Black Diamond Express VS Pursuit LT
 

Hi All, new member here hoping to get a little advice. I am looking to buy a new muzzleloader. Our season here in South AR has been cut to just a few days so can't see investing big bucks in a fancy rifle. I am looking at the Traditions Pursuit LT or the Black Diamond express. I have read about the spanish barrels in the Pursuit LT and the trigger issues. However I really like the way this gun feels and also like the breakover stylefor ease of cleaning. I can get the Pursuit for about $225/ camo and the express kit for about $250. Any suggestions pro/con on either of these rifles? Thanks and look forward to your opinions.

GHog

RE: Black Diamond Express VS Pursuit LT
 

The Black Diamond Express? Do you by chance mean the Thompson Center Black Diamond XR or is it the standard Black Diamond with the 22" barrel? I have not heard of a Black Diamond Express. As for the Pursuit LT, they are I am sure a good rifle. I would rather have a Pursuit Pro but the LT would probably do all right.

If you're looking for a break open design and want to save money at the same time, you want American Steel Barrels, and American break open actiontechnology, then look at a NEF Sidekick. I think they sell for around $159.00 at Cabela's on line. They are break open. The parent company is H&R which has been making break open rifles for many years. Also their out of the box accuracy is exceptional from all reports. Their one draw back is their ramrod. So purchase a range rod and keep the one with the rifle for hunting only. Other then that they are said to be excellent shooting rifles.

That would be the direction I would go if I wanted a quality rifle and did not want to invest a lot of money into the sport.

RE: Black Diamond Express VS Pursuit LT
 

cayugad, well after posting this I can't find any info in a BD express. What I was looking at was a Wal-Mart It had Black Diamond and then had the word express.by it. I assume now that it is just a BD. It was one of those package guns that had the gun some cleaner a few bullets and cleaning pads etc. It sold for around $249.00 By bad on getting the names confused. Also thanks for the other info!!

GHog

RE: Black Diamond Express VS Pursuit LT
 

That's whatI figured, it was a Thompson Center Black Diamond with the 22" barrel and the black laminate stock. They are a nice rifle. I have a Black Diamond XR which is the same rifle with a longer barrel. Great shooting rifles without a doubt. They are able to use the 209, musket cap or #11 ignition system. They barrel is free floating for improved accuracy, and the side safety is well located and easy to use.

Some of the draw backs of the rifle are, they do fowl bad. Since it is a spring striker bar ignition, that area will get full of fowling. If you scope it, the bottom of the scope will also get full of fowling. Most of this is blow back from the 209 ignition. It also wipe right back off with a solvent patch so it is not a big deal.

The rifle is not as easy to clean as the break open type I am guessing, but if it takes me 10 even 20 minutes longer to clean my rifle I do not see that as a big deal. This is when I usually reflect on my days shooting, wonder what I could do better, or marvel at how well I did. I have a cup of coffee, turn on the radio and clean my rifle.

I would bet that the Black Diamond 22" barrel is a great shooter like my XR model. They will shoot sabots excellent and concial bullets as well with extreme accuracy. If the fact that they take longer to clean is not important, then you are getting an excellent rifle there.

Some of the things I do to keep the rifle shooting well is I check the breech plug ever 10 shots to make sure it is not seizing, and when I swab... every so often I take a Q-tip and clean out the striker area of the rifle.

It is a great rifle and has a great warranty. With the short barrel it would make an excellent brush rifle. It also comes with some very impressive fiber optic sights....

RE: Black Diamond Express VS Pursuit LT
 

GHog - I have two stainless T/C Black Diamonds - a 26" XR and a 22" standard. Despite some of the drawbacks Cayugad pointed out, these are great guns and shoot really well. There is no crud ring like the Omega, and these guns arelight weight with very comfortable stocks. They also shoot every bit as well as my Omega or Knight Disc rifle. I replaced thered fiber optic rod on the front sight with a green one; and replaced the open rear sight with a Williams peep sight. My only reservation with the Black Diamond would be hunting in very wet weather, which so far I have avoided during the September elk seasons. Good luck. Roscoe

RE: Black Diamond Express VS Pursuit LT
 

To give you an idea of the Black Diamond XR and what it can do, I was playing with loads yesterday. I was shooting 110 grains of Swiss 3f Black Powder and a 375 grain pure lead Buffalo Bullet SSB off the bench rest. Needless to say, I think that load has all the power anyone would need to shoot anything in North America. It really snorted.

I then tried some of the 240 grain T/C Mag Express XTP's with 110 grains of Triple Se7en FFg. I usually shoot them with 100 grains of Goex 2f. I was surprised at how much higher they hit on the target then with the Goex 2f. Also I think the strong wind gust were playing tricks on them more then I thought.

