Winchester WML209 Primers
 

These Winchester WML209 primers are said to be made for a muzzleloader. I personally think they were made to throw in the trash can. Although they all ignited fine and fired the charge, they for better words to describe them, BLOW UP IN THE BREECH PLUG.

In fact I had a hard time getting the 209 nipple out of the breech plug of the T/C Black Diamond XR because it is now damaged. I will need to purchase a new 209 nipple for the rifle. For those not acquainted with the design of the Black Diamond XR, the breech plug screws into the rifle, then you have the option of putting a 209 nipple, musket cap nipple or #11 cap nipple into the center of the breech plug. On the 209 nipple, tension is kept on the 209 primer so it does not slide out or back out by a small fine wire that wraps around the nipple in such a way to hold all the things together while still making removal of the spent 209 primer easy. The small fine wire acts as a kind of a spring of sorts. Well my 209 nipple is now missing half the wire as it must have been destroyed when the 209 primers disintegrated. When that happened the Deluxe Breech Plug wrench could no longer slide over the 209 nipple because of the wire end sticking out. So I had to remove it by hand with a screw driver.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I have better things to do then dig out primers from breech plug and then check to make sure all the little pieces are out of the breech area so they do not stop the striker on the next attempt at shooting (at least I did not flinch).

The centers of the primer tend to pop out on ignition. Sometimes they are still in the outer ring of the primer, sometimes in the breech, and sometimes who knows where. There were also occasions where the primer itself seem to disintegrate. Besides the hot metal pieces landing on your off trigger hand forearm once, and hot something or other bouncing off your cheek a couple of times, they do ignite the charge well, and they do not seem to cause any kind of a crud ring.

Needless to say I will be interested in shooting these off in the CVA Staghorn which has a different breech plug design. They will not ever go back into my Black Diamond XR. I guess the question is ... would I endorse them to other shooters. Only if I did not like you!

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

Thanks for the heads up cayugad. I almost bought some of these a couple of weeks ago to give them a try, but ended up getting the Remington Kleenbore primers instead. I'm glad I did. I'll give you all a report on them soon.

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

If you do not have a good source for standard 209 primers where you live pm or email me. One of the best reloading shops in the east is close to my home and I can find you projectiles and primers and such on the cheap. I hate seeing people pay 5-6 bucks for primers for crips sake. Did you see what walmart is now charging for no11 caps????????? It should be illegal!!!

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

maybe the 209 nipple was old and ready to break anyway, but the way those primers blew up was strange. It was like all the pressure from inside the breech was coming back through into the primer. I am going to try them again when I get my new 209 nipple and if it breaks that one, Winchester and I are going to have some words..

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

I am still waiting for a positive answer to whether the Winchester primers are actually a reduced charge primer like the "new" Remington Kleenbore primers. I know the old Winchester Muzzleloading primers were just the standard 209 shotgun primer repackaged for marketing.

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

MLKeith... that was all I ever shot up to now was the old W209 Primers by Winchester and they worked fine. Why I suddenly felt I needed to change, since my rifle does not get a crud ring all that bad, is beyond me...

If they did not change anything, they sure are not the same primers as what I used to shoot.

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

I never even bought the repackaged ones did they sell them for a premium as well? I usually pay less than $15 per thousand of any primer I buy. Most of the time a lot less. Mag primers sting me a bit but jsss $5-6 per pack??? For example last week I bought 1000 standard rifle primers for $10. Winchester instead of CCI but the price was right. We muzzleloaders are getting screwed.

Time to bitch a bit to Winchester and "Ream"ington.

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

They hit me $3.95 for 100 of the new fangled dangled whiz bang muzzleloading primers that shoot worse then their old fashon W209 primers in my book. Maybe the next time out to the range will be better. But I admit, many of the muzzleloading people get took to the mill when they purchase muzzleloading supplies.

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

I won't buy Powerbelts for that same reason. How dare they charge me over a buck a round for some fricken lead. Pretty soon it will cost more to shoot a m/l than a .50 BMG.

