Patch problem question
 

Here is another question related to grouping problems with my Hawkens.

I am shooting:
.50 cal InvestArms Hawkens, 1:48 twist, bore 0.526"
0.020" patch, 0.490" Rem. premier golden lead ball, 80 grains pyrodex

After taking a shot, I have found that my shooting patch has a hole blown through the middle of it and I am wondering what the cause could be. I have a muzzleloader book that says that this is a "big problem", then follows with "it is up to the shooter to determine the problem" (not much help!).

Can anyone tell me what the causes of ahole blown through a patch, and suggestions about what the problem could be? Under ideal conditions, should the fired patch be intact (no holes in it)?

Thanks,
Rick C.

RE: Patch problem question
 

Normally if you find a shredded patch or blown patch I suggest going to a thicker patch. This is not the case with you. It sounds like you have a ruff bore. The bore is engaging the patch on the way out and as it spins tearing it apart.

First thing I would try is putting a wonderwad under the patch between the powder and the patch and ball and see if the patch comes out perfect. I have shot patches and could have and have reused them they were in that pristine condition. This is normally only possible when you use a bore button.

If that does not help and the patches are still being blown, then I would get some J-B Bore Paste and a piece of Scotch Brite Pad and shine the ruff spots out of the bore. This is not lapping mine you, this is just taking the ruffspots out of the bore.

I should ask, is the accuracy good? If it is, then don't worry about it unless that really bothers you. Also is the rifle new? Many times, new rifles are ruff in the bore and over time and lots of shooting will smooth themselves out and that problem will disappear.

RE: Patch problem question
 

cayugad,
The accuracy is not good, grouping is also not very good (see my previous posts). The gun is over 15 years old andwell used. Thanks for your suggestions, I will try this and see what happens. By the way, can you tell me who would sellwonderwad? I have not been able to find any on the internet web stores.

-Rick C.

RE: Patch problem question
 

If a hole is blown through the middle of a patch, which is the center sitting directly overpowder,it sounds to me like the fire is burning through it...makes me first question the type and/or amount of lube.

So simple Test#1 is to heavily lube the patches with something like Natural Lube 1000 and see if they stop burning through;

If they still burn through, thensimple Test#2is to first seat a set of two spare patches together down on the powder first as a firewall...then seat your patched ball normally.

One or the other of these remedies should solve the problem.

RE: Patch problem question
 

What are you using for patch material? Could be the cloth as well. Does it look burned or shreded?

RE: Patch problem question
 

http://www.rmcsports.com/catalog.htm RMC Sports sell them as do a number of other companies. I get them from RMC because they are lubed with Bore Butter and not over lubed. I like them a lot. They also fit the bore of my .50 caliber perfect.

You can also make your own with a Hollow Hole Punch ..http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=3838 Harbor Freight sells them. And I bought a set from a little tool/junk store that carries every thing for just a few bucks. Then go to the hardware store/lumber yard and get some 100% wool felt that is used as weather stripping and punch your own out. Then dip them in a lube and set them out on wax paper until they reharden. The 1/2 inch hollow hole punch will make the .50 caliber and you need a 9/16th for a .54 caliber. I like them on the big side, so they create a better seal.

RE: Patch problem question
 

I am using Cabelas 0.020" lubed patches. The cloth is almost black, but looks more shredded that burned.

RE: Patch problem question
 

Try some pillowticking you can buy it at Walmart. It will set you back about a buck fifty for half a yard which if it works will last a good long time. If the .490 loads regular not real easy with the patch you are using just try it with the balls you have, I think the pillow ticking is .015 a bit thinner. If it is already loading real easy you may need to try .495 ball with that material.

The reason I suggest trying this stuff is it is very rugged the only time I ever blew it out was with 90g charges of T7 in a real rough bore.

RE: Patch problem question
 

Hey Rick I shoot the EXACT same gun and same load all but the Patch. I use a .015 pre-lubed patch from TC . I have real good accuracy from that load.

RE: Patch problem question
 

PMA is that the T/C pillowticking patch? Does it have stripes on it?

RE: Patch problem question
 

I think Cabelas uses their own lube on those patches. If they do, it's white in color& works well with conicals... not sure about patches thou.

Buy the Bore-Buttered pre-lubed pillow-ticking patches as thick as possible... .018/.020.... the same lubeposter roundball describes. Try them& give us a report. They are packaged by T/C, RedHead, Ox-Yoke& others.

