ballistic information wanted
 

I have heard that inline rifles can match and even excel a center fire. I am sure there might be loads that can do that but I have no chronograph and am ballistic illiterate in that department. What kind of load do I have to push out of a .50 caliber and what kind of center fire do I have more whoop then.?

I know a lot of you out there are into numbers so I was hoping you could help me out. Also, after this data is given, let me know how many of you match a load like that when you shoot...

thanks.

RE: ballistic information wanted
 

Basically, using black powder or one of the substitutes, what you have heard is a crock! There is no inline (that does not use smokeless powder) that can give you any more power or accuracy than you can get from a sidelock of th Hawken type, and NONE of them will ever equal a .30/'06, a .270, or even a hot .45/70 load in a Ruger No1 or No. 3!! It just can't be done. And there is only one ML on the market today that can safely use smokeless powder. It is made by Savage, and even it will not equal a modern HP cartridge rifle!

There are just too many wild claims being made these days by a lot of people who should know better, so be very careful hat you choose to believe!!

RE: ballistic information wanted
 

I could not agree more. It was mentioned that a modern inline rifle will equal that of some centerfires. A 45-70 Government was mentioned. Now when I was younger, I had a chance to shoot an old bolt action 45-70 Gov and I remember the recoil and the down range energy from that rifle. So when I was told that an inline could duplicate those results, I was interested in trying to learn what load and powder charge would have to be used to make such a shot.

The 45-70 normally shoots a 405 grain FP projectile in around .458 diameter. I've found three different speeds for this cartridge. They ranged from 1300 fps to almost 2000 fps. Well I do cast a 405 grain pure lead FP .457 diameter bullet and shoot them out of a red Knight sabot. I was trying to see how much powder I would have to put under that thing to make some of these velocities. I have a feeling it would be more then I normally shoot, which is 100 grains of Goex 2f.

I do thank you for your reply... :D

RE: ballistic information wanted
 

Cayugad - some of the magnum loads, using three 50 grain Pyrodex Pellets and a sabot bullet, can come very close to the horsepower ofthe stiffest .45-70 load. In my Marlin 1895, I can safely get a 300 grain Barnes X going almost 2,000 fps (actual chronographed velocity). Out of my 26" T/C Black Diamond, I can get the 300 grain Expander MZ up to 1944 with three 50 grain pellets. Pretty darn close . . . .

RE: ballistic information wanted
 

Well then it is true that some of the modern muzzleloaders can get to some center fire standards. Of course I am not sure I want to shoot 150 grain loads.....

RE: ballistic information wanted
 

cayugad,

I think you have seen this before, but one day I was out with my A&H not really trying to set any velocity records, just checking a hunting load. I was shooting .458 (45-70's) 350 grain Hornady Round Nose bullets.

I, at the time, was thrilled with the velocity across the chrono.Especially with a 350 grain round nose. I have settled back a notch to a 300 grain Nosler Partition .458 bullet as my my Elk load. It is a little more efficient and quicker.

Any way here is the target and velocities - I appologize for for using blue ink on a blue target.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/sabotloader/458.jpg

RE: ballistic information wanted
 

that is a real respectable load sabotloader. 1600+ fps for a 350 grain projectile. Having nothing more to base this on then a guess, I would put my 405 grains with 100 grains of Goex 2f somewhere in the mid to high 1400's since the powder charge is not as hot and the bullet is a little heavier. Again, a real respectable charge. I bet the elk do not care for them at all.

I have been shooting the homecasted 405 grains at100 yards and they have been behaving real good. The only thing I can figure the occasional flyer is from my casting. I cast them out of pure lead. A friend tends to think they are heavier then 405 because we did a homemade balance beem type test with a factory Remington 405 FP and the home cast were heavier.

RE: ballistic information wanted
 

I have a load for my Ruger No. 1 .45/70 that uses the Barnes Original 400-grain semispitzer (B.C. .389) at an instrumentalvelocity at 10 feet of 2270 FPS. This load shoots flatter than a .30/30 with the 170-grain bullet, produces a muzzle energy of 4580 foot pounds, and gives 57 ft/lb of recoil. Energy at 300 yards for this load is still 2550 foot/pounds! It drops only 7" at 300 yards, when zeroed at 250! I know of no inline ML that will do this well. Some get some pretty impressive MV's, but to do so they invariably use sabots holding very light-for-caliber bullets. These all lose velocity very fast, so the range on these loads is more limited than if you used heavier full-diameter conicals with a lower MV.