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

Hi Cayugad,

Sorry to hear of the problems with your BD XR. Which are excellent rifles by the way. I don't tthink the primer was the culprit. 209's will detonate if they are fired outside of a casing or primer cup.

Talked to a buddy of mine that only shoots the BD XR and shoots it alot as in at least 1000+ shots a year. He's gone through several 209"carriers" in his and they always fail the same as you have described with the spring steel retainer breaking and the carrier tangs expanding to where the wrench no longer fits unless you bend the tangs inward.

That 209 "carrier" for the T/C BD breech plug will not live forever. Considering the design of tangs held in tolerance by the spring wireretainer to create the carrier that has to contain the expansion forceof the 209 primer and is under heavy radial stress every time you fire.

I would guess that it simply chose then to give up the ghost and you were only a shot or two away from needing a new 209 "carrier" anyway.

How many rounds have you fired through the carrier that failed?

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

Well Tahq.. I have to agree. I was sure mad at the time. The more I thought about it, maybe the 209 nipple was due for a change. I'd hate to even guess how many roundshave went through the rifle. I also noticed before, the more I shot, the less tension on the 209 primers. In fact towards the end of the shooting session before, if you held the rifle, muzzle pointed to the sky, the 209 might fall out.

That might explain why the 209 primers were blowing up also. There was just nothing to hold them together anymore. When the new 209 nipple comes in, I will shoot them again and see if they do the same thing all over again.

I want to shoot them in the CVA. That has that solid breech plug. That little rifle might be a inexpensive rifle, but the action and such is built like a little tank. Real solid rifle..

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

This is the primer I use all the time. I tried CCI and federal but these produced the best results. That stinks about your breech plug, but like you, doesn't seem right.

How many did you fire thru your gun? Is this a new pack? Just wondering if you believe its an isolated incident.

It really does a number on my red dics for my knights.

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

I put 25 rounds through the Black Diamond yesterday. These things were blowing up all over the place with chunks landing who knows where. It could be that since the 209 nipple was old it finally gave out and that then, since there was no pressure on the primer itself, it allowed it to explode. When I shoot them in my CVA I will have a better idea.

I just ordered a new breech plug and 209 nipple for the Black Diamond XR. I figure it is a good idea to have a spare around anyway....

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

Wow,
Almost sounds like a bad batch of primers.

While I understand totally different guns are involved, I've been using them in my Encore for two years and have not had any experience such as this. Found them to be reliable.

I don't normally reload shotgun shells, but a temporary foray into 777 and shotgun shells has caused me to play around with them. Up front, I reload more handgun rounds than you can believe, but don't have experience w/ shotgun reloads or primers. I can just say that in a 12 gauge shell w/ 777 these primers work great. I know you can get them cheaper by buying standard 209 primers, but I had these already so gave them a chance.
R
Hank

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

That's what the box of them looks like when you see it in a store. On another forum someone claims they are nothing but the same Winchester W209 primers in a different box. I always shoot the W209 and never had them act like that...

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

I just can't believe they build these guns to use standard 209 primers and some how we have to buy special ones for m/l. Get this also, does Winchester actually make a m/l? Does Remington still make one? What the heck do they know about these things that we don't?

Sorry I have shot standard 209 primers for over 5 years with no peoblems and will continue to do so unless T/C come out with some note telling me to do elsewise.

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

I just opened the new box I bought today and compared to the old boxI've got, they look "cheap"! The quality of these things look like they were made Friday at 4:45! If it wasnt so late I'd run outside right now and pop a few off just to see the results

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

Just ordered a new box of primers myself.... Federal 209's....1000ct =26$..

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

$26 a box is kinda steep do you like these primers a lot? Or is it you are paying the hazard shipping thing? I can buy the federal's for about $20 a box but thought the price was a bit high. The W209's shoot fine do you like those better?

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

Pitts,

I believe you may be mistaken. If not where are you getting them for 20$ a box?