So we loaded some of the 375 grain SSB with 110 grains of Triple Se7en FFg. I know for a fact that this is an elk load. A poster last year showed me proof postitive of them being an elk load out of his Black Diamond XR. I was impressed with the accuracy. Also it should be noted that the Black Diamond XR I shoot has a inexpensive 1.5-4.5 x32mm Bushnell Banner Dusk to Dawn Scope on it with simple weaver mounts. An animal out at 100 yards is going to be for a rather bad day should they cross my path. Although the wind was real strong and gusting. That was one reason I wanted to shoot in it.

I then broke out a flintlock and was shooting roundball at that distance with open sights. Now that was real fun...

RE: Black Diamond Express VS Pursuit LT
 

Take a look at the Pursuit Pro (not the LT version). I've been hearing very good things about this rifle. The Pursuit Pro balance is excellent.

Ifwanting tochoose the Pursuit Pro and the T/C Black Diamond, I would have to seriously conisder the Pursuit Pro. Not taking anything away from the T/C of which I am a fan, but he Pursuit Pro really looks and balances much better.

RE: Black Diamond Express VS Pursuit LT
 

Tahquamenon - I think I recall in one of your earlier posts somewhere, that you said the Pursuit LT was a bit too light for your liking. Is this the only reason you would not recommend it, or is there more you may have heard about?
P.S. I am a LT owner - just getting my feet wet but the gun seems very nice.

RE: Black Diamond Express VS Pursuit LT
 

Correct on the lighter LT version. I've not heard anything about the LT version only the Pro. For me the LT seemed a bit lightweight, but that's me. I also understand that the LT was not designed for heavier loads.

Please post your feedback with the Pursuit LT.

;)

RE: Black Diamond Express VS Pursuit LT
 

My friends Tradition's Pursuit Pro was very well balanced even with the scope, and the trigger I found actually very good. So the trigger problem was fixed. They are a nice handling rifle.

RE: Black Diamond Express VS Pursuit LT
 

Thanks guys for the replys, Both guns sound really nice. I have heard so many good things about T/C and the warranty. They say they stand behind their guns really well. Have not heard anyone speak on Traditions and their warranty.

Tahquamenon, your not the first to mention that I need to chack out the pursut pro. Others seem to really like this gun also.

So many guns so little time before season begins:D

GHog

RE: Black Diamond Express VS Pursuit LT
 

I bought one of those BD packages from Walmart for $170. Before I got a chance to shoot it my neighbor talked me out of it, and I bought the same gun with the longer barrel. They both shoot great, we'll be hunting with them in a few weeks.

RE: Black Diamond Express VS Pursuit LT
 

If you decide to go with the Black Diamond, and you plan on putting a scope on it, then I would also HIGHLY recomend that you consider purchasing the Leupold Quick Release Bases and Rings. These things works extremely well. It allows you to take the scope off for cleaning and special state seasons without losing zero.

RE: Black Diamond Express VS Pursuit LT...UPDATE..GOT A GUN
 

Well, guys I want to thank all of you that responded to this thread. I went to WalMart this evening about to just go ahead and get the Pursuit LT as most of the other guns were out of my price range right now. I was kidding the sales lady about selling me an Omega for less money, she wouldn't do it. I asked her were these guns last years model. She said no they are 2005 models but she had a few 2004 model guns stuck back ready to send off that she could make me a deal on.

Well she went to the back of the store and pulled outa Black Diamond XR, blued barrellw/hardwood camo stock. It had a sticker of $289.74 on it. We talked for a few minutes as I looked over the gun. She finally sold me the gun for $170.00 (please nobody tell me I got ripped off)

I am tickled to death. I think this gun should last me a long time.

Now, I purchased some cleaning supplies, a couple packages of Triple 7 50 grain pellets. I also picked up some 250 grain shockwave sabots. Is this a good combination? I know some of you say 130grains of power etc. Does the pellets come in a 30grain load or do you have to shoot loose power to get this load. Any advice on what setups work well with gun will be appreciated. I will only be hunting whitetail and from most of my stands do not have a shot over 150 yds.

You guys have been great and sorry to be so long winded....Just a little excited to be owning my first muzzleloader..

GHog

EDIT...gahunter19. Who sells those Leupold Quick Release Bases and Rings. They sound nice.

RE: Black Diamond Express VS Pursuit LT...UPDATE..GOT A GUN
 

$170.00 bucks for a Black Diamond XR is a STEAL !!! WHAT A DEAL !! on most of the auction sites used ones are going for more then that and you got a brand new Jim Dandy Bing whistle Black Diamond XR for that price... you done real good !!

Before the Omega's hit the scene, this and the Knight Bighorns and Wolverines were the guns to own. Now they consider them as an off line of rifle. Off line my you know what! Well they might take longer to clean then an Omega or a Revolution but they will stand toe to toe on the rifle range with them any day. This is all the muzzleloader you will ever need to own. The only reason I own more then my Black Diamond XR is because I collect guns. Not that any of them can do anything the Black Diamond can't. Just I get urges for guns and buy. Impulse buying I believe it is called.

