crud ring
 

I took my ML to the range for the first time and the second shot was very hard to load,especiallythe last two inches. I'm using triple 7 powder with powerbelt bullets. I ended up cleaning the bore after every shot. Is there a way to reduce the crud ring so more than one shot can be fired without cleaning? I've heard of shooting with a wet bore, what does that include? Would the use of bore butter help?

RE: crud ring
 

After some searching I found out that 777can leave a heavy crud ring and my gun must not like the stuff. I think I will buy some American Pioneer Powder and see how that works. It sounds like a clean powder that doesn't leave much fowling. My only concern is that some sayit's less powerfull.

RE: crud ring
 

You could try using the loose 777 and/or a weaker primer. If you can find some 209-4 primers as used on 410 shotshells, some have had luck combating the crud ring that way. I have not had any problems with it myself and can load 8 to 10 powerbelts with out swabbing but accuracy is better if I swab. Using 250gr shockwaves I can shoot 6 or 7 without swabbing and still get good accuracy, after that I have to brush out the plastic fouling. Unlike some on this forum, I do notswab withalcohol or such before loading to shoot, just a few dry patches to get the majority of the lube out of the barrel, then pop a 209 or two and load as normal. Never had a problem with ignition and I have no crud ring. I also use automotive type antiseize on the breach plug and can shoot 777 all day and not have to loosen the breach plug till I'm ready to clean the gun at home, comes out with little more than finger pressure. If your gun is new, you will probably find that it gets better the more you shoot it, mine has 3 to 4 hundred rounds under its belt and I think it shoots better now than ever. Good luck and keep us posted.

RE: crud ring
 

What your experiencing is a hard crud build up caused by the Triple Se7en powder. Many shooters have to swab with a damp patch between each and every shot to remove that crud ring to make sure they are seating the bullet properly.

I swab with a patch that I dampen with 50/50 isopropyl alcohol and car windshield washer fluid (summer blend). I work that in short strokes from muzzle to breech, flip it and do it again. Then run two dry patches. This will normally remove even the hardest crud ring. If now wrap the damp patch around a bore brush and swab the bore with that.

Shooting from a damp or wet barrel is not a good idea. Moisture and gun powder do not get along. Even a little moisture can effect powder and there for give you inconsistent loads. It would be hard to judge the true potential of a load if every load was different. Shoot on a dry barrel.

Also the bore butter I personally avoid. It will also cause sabots to be inconsistent. Although some people do butter their sabots and claim it helps them load and they shoot fine. I have yet to see a manufacturer or bullet maker recommend such an idea of buttering a sabot.

As for changing powders, well that is an option. There are powders out on the market that make swabbing a thing of the past almost. American Pioneer, Pinnacle, Shocky Gold (American Pioneer filtered twice I was told), and Black Mag3. There is still some Clear Shot and Clean Shot floating around out there... I have been shooting some Pinnacle. It is a very clean burning powder, but does not like heavy projectiles.

One other powder is Pyrodex. I know a lot of people hate the mess of pyrodex and black powder for that matter, but hard crud rings do not form from the powders. They are also one of the most consistent powders for burning, still being produced. I've been told, a lot of the manufacturers test their rifles with Pyrodex which should tell you something. Yes the fowling is nasty, but you can load a second and even a third shot if you really had to, and with the 209 ignition get them to fire. I do it all the time with Goex. Goex is said to be even worse then Pyrodex. After all is done, you still have to clean the rifle at the end of the day.. no matter what kind of powder you use.

Good luck with your rifle.

RE: crud ring
 

Use weak primers like standard CCIs & the new Remington Kleanbores. Use loose FFF 777 & swab with a bore brush instead of a jag after every 2nd shot. That should alleviate most of that crud.

RE: crud ring
 

I had4 Remington ML primers fail to fire 2 pellets of 777. Since then, I switched to American Pioneer Powder FFG and Winchester primers. I use 348 Powerbelts (295's sometimes). No problems loading 7-8 Powerbelts without cleaning in between.I shoot an Omega Z5 and Encore 209X50.

RE: crud ring
 

What gun & was this after an all day hunt?

Hard to compare the two powders in the same pellet form since APP does not come in the Pyrodex/777 pellet shape or diameter. Had APP did come in the same pellet design, you would of encounterd the same circumstances.

In two separate tests I conducted using both powders in loose formula, I sat them side-by-sidein an open-door pickup seat for several hours in cold, damp conditions. Afterwards, 777 fired instantly & APP didn't due to it's sugary constitution.

I have 17 hours invested into shooting/testingtwo jugs of APP. I've conducted different types of weather/shooting tests with it. I like the APP powder when applied to inlines. My Omega absolutely loves it.

Just remember to keep the hottest Federal 209A primers nearby when hunting for long periods with any blackpowder or subsitute. Weaker primers like Remington Kleanbores cannot be trusted to fire your powder on foul, humid weather days.

RE: crud ring
 

It was a Pursuit LT, at the range, when sighting it in. In my opinion, the Remingtons are not hot enough................