I would be extremely surprised ifyour local dealers regular price was lower than a national online retailer like Midsouth. That just doesn't make logical business sense to me.
Federal 209a primers....
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=00129209A

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

I buy them from a shop that has literally tons of reloading supplies. do you think shot.gun reloaders pay a bunch for primers?

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

You can buy shot shells at Walmart for less than they sell the damn primers!!!

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

Pitts,

So if you are certain you are talking about the same primers and they cost lessthan 20$........Can you give me the adress or phone number...thx

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

Just to be fair to the Winchester people, I tried these primers in a CVA Staghorn Magnum today. Since the CVA breech is a solid one piece design I figured that this would be a good test for them.
Twice I have the centers blow out of the primer and then not seeing that ended up with a misfire on the next shot. After checking and finding that small piece in the breech striker area and removing it, the rifle fired fine. Also I noticed that the center part of the primer would blow backward and hang out the rim of the primer, sometimes coming out, sometimes not. So over all I am guessing that the old 209 Nipple in my Black Diamond might have been partially to blame for some of the problems on the other encounter, although these are not low power.
I only shot 25 times and the rifle and RED DOT were covering in fowling.... Such is the life of a muzzleloader.

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

Your findings are correct! And I also dont think your Black Diamond nipplewas to blame. I was out shooting my BD for the first timeand had the same thing happen. I will not shoot these primers again! I went through 1 1/2 packs of the old Win. primers and never had this happen

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

Thanks for the heads up. I just bought a new breech plug and breech plug nipple so I do not think I will risk the new stuff with the NEW Winchester Primers. I will shoot some of the Remington Kleenbore Primers and see how they work.

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

PR's variflame primer cups have worked great for me , they hold a small rifle primer .

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

The other day I shot some of the Kleenbore primers made for Muzzleloaders by Remington. I have to admit, they worked fine. They did not blow the discs in my Knight apart, and the accuracy of the rifle was normal. I want to get them out and try them in a few more rifles before I really claim they are worth the money...

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

cayugad,

Just sharing some information, I have been using Rem 209-4's for several years and have found them to be totally reliable. Haven't experianced the blowing-up that you indicated with the Winchesters. Have not experianced the nipple problems in either the A&H or either one of the Remington 700's - using the Canadian (Cabela's) conversion. Think you will like the Rems... Good Luck

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

They sure behaved a lot better then the Winchester I bought. I think the discs that I used the Kleenbore in will be able to be reused, which is a real bonus... I only shot off about 35 of them so I have a little more to play with.

RE: Winchester WML209 Primers
 

I have some of the Winchester 209's but having such good results with the Remington 209 ML's I've been using them with my 777 pellets.....

Wml209
 

The WML209 was designed for use manly in the Savage muzzleloader shooting smokeless powder. Winchester does however make a Winchester 209 TripleSeven primer for use using black powder or substitutes. The WML209 is hotter for igniting the smokeless powder and should be used in guns designed for smokeless powder only.

Don't think so.

Winchester Technical Dept. says this:


Thank you very much for taking the time to contact us here at Winchester Ammunition. We are always glad to hear from our many friends and customers who share in the shooting sport.

The WML209 and the W209 primers are the same. Winchester offers the convenience to the muzzleloader shooter to purchase their primers in the 100 count sealed pack.

Thank you again for contacting us here at Winchester Ammunition. If you should require additional information, do not hesitate to contact us.

Sincerely,
Winchester Technical Department

Dave, Thanks for posting the information. I had not noticed this post before.
Lane, now I am really confused. The W209s have been availiable in 100 packs around here as long as I have been using them. I don't understand a different part # if they are the same.
Art

Not to worry Art, the standard W209 is fine. This was just a ploy to get muzzy shooters ta pay $4.00 for 100 primers:rolleye0011::s12::busted:

You probably can't even find these on the market anymore:p
Dave posted this report way back on 08-23-2005

Now I know why I hadn't noticed the post. I saw that it was August but I hadn't noticed that it was over 4 years old. Too funny.
Art