Start your rifle out with two of the 50 grain pellets and a 250 grain Shockwave. I think you will be more then pleased with the accuracy. You can try three pellets if you like. I personally think pellets are real nice..just too expensive and not for me. And yes they do sell 30 grain pellets. I personally shoot 120 grains of loose Triple Se7en FFg and the accuracy is outstanding.

Some little hints so you do not run into the same trouble I did the first time I shot my Black Diamond XR. Make sure you read your manual cover to cover. Once you're sure you know all the information in the book, read it again. Now make sure the rifle is really clean. Be sure and use a good quality breech plug grease on the breech plug or else, shooting Triple Se7en will seize that plug up fast! Every 7 to 10 shots take that handy dandy breech plug wrench that came with the rifle and reach over the 209 nipple and give that breech plug a little twist back and fourth. This is making sure the thing is not seizing.

Take plenty of patches and swabbing solution with you to the range. Also take some Q-tips. You can dunk them in swab solution and clean the inside of the 209 nipple out when it gets fowled and you can clean the breech of the rifle out easy once you get a scope on it.

Swab the barrel and run a dry patch down to the bottom of the breech. Now, before you load the first time, pop 2 of the 209 primers through the empty rifle. This will clean out the breech plug and dry all the stuff down there. When you pull that patch back up you can check and see how much fire is coming through the breech. That patch should be very burnt and sometimes even blown apart.

Now that your ready to load just drop two of the pellets down there and seat a Shockwave on top of them. Be careful not to crush the pellets. My understanding is that can lead to some real accuracy problems. With the ramrod on top of the load, take some masking tape and wrap it level to the muzzle of the barrel around the ramrod. That is your witness mark. If you load and do not have that tape level to the top of the muzzle or very close, do not shoot the rifle. It probably need the barrel swabbed better. Be sure and swab between shots when working up a load.

If after your done shooting (and you better have been checking that breech plug) and you'rea long way from home, take the striker, spring, end of the spring, cap, nipple and breech plug out of the rifle and put that in a plastic zip lock bag so nothing gets lost. This way nothing will set up. I have also swabbed the loose fowling out of the barrel at this point only so it does not have time to harden on.

A better breech plug wrench is a narrow 7/16 th socket on a 8" extension with a ratchet. It will take the breech plug and nipple out of the rifle real fast. Just hold back on the trigger as you push any breech plug wrench or socket through. Sometimes it will grab the wrench and not let it slide through. Same goes for after you have cleaned the rifle and are putting the striker back in. Hold back on the trigger. Also when you take the double locking lug bolts out of the bottom of the stock, there are two small washers buried up in that stock that will fall out if you do not be careful. Don't loose them. I take them out with the bolts. That is what helps the barrel free float. Also when you shoot off a bench rest, never rest the barrel of the rifle on anything. Only the stock should be supported the barrel just kind of floats out there on its own.

You have a great rifle.. Good luck. If it is anything like mine, it is a great shooter....

RE: Black Diamond Express VS Pursuit LT...UPDATE..GOT A GUN
 

Thanks cayugad, That is real good information you have provided. I have run into one minor detail I over looked at the store.

THERE IS NO MANUAL IN THE BOX!!!!!!!

I went to T/C's website thinking I could download a PDF version of it as I was wanting to shoot some tomorrow. But they offer nothing more than a email address to request one. I may go back to WalMart and ask her to look in the box for the other gun and see if has a manual in it. They still have one more BD XR in the back so maybe it has a manual. Otherwise I guess I gotta wait for T/C to mail me one.

GHog

RE: Black Diamond Express VS Pursuit LT...UPDATE..GOT A GUN
 

Thompson Center's Black Diamond XR has its own owner's manual. You would have to get them to look in the box of the other one to see if they could find one for you.

RE: Black Diamond Express VS Pursuit LT...UPDATE..GOT A GUN
 

Cayugad - those pesky little washers that are buried up in the Black Diamond stock (that always fall out when you take the guard screws out) . . . . glue them into the stock with JB weld. Put a little bit between the washer and the stock, and then put the screws in - with a good coating of Break Free (or Acraweld release agent) on it in case a little glue gets on the screw. Tighten and let dry.

Also, the front sling stud has pulled out on two Black Diamonds I know of - it is a "wood screw" type stud. Replace it with one that has 10 X 32 threads and a nut on the inside of barrel channel. Mine pulled out while hunting - the front sight hit the ground and broke the fiber optic rod.

One other little pearl . . . . be VERY careful about lowering the striker on a primed charge. If you go a little too fast or the little handle slips at all, even in the last 1/8" of its travel forward, it will discharge. I also imagine it would discharge quite easily if you were carrying it with the striker down on a primer, and the striker handle got bumped even a little. I've been trying to figure out a way to put a 1/2 cock function into this mechanism, but so far no luck.Not sure what the manual says, but Idon't recommend lowering the striker once the gun is primed.

Otherwise, these are great guns and, as you know, are as accurate as any MZ rifle out there.