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txhunter58 05-01-2005 01:13 PM

private land hunts vs. public land hunts
There always seem to be some who think that private land hunts, even those that involve no high fences and are fair chase ranches, are not really "hunts" and anyone who lowers themselves to hunt private land should not be thought of as a real hunter.

I guess they think that the private land hunt is too "easy" so it is not really hunting. This kind of hunting "snobbery" has been going on forever, and I suspect that it will continue to occur, but I hope that the vast majority of hunters see through the hypocracy. As stated too many times to count on threads like this in the past, if you use this logic to say that only the kind of hunting YOU do is REALLY hunting, think again unless:

You hunt only in animal skins using homemade clothing/footwear (no synthetic longjohns, no goretex jackets, and certainly no hunting boots!

Hunt with spears, knives, and bow and arrows (longbows only) CERTAINLY NO GUNS ALLOWED: TOO EASY!!!

No binoculars. Gives the hunter an unfair advantage.

Certainly no hunts should EVER be allowed during the rut of any animal. To easy!

Don't every hunt over a water hole or wallow. Then it is not hunting, just waiting.

Be sure and stop all "quality" public land hunts too. Less hunters in the woods and the "stockpiling" of trophy animals in those units makes the hunting too easy too.

And while we are at it, better not leave the house in a truck. Better just have a horse available. Don't want to have the advantage driving 50+ miles to a better hunting area.

Oh, and by the way, if you are driving to your hunting area and a big buck or bull runs across the road in front of you and stops and gives you time to get out, go off the road right of way, and legally take a shot, no, no no. Can't do that. You have to pass on that one and hike at least a mile or more from the truck before it is really "hunting"

There are some forms of hunting that are illegal (night hunting with a spotlight, etc) and there are some forms that we should work to make illlegal (shooting animals in a pen, canned hunts). There are a lot of grey areas that we can disscuss, but to I believe to condem others in that dissussion is wrong. Those that choose to condem others lose my respect and any chance they have of convincing me that they have a valid point.

I don't think they will ever get very far trying to outlaw hunts on private land or making it a law that anyone can hunt all private ranches. Not usless those people would agree to let me come in their home property at any time I choose. Maybe I should be at least able to pitch a tent or park my camper on their property when I go hunting near their home?

I get tired of people claiming that only THEIR form of hunting is really hunting, because of some macho self-determined "standard" that they set for themselves and others. If I want to set a particular standard for myself, and hold to that, so be it, but I do not presume to tell other people that they are not really hunters if they choose to hunt differently. They are not beneath me if I choose to hunt only with a bow, but they hunt with a telescoped rifle. As long as it is illegal, power to them.

When I was a boy, I felt I knew it all, and it was mostly black and white. When I became a man, I realize that there are lots of shades of grey and I don't condem anyone who hunts in a manner that is legal and respects the game he pursues and the land on which it pursures it.

charlie brown 05-01-2005 01:28 PM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
Well spoken TX. I have noticed that too. I remember not too long ago, one person made a comment about a mule deer that was shot on a 30,000 something acre working cattle ranch. No high fences, just field 3 string barbed wire fence. But that deer was not hard earned. I have no problems with hunting on private ranches, especially working cattle ranches where the area is wide open, and deer, elk, or antelope can still easily outrun and outwit their oppenent (namely US). I hunt water holes on public land, I don't hesitate to take the first opportunity at an animal (ie, if it is standing next to the road in season). Its not my fault it presented itself that way, lol. I think this mentality comes mainly from people in the more populated areas where there are a larger amount of high fenced ranches, and less room between towns. I know of some ranches out here that are larger than the space between most towns back east!! Now if that isn't a barrier, I don't know what is, lol.

manboy 05-01-2005 02:28 PM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
i do believe there is a place for those records(private land) and it should not be in the b&c or p&y club books.

wow i am going to get it again!!

270 is fine i just don't own one!

Colorado Bob 05-01-2005 05:31 PM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
txhunter-------I agree----well said. I save my breathe on these types of discussion & the other big one--270 Win & elk hunting.

waterfx 05-01-2005 07:07 PM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
mmm i own private land almost next door too a state wild life area it is fenced my land isn't so it is wrong of me or my trophy shouldn't go into the record books but if i hunt on the state wildlife area that is fenced it is alright do I have this straight LMAO

huntnmuleys 05-01-2005 07:23 PM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
i think there are two types of private land, or maybe two thought processes on them.

in the prairie area i hunt, i hunt some public, some private. a lot of it isnt even fenced, so unless your really accurate on the map, ya may not be where ya think ya are. the deer are just as not easy for me to get within bow range of on both the private and public. a lot of the private i hunt is like that, and some is private, but basically unregulated, where the landowner pretty much lets everybody hunt. easy? not a chance. in that prairie area i was talking of, i have not shot a buck onthe private side, all of my kills have been on the public. maybe private is tougher???

then there is the private where the farmer has a huge spread, and allows no hunting, except for his family. of course there are much bigger bucks than on the public, only a handful of deer every year are taken. in those instances, that private land hunt is maybe not easier, but the trophy potential is much better there than where everybody else gets to hunt.

