Powders and what they mean to me.
 

We constantly hear people question powders. They want to know the good and bad points of different brands. Much of what we as forum members can offer them is based upon personal experience and of course personal preference. Here are some of my thoughts on the powders. And I would like for you to add any comment of the different powders you have. Maybe we can get a real comprehensive idea of just what each powder can do and can accomplish.

This might sound simplistic and for that I apologize. I am not someone that gets excited because one powder can push the same projectile 200 fps faster or less. I worry more about accuracy. I also am not one that gets all excited about how CLEAN a powder is. So I will break it down this way.

Pyrodex RS or P - in loose or pellet form. Excellent shot to shot consistency. Very accurate when the right load is found. Some of my best groups were shot with Pyrodex RS loose and pellet form powder. Produces soft fouling which is easy to remove by swabbing. Not the easiest powder to ignite, that being black powder, but not too far off. Unlike some of the other subs that can get a little finicky in the ignition area, Pyrodex is comparatively easy to ignite. Normally priced in a range that makes it easy to afford, it is a common powder so can be had just about anywhere. The bad points... not the fastest powder on the market (doesn't impress me on that point as I noted). Very corrosive when compared to the other powders - while this is true, that if you leave a rifle fouled with Pyrodex it will produce rust faster than almost any other powder.. I don't leave my guns dirty. I clean them at the end of the day. Also Pyrodex can be cleaned with simple soap and water. Water actually if you want. So this to me is a mute point. I rate this an excellent powder. Where I live it sells for $18.00 a pound when not on sale.

Triple Seven Powder in both loose and pellet form in 2f & 3f - Triple Seven is a popular powder with a lot of shooters because of the excellent power spike it produces. For instance, when I shoot conical bullets I like to shoot Triple Seven powder to get them moving and expanding in the bore to catch the rifling. With sabots it is normally an excellent powder. In comparing equal amounts of Pyrodex VS Triple Seven LOOSE powder you find that the Triple Seven is approximately 15% stronger or more powerful if you will. This is not true in pellet form as the weight of the Triple Seven pellet was reduced so it matches the power of the Pyrodex RS pellet. This powder is a little harder to ignite then say Pyrodex RS or black powder, but nothing to get overly concerned about. It seems to withstand moisture in hunting situations well, if the rifle is addressed to the conditions you face. Triple Seven is easy to clean. Simple water will clean it. I like to use Windex when I clean it. The draw backs are; it’s a little more expensive then other powders... $24.00 a pound where I live, it is not as common as some other powders. But availability is changing and I see more and more of it in the 2f variety in stores.

The other draw back is when fired in some rifles it can cause a very hard fouling, commonly called a crud ring. The "crud ring" is a collection of unburned powder and carbon that forms near the breech of the rifle. Normally a careful swabbing of the bore between shots will remove it. Some people do claim they have to use a bore brush to work the crud ring out of the bore. I have never experienced that extreme and have shot Triple Seven in over 40 different rifles. It does clean up well through. As I mentioned this seems to be a very good powder for hunting. And it too is very consistent although some ignition problems because of the crud ring force people to use a weaker primer. For instance the Remington Kleenbore Primers or Winchester Triple Seven primers are a reduced charge primer made to lower the flash in the ignition chamber and thereby reduce or eliminate the crud ring. This powder is not as corrosive as many of the other powders. Therefore you can shoot a rifle and leave it fouled or loaded for longer periods of time they claim. You can do it with your rifle, but not with mine.