RE: Patch problem question
 

Yup,,thats the one.

RE: Patch problem question
 

All you need is a different lube to try first.... the pillow-tickers are the strongest in material. Put away the Cabelas brand patches& buy another pillow-ticker that's covered with bore butter/wonderlube 1000. Try another patch manufacturer in .018 or .020.

Get yourself some wonderwads too. They protect the patch centers. Also try another brand of roundballs. The gold balls may be more heat-inviting/porous than the silver ones.

One (or all) of these remedies will fix your problem. If the shredding was on the outer edges, I'd suggest smoothing out the bore... but you claim it's not doing that.

RE: Patch problem question
 

You give your groove diameter as 526" , but did not state the land diameter. IT seems to me that your groove diameter is very large for a .50, particularly if you are using a .490" ball. I think a .495 ball would serve you better, or perhaps even a .500" ball. Even with a patch as thick as the one you are using, no matter how much or what kind of lube you are using, if there is a significant disparity between the diameter of your bullet and the land diameter of your bore, powder gases will blow past the ball, causing a "blown" patch. This can only be prevented by using a ball big enough to swage up to groove diameter on firing, thus "obturating" the bore.

Switching to a larger ball may require the use of a THINNER patch than the one you are using for ease of loading, BUT if the ball is big enought to swage up and seal the bore, you will stop blowing patches and the ball wioll seal the bore. This will give you much better accuracy! Iroutinelyuse .500" balls in my .50 with a thin linen patch for targer shooting. Loading is not as easy as with a smaller diameter ball, but accuracy is much better!

The use of a Wonder Wadas suggested above will also do wonders for blown patches-I have to use them when using 777 with aPRB to prevent blown patches. I get mine form Fort Chambers in Chambersburg. PA. I don't know who might carry them there in Frederick, as I'm not familiar with ML shops over there. You could order some from October Country, however. http://octobercountry.com/

RE: Patch problem question
 

I got out to the range today with my TC pillow ticking patches (0.18") and wonder wads. Shot .490 round ball, 70 and 80 grains pyrodex.

Thepatches now are shredding around the edges, not blown through like before (with/without wonder wad). Groups are a little better, but still about 6" at 50 yards.

I guess the next thing I will try is have my gunsmith take a look at the crown and the barrel, hopefully he will be able to tell me if it needs work or not.

Thanks for all of the suggestions of things to try.

-Rick C.

RE: Patch problem question
 

Just to be sure we're on the same page, it's normal for patches to get frayed around the edges...here's 40 from a range session...top 20 show the powder or burn side, bottom twenty are sides that were around the balls. (.015" prelubed TC plain cotton patches)

RE: Patch problem question
 

Shredding around the outside of the patch is normal like Roundball said. Have you tried increasing the powder charge to 90 of Pyrodex. According to my Investarms manual from my sidelock, that is the recommend and max load for the rifle. 90 grains of 2f and a .490 patched roundball. You might have one of them rifles that like either real light (like 50 grains) or real heavy loads... All you can do is try.

Also when you load the patched roundball, are they a tight fit? I have some rifles that you really have to pop that short starter with your hand to get them going down the bore. If the ball loads too loose you might have pressures blowing past the patch. The wad is now protecting the patch. So how hard does this thing load?

RE: Patch problem question
 

Thanks for clearing up the patch edge issue. I was thinking that the patch should be in perfect condition.My patches look very similar to roundball's photo with some fraying around the edges, but nohole in the center after using the pillow ticking patches.

I found that after shooting 70 grain and 80 grain sets, the 70 grain was tighter by about an inch. Imay drop down to 60or 50 to see what happens, but I want a reasonableload for whitetail.

The 0.490 ball with 0.18 patch is very tight, does require poping the starter during loading. I am still thinking about having my gunsmith take a look at the barrel, he may have some suggestions as hehas a similar muzzleloader. Thanks again for all of your suggestions.

-Rick C.

RE: Patch problem question
 

I finally brought my gun to the gunsmith tonight. He checked it with a bore scope, said barrel looks great exept for the last inch which has some scratching and digs, probably from ramrod or starter.

He is going to recrown the barrel by taking an inch off the end. I expect that this should take care of at least some of the problems I have had with this gun.From now on I will be using a guide to prevent ramrod and starter damage. Thanks again for all of the suggestions.

-Rick C.