also, I have been looking at GM barrels. Anyone know of any other good barrels that would fit a Renegade? How about with a twist a tad bit faster than 1-70". 1-60" or a 1-48" would be better I think. Then you have bigger variety of bullets.

RE: 58. Caliber
 

Some guys on another forum say the 58 with a 1-78" twist and a round ball is fantastic. They really really really love the caliber. They said the recoil isn't too bad and it will take down anything in North America. They said it can drop Elk and deer in their tracks.

RE: 58. Caliber
 

The .58 caliber Green Mountain Barrel with a 1-70 twist is all the rifle you would need to hunt anything in North America. Shooting a 284 grain .58 caliber roundball is a monster chunk of lead when you consider many people are shooting a 240 or 250 grain .45 caliber projectile in their sabots. Roundballs are deadly. They have been killing critters for many years and will continue to do so for many more.

RE: 58. Caliber
 

NOT if you consider the old-time Hawken load formula to be correct - in a .58, half the weight of the ball would work out to be about 140 grains.....

Twice 32 is indeed 64, but that is doubling it-in other words, a 100% increase from 32,not a 50% increase.......

IS there such a thing as a .58 cal. ball-ette? I believe any bullet that is no longer than 1.5 X the bore diametrer will shoot OK from a slow twist. After all, the U.S. Springfield rifle-musket of .58 caliber has a 1/72" twist, and it shoots 530-grain conical hollow based bullets quite well (Minie Balls!).

RE: 58. Caliber
 

Buffalo Bullet Company does make a 405 grain ball-et with a hollow base and a hollow point. I shoot them out of my 1-70 twist Green Mountain Rifle with very good results actually. I up 90 grains under them and they will really rattle the steel bullet trap when they hit down range.

RE: 58. Caliber
 

Sounds good to me! I am getting excited. I would like a 58 before next September! Cayugad can send me his to barrow. Just kidding:D