RE: crud ring
 

I had a fascinating experience with primers recently. I was using Winchesters at the range with BM3.I bummed a few Kleanbores from a buddy to see what they would do. Lo-and-behold, the Shockwaves hit 6" low and sprayed over the paper.[:'(] Lesson learned: you can't just switch primers. Since T7 burns faster than BM3, the Kleanbores may be hot enough. CCIand regular Remington primers would be an in-between choice if the Kleanbores don't kick the T7 hard enough; I had good luck using regular Remingtons back when I was still using loose T7.

Paul (rabbitbuster)

"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." -- Marcus Aurelius

RE: crud ring
 

I tried using the Remington Kleenbore primers with the T7 pellets and it did not leave a hard crud ring! My point of impact also changed, which I will correct the next timeat the range. I shot 3 shots without cleaning at 50 yrds and the first two shots were touching and the third was an inch away. At 100yrds I put three shots within a three inch circle. They were just 4inches high and 4 inches to the right. I now have a combo that I'm comfortable to hunt with. Thanks for the input.

RE: crud ring
 

I'm just wondering, why wouldn't one want to clean between each shot regardless of how dirty the powder is? I can understand if you're at the range just to feel the recoil and see the pretty smoke, but if you're shooting for accuracy or sighting in, wouldn't you want each shot to leave a barrel that's as clean as possible?

When I go to the range I pay particular attention to the very first shot of the day. That's because when I'm out hunting, that's the shot I'm going to take. It's the one that's going to be leaving a gun that was just cleaned the night before, which means zero crud and zero dirt. That's why when I'm on the range I clean religiously, swabbing until it's perfect. I even take the breech plug out and clean that. I want each succeeding shot to be fired under the same exact conditions as the first one. I know you can't get every little speck of dirt out in the field, but I try my best.

RE: crud ring
 

I rely on two shots before swabbing at the range to help recreate a live hunting experience that may require a very fast reload & 2nd shot during hunting season due to a wounded/still moving animal.

I've shot one with a muzzleloader that could only move at a human's normal walking pace& it was leaving very little blood on wet ground/leaves as I trailed it.Iacted fast out of premonition& thus was rewarded with a5-pointer whitetail that day -- about 45 yards from where I first shot it. Had I not gotten up & not been ready to fire right after my first shot, that deer would of traveled a long way in the normal 10 minutetime span I usually give to a deer charging off at full speed after being hit.

RE: crud ring
 

While I agree swabbing between shots on a range when testing sabots or other projectiles is a good idea to keep all things standard, like Triple Se7en I also like to shoot under hunting situations to make sure the rifle will take care of any problem I might encounter, such as a fast second shot.

Today I was shooting my Green Mountain Barrel in Stainless Steel. A .50 caliber with 1-28 twist. I plan on shooting it during out muzzleloader season, when scopes are not allowed. So I was trying some new maxiballs out of it with open sights. I was only shooting 75 grains of Goex 2f, but never swabbed the barrel for seven shots. I just like to see that it will hit over and over in the same area.



It finally threw the seventh shot a little. I went in, swabbed the barrel, put up another target and it was right back on the money... That also is important.

I am lucky. I experience no hard crud ring in any of my rifles. At least nothing that a simple swabbing will not remove. Also there is no projectile that I shoot that I could not load on average three or more without a swab. If I had to swab every shot, it would be a target range projectile only, never a hunting load.

RE: crud ring
 

Like the others said, I'm looking for a load I can hunt with. I want to be able to take 2 or 3 shots out in the field without worrying about cleaning or not being on target.

RE: crud ring
 

My Omega will not shoot more than two loads of any sabot/bullet combination that I have found yet but the accuracy is great. I also want to be able to make a follow-up shot if needed, so I found that if I shoot a 300gr. SST for my first shot I can follow it up with a 295gr. Powerbelt and get impact within an inch or two of the first shot from 80 to 100 yards. I used this exact combination last year and the big cow elk did not go down on the first shot which took out one lung and clipped the liver. My second shot with the powerbelt as she bolted and started to run did the trick. I impressed myself with the running shot and was really glad I had a second shot that I could load without more than 10 or 15 seconds expended. The first shot would have done it eventually but I did not want the cow to get somewhere inaccessible.

RE: crud ring
 

I USE 777 IN PELLET FORM WITH A 225GR. AERO-TIP
POWERBELT IN 45CAL. I JUST DON'T HAVE THE CRUD
RING. I DO SWAB AT THE RANGE WITH THE 50-50
SOLUTION. I ALSO USE THE NEW REM KLEEN-BORE
PRIMERS. TOOK TWO DOES IN EARLY ML SEASON
HERE IN KY. ALSO TOOK A 150LB. 4-POINTER TODAY
AT 100YDS. IT MAY BE THAT I SHOOT ONE OF
THOSE CHEAP CVA'S NEW FRONTIER BEARTOOH MAG
ONLY KIDDING TO EACH HIS OWN BUT ME THE COMBO
WORKS.