American Pioneer and Jim Shockey Gold powder in 2f and 3f in loose and stick form - This is a sugar based powder. It is not as consistent as come of the other powders I shoot. Although when you do find a load with it and stick to that you normally have excellent consistency and accuracy. Being a sugar based powder there is no swabbing between shots required they claim. That is not exactly true. Having shot (and still shoot) many pounds of it have proven otherwise to me. You will see a white or gray area start to develop near the muzzle of the rifle. This can make starting a sabot difficult, but a simple swab worked down about 10 inches into the bore from time to time takes care of this. Cleaning is again, done with water. This is not a particularly corrosive powder although if the rifle is left fouled, it will eventually cause rusting in the bore. Face it, any powder left untreated will eventually cause rusting in the bore. I am currently paying $24.00 a pound for this whether 2f or 3f. I like the 3f as it shoots well in revolvers, and the 2f is such a coarse powder, like fish tank gravel, that it will not pour evenly out of some of the funnel measures we use. You must use an open end measure when using this powder because of that. I do not like this powder for hunting. It reacts to moisture as many claim, which is never a good thing to have happen. But my reason for disliking this powder is the lack of shot to shot consistency. Although it does shoot roundball well for me. And it is one of the better powders to shoot in cap and ball revolvers and clean up is easy, and you can shoot all day without breaking the weapon down for a field clean.

BlackHorn 209 - A relatively new sub powder to the market. It is actually from what I understand a smokeless powder base with some additives to make it legal and to slow down barrel pressures for the muzzleloader market. Made by Western Powder, BlackHorn 209 is taking the inline market by storm it seems. All you read is the praises of this powder for its power, consistency, and no swabbing. You do not clean this powder with any water products; this powder requires a solvent to clean properly. BH209 is a powerful powder. One of the most powerful, so please consider this in developing your load. This powder is made for rifles in excellent condition. Also the shot to shot consistency of the powder is exceptional. The price can vary. I have seen it sell for $27.00 for 10 ounces (that right) all the way up to $37.00 for the same jug. Consider the price differential when you purchase this powder. Also consider that this powder, due to ignition properties, can cause a lot of headaches.

This powder is not meant for open breech muzzleloaders like a T/C Black Diamond, or Knight Wolverine, Bighorn, or some of the older technology open breech or hammer breech rifles. This powder demands a good locking action like the Knight Disc, Knight Mountaineer, T/C Omega, T/C Triumph, CVA Optima or CVA Accura - all good examples of rifles that do well with BlackHorn 209. Aside from the type and make of the ignition to consider, also pay attention to the primer you are shooting. This powder demands a hot primer. The CCI 209A, Remington STS, Federal 209a, or Winchester W209 are examples of primers that work well. Reduced power primers such as the Remington Kleenbore or Winchester Triple Seven primers are not a good choice for this powder. It is hard to ignite, so the hotter the primer the better. Also understand that some breech plugs work better with this powder then others. If you try BlackHorn and have ignition problems, the breech plug could well be the culprit. Also the fire channel can and probably will become caked with carbon deposits. So before you throw that breech plug that does not work away, get some drill bits and push them into the fire channel and turn them. The bits will scrape the carbon out of the plug and make it work again. Some people claim they have to use a drill bit on the breech plug after 5 shots. When I tested it, I got 4 shots before the bit was required. Each rifle/plug combo may be different but all plugs require this cleaning. When you clean it, use solvent. And make sure the breech plug is clean and oil free when using BH209 for best results. This is good powder if you have plenty in your wallet as well as the rifle, breech plug and primers to shoot it. I personally have been testing it and am not convinced it’s the best darn powder in the world...

Goex, Swiss, Graf's. Schuetzen, and other black powders - Black powder is the easiest of all powders to ignite. One reason it is considered dangerous. I personally like the powder. Cost effective wise, it is one of the cheapest powders to shoot. Consistency wise, it is one of the most consistent powders to shoot. Shot to shot, once you find your load, you are set to go. One major complaint of the powder is fouling. Yes it fouls – so what? I swab the bore and get on with it. The fouling is soft and cleans with water. I do not find this powder any harder to clean than all the other powders. And yes this is corrosive, but I clean my rifle at the end of the day and all is well in the world. When a rifle will not behave with other powders, I turn to black powder and it seems to make them behave. This powder is not easy to find because of the HAZMAT status it carries, which is a shame. If you see this powder in 2 or 3f pick a pound up and give it a try. This is a great but misunderstood powder IMO.