RE: ballistic information wanted
 

Well, I don't shoot a modern inline, but I do have a sidelock. I get about 1200 FPS with my load of 80 grains of Goex 2f and a 370 grain T/C Maxi-Ball. Going off of other loads I have chronographed, 100 grains (max powder charge I can use) will only give me in the neighborhood of 1300-1320 FPS. I doubt even with a modern inline I could come close to matching the power of a modern C/F. I am sure that the ML's pack the punch of the smaller ones, as far as kinetic energy, but only for a short time. I am thinking like the .243, 257 Roberts, 6.5 X 55 and similar. Even these cartridges would probably actually surpass an inline ML after the 100 yard mark.

RE: ballistic information wanted
 

This is my reason for the search. It was mentioned on a different forum that modern inline centerfires can equal that of a center fire rifle. A 45-70 Government was actually used in this comparison. I felt this might be a boast but felt before I replied to this claim, that I should have information backing up my statement no matter which way the findings show..

RE: ballistic information wanted
 

IF one were to compare a .45/70 firing a 405-grain bullet at around 1300 FPS, or shopoting a 500-grain bullet in the vicinity of 1200 FPS, (the original ballistics of .45/70 ammo using black powder, and to which current ammo is loaded using smokeless powder and intended for trapdoor SApringfields and the like), then yes, a modern-steel muzzleloader can equal or exceed this performance level. However, a sidelock made of modern barrel steel can do just as well as an inline in this respect!

This 370-grain Maxiball load is going 1742 FPS at 10' from the muzzle. This equates to an energy level at 10' of 2493 foot-pounds - over 2500 at the muzzle! But with its poor ballistic coefficient, this load will run out of steam long before a modern centerfirerifle bullet that starts out with the same energy!!

RE: ballistic information wanted
 

I always get the "an inline is cheating, you might as well use a high powered rifle, it's the same thing" argument from people. Well I have owned high powered rifles and I'm here to tell you it's no where close! Can it equal that of some centerfire cartridges, probably depending on what they are and how you load the ML. I bet it will not be as accurat though. Just because you can shoot 150 grns of powder out of your ML doesn't mean you should. Most are not that accurate with that much powder unless you are using a pretty heavy bullet. They are better than most shotgun slug offerings, although they are getting much better. That is why they are so popular where I live. They shoot better than an average slug gun. Where I live you can either use a shotgun or ML, no centerfires. And for quite a while the Inlines offered a better trajectory than the shotguns. You just don't get an easy follow up shot. Of course if you do it right you shouldn't need one.

I shoot a remington 700 ML with a synthetic stock and variable scope. It looks like a 50 cal snyper rifle, especially with the bipod on it. Some shotgun hunters feel an inferiority complex when they see it and traditional blackpowder shooters spit on the ground when you walk by. Sort of like using a crossbow in archery season. Basically it's just a high tech looking Muzzle loader though. You can do the same to most side locks if you buy a green mountain barrel or something. Mine is just easier to clean is all. Some of the shotgun guys feel I must have a better weapon since they empty a magazine at a deer and it runs a way. I take one shot and go get my deer. It can't be that I spent more time learning how my weapon works and what it likes, or that I take my time and wait for the right shot. And there is no way I might actually be a better shot. That is just not possible is it? It must be that the inline ML is a far superior killing machine and magically drops deer when you point it at them. Much like the rep a crossbow has in many ways, although the crossbow does offer the advantage of not haveing to draw on the deer. The inline offers no such advantage over a shotgun, if anything it has dissadvantages.

Even if the ballistics are comparable, they are still not the same thing. A center fire is most likely going to shoot more reliable and have a better designed bullet. For muzzle loading we are basically using pistol bullets, and shooting them over thier intended speed, possibly hurting the performance of the bullet. Of course now we have the PR bullets that are designed for inlines and I would think perform better. But they are still not the same thing as a well designed centerfire bullet.

And then you have the weight, the ease of loading and cleaning. Not to mention you can actually see what you shot at after the shot. Shooting a muzzle loader is like doing a magic act. Sometimes you have to wait for the smoke to clear to see what happened. And you pray the deer didn't do a hudinni on you while you couldn't see. And you better be on the mark the first time, because I doubt you will get a second shot with a muzzle loader.

And this is comparing it to some big slow centerfire that really doesn't get used much any more. If you are trying to compare one to a 30-06 or something you are nuts, there is no coparison at all. Heck a .243 is superior to a modern inline.

In my opinion most that make these claims are ignorant and have not used both weapons they are comparing.

Just my opinion any way.

Paul