Black Mag, White Hots, Pinnacle, and other powders.. all of these powders are hard to find. They are easy to clean. They are IMO not as consistent shot to shot as other powders but those that use them ... like them. I do like Pinnacle. It is a good strong powder and easy to shoot and clean. The costs of these powders vary. I have not tested any of them, other then Pinnacle, enough to give opinions on. But they are fun to try.

That is about all I have to add... I would also like to thank Underclocked for some excellent editing tips. I really want this post to be a good and informative topic and I appreciate all the input and comments.

Great write up. One question; I thought Goex Pinacle was no longer made?

GOOD Post Dave! Very Informative and useful.
(BP)

A well written and informative post that will help people decide which powder to use. Thank you.

Yes, good post Dave. Very informative. This read should help a lot of people understand the differences in these powders.

This also reminds me of something I was wanting to ask you. Have you done any more range testing of Blackhorn 209 and the T/C Black Diamond? I am curious of your final analysis of this test, since the open-breech design of the Black Diamond and the Blackhorn 209 are not supposed to be very compatible.

Good post Dave.
I would like to add some thing that may not be commonly known.
Blackhorn and 777 produce almost identical velocity up to 120 grains Volume with bullets below 250 grains, Blackhorn does produce a bit more with heavier bullets,
the big difference other than crud ring is in pressure with the same volume load Blackhorn produces 15% less pressure it gets the same velocity by producing that peak pressure for a longer period of time. 777 produces the recommended limit with 120 grains and I have read of people loading quite a bit more than that this should stop before there is a bad accident.

I refuse to shoot BlackHorn 209 in my Black Diamond XR. After digging out a chunk of 209 primer from my forehead the last time, you might say.. I learn quick. Now I am fully aware that some open breech shooters use BlackHorn 209 and report no problems. But there is that chance, that one of these times, a primer will blow out. And come back, as it did myself, into the face of the shooter. Let's hope it never happens. And if it does, no serious physical harm is done.

Excellent information Lee.. thanks for that information.

Great Post Dave, it should be another one added to the Help Forum.
I shoot a lot of "real" black powder. I use to have two local sources but now Cabela's quit handling it. The clerk told me that it was almost impossible to clean. I said that while it got things dirty I found the fouling to be soft and cleaned up easily with soap and water. He said he had never heard of anything like that before!!! I didn't pursue the discussion any further. I wish they would require the clerks at these stores to at least learn the basics from a forum like this before spreading their drivel to the general public.

I agree with you. When I shoot black powder a trick I do..

On the range before breaking the rifle down, open the hammer, flintlock, or inline breech. Then I spray a LARGE amount of Simple Green into the muzzle of the barrel. I let this flow down through and out the breech plug, nipple, flash hole... I do this to start the cleaning process, but also to keep that fouling soft. Then I saturate a patch and swab the bore a couple times.

Then when I get inside the house, cup of coffee all ready, and sit down at the bench to clean the rifle... it will shock you how fast that rifle cleans up.

Some of these clerks in stores, I swear have never fired a rifle. And the information they pass on to some of the customers is down right foolish and could cause a lot of problems. My theory always had been if you do not know the answers, keep your mouth shut and your ears open. Maybe you can learn something.

Good post Dave, great info.

That is an excellent article you posted cayugad. It is detailed and very informative. There are many newcomers to the sport of muzzleloading it can be confusing with the variety of powders and components available today. When I started in 1970 it was black powder or nothing.

Today 99% of my shooting is with flintlock rifles so I use GOEX 3-f in all of them and prime with GOEX 4-f or Swiss Null-B. When I shoot percussion It is with my 1858 Remington and I like Triple & 3-f because it burns so clean and doesn't gunk up the pistol after repetitive loading and shooting. And as you pointed out is easy to clean.

Very informative Dave!! I do keep some Pyro RS & P as well as Triple 7 3f around because I have a few rifles that like the taste of it, but for the most part its Black powder for me. It is getting tougher to find locally though, the closest supplier to me is 30mi. from my home. My shooting pards and I got together over a year ago and purchased 25lb. from a distributor and upon taking inventory after the season, we will probably place another order this year. Local price/lb. is near $25.00, buying in bulk is A LOT cheaper!!! And like you I clean my guns after each shooting session so I could care less what one manufacturer or anothers claims are about being non-corrosive....Keep shootin' and watch yer topnot!!!.....BPS

Im sticking with my Pyro RS and Pyro Pellets, I also could care less about fouling and cleaning as I take extra good care of all My MLer's. For me as long as it works good Im sticking with it, and I do actually enjoy the cleaning part it gives me something to do at night while the wifes at work.
I was thinking of trying some BH but after reading this it's not something that I need to try, seems like too much of a hassle especially the ignition problems and cost of it.
(BP)

Thanks for this Dave. I always thought for all their differences, each powder has it's own quirks. I think I'll stick with the good ole tried and true Goex.

How's that old saying, Beware the man with one gun. Beware the man with one powder. ;)

HA

I do believe you are right. Goex Pinnacle I do not think is made anymore but I will not swear to that. Although there are places that have some still around. When it first came out, they claimed it would shoot in flintlocks so I purchased four pounds of it to test. And while it
"did kind of" shoot in flintlocks.. if you duplex the load with black powder it made it work much better.

But I did discover it shot great in inlines and even traditional rifles. And I started shooting it in my cap and ball revolvers.

So you're right I think. It is no longer made. But if you run across some... buy it. Its a nice powder.

Very good, informative post on powders. Having tried, and still using some of these powders You are spot on. I have never tried Blackhorn though, as I will not pay $ 40.00 for it. (Going price around here) My favorite remains real black, and I may finally get to try some Swiss, as I am going to Maine soon, and will stop at the Maine Powder House, and pick up some in both FFG, and FFFG.

I do believe you are right. Goex Pinnacle I do not think is made anymore but I will not swear to that. Although there are places that have some still around. When it first came out, they claimed it would shoot in flintlocks so I purchased four pounds of it to test. And while it
"did kind of" shoot in flintlocks.. if you duplex the load with black powder it made it work much better.

But I did discover it shot great in inlines and even traditional rifles. And I started shooting it in my cap and ball revolvers.

So you're right I think. It is no longer made. But if you run across some... buy it. Its a nice powder.[/QUOTE]

Cayugad,

Thanks for the info, I have one partial can left. When my MK85 arrives, I will certainly use it up in that rifle. Once gone, I guess I will have to switch to T7 because I don't seem to be smart enough to find and black powder in SE Michigan.

I think I read on one of the threads here that the Pinnacle is/was a sugar based powder made in conjunction with American Pioneer (which everyone seems to universally hate). Pinnacle was pretty good stuff. Since the new Black MZ is an Alliant/American Pioneer cooperation, do you think it will be a decent powder?

I can not say if Black MZ will be a good powder. If it is the same as the old Black Mag powder.. that was a very good powder.

Very good post Dave, very informative.

Wow, I didn't know that happened! Good to know. I'm glad I asked this question now. Thanks.

I'm a little late to this dance (been hunting), but let me add a FIVE STAR rating to your post Cayugad. Well done and spot on.

I think this should be entitled "Some powder observations" and put in the help forum.

Dave and Dutch:
i'm a dedicated user of Goex Pinnacle powder. Pinnacle is still available from Powder, Inc.

http://www.powderinc.com/cgi-bin/bps...R_ID=964381342

BlackMag3 will never be made again unless some other company does it. BlackMag lost its license to manufacture powder after the wreck that killed two workers at their plant.

Works for me. Before leaving the range i either spray Windex with vinegar into the bore or use a saturated patch. Makes cleanup at home much easier.

Great info.

I will have to try the "Simple Green" treatment.

Great post, Dave. Very clear and easy to read. Addresses a topic that has some (or many) of us mystified.