i dont think there should be a different record book for public and private, but i will say this, one local bowhunter (self proclaimed expert) i know has killed 3 or 4 really nice muley bucks, in that 160-170 range. these were all on private land that he married into, and had exclusive rights to. now he hunts where the rest of us do, i guess the family sold the property maybe, not sure. anyway, i dont think he has killed a mature buck since. now in this case obviously the private land helped him a ton. but by the same token, he was the one that made the sneak and the shot. were the deer less spooky? probably. better trophy quailty due to little pressure? probably. would i have shot any of these deer if i had the chance? for sure.

like i said, i think there are 2 ways of looking at this

manboy 05-01-2005 07:31 PM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
huntnmuleys was your deer this year on public?

huntnmuleys 05-01-2005 07:33 PM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
im not sure, but i did cross private to get there. i think he was on public, but who knows

txhunter58 05-01-2005 09:11 PM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
You are right of course Colorado Bob, it probably isn't worth the effort, but when someone starts running down an elk shot by a 12 year old cancer survivor, it just puts me over the top and I can't ignore it.

By the way, we are heading up to your neck of the woods on July 1st, so I still hope to get a chance to meet you. We are going to me heading over north of Dolores to do some camping, fishing and of course scouting, but we are flying into and out of Durango, so I will give you a shout when the time gets closer.

ShatoDavis 05-02-2005 10:47 AM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
I agree totally! I think only fair chase hunting is true hunting. Now whether that is on private or public land doesn't matter. I know of public land that is land locked by private. The only way to get to it is through private land, to do that you must ask permission and most likely pay a fee to drive across a man's land. Should animals killed on that public land be excluded from the P&Y or B&C record books as well manboy? No this argument is pointless. I am totally opposed to high fence or canned hunts. I am oppossed to Hunting shows on TV that hunt on high fence ranches. But, hunting free ranging animals on private land is in no way different from hunting on national forest land.

Also, while we're at it I would like to make a request. When someone asks a question about a specific gun or caliber, lets answer the question not tell them our personal preference on calibers. It must be aggrevating for someone to ask if he should buy a 300 wsm or a 7 mag and have everybody argue that the 270 is enough, or that the 30-06 is best or hey buy a 338 already. Those are our preferences.

manboy 05-02-2005 12:53 PM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
i beleive that anyone who pays to cross private land to hunt public is crazy! that is my opinion! and i believe there should be2 sets of books, becuase where i live, some of my buddys hunt public, but the game they hunt just came off of private land. where this deer see people everyday and are not to worried, then bang! WOW!!!! luck at this monster, and i say ya wow. it is just not that much of a challenge to me, that is my opinion, and nobody will change that! ;)

270's i like them, i just don't own one!

ShatoDavis 05-02-2005 01:55 PM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts

Thats interesting. I've had the pleasure of hunting in some wilderness areas where the game has seen very limited numbers of people if any at all. They are very unconcerned with humans. They even seemed to be curious about our presence. Would by your criteria they be relegated to the sub-catergory "book"? Just a thought, because it seems you define them by the ease/difficulty with which they are harvested. I'm not trying to change your opinion. Simply trying to understand it.

max the dog 05-02-2005 07:30 PM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
I gave up hunting public land when I decided that I didn't want to get shot at anymore. I'm sorry guys but even the backwoods has it's fill of shoot happy once a year hunters who target anything that's brown. I'm begining to think that some of these guys are color blind because all the orange in the world doesn't stop them from shooting at noises and shadows.

Private land is just plain safer. I own 80 in western Illinois and it's expensive but worth every single penny. I know every inch of it, I plant food plots, drop timber and plant brush to create funnels, and scout scout scout. Don't tell me of any unfair advantages, the deer roam all over the county. Heck even my squirrels cross onto my neighbors property.
Yes I have some advantages but I'm still after the same deer public land hunters are after.

manboy 05-02-2005 10:03 PM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
yes, but we can not cut timber to form funnels, or plant food plots! and we are not the only hunters hunting an area!

manboy 05-02-2005 10:07 PM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
and shato- u are so right, i saw this on a wilderness hunt where the elk looked right at huntnmuley and i and just keep on feeding, and we were only 50 yards away! i have never seen that before, where i usually hunt if an elk see you, hear you, or smell you, they blow out of there! so i do see your point on that one! and i will tell you this i will have a tag this year! look out elk!:D

James B 05-03-2005 12:18 AM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
This question blows my mind. I hunt Mule deer almost 100 percent on private land but there are no fences that can keep a deer on that land and there are thousands of acres where I hunt. I don't give a hoot about records but animals taken on private land that are free to go anywhere the please should be fine in the books. Fences that hold cattle do not interfere with big game travel.

Now its a completely different deal in my opinion if you are hunting a managed herd that is confined or fenced in. Those records should be for managed game only and not allowed in B&C. and record books like that. Just hunting private land should not matter.

I hunt Elk and most other game including whitetail on public land because there are few whitetails on the private land I hunt, and of course to elk, moose or bears are public land only. I have shot a few elk on private land but they were free ranging and not managed herds.

Given a choice of free ranging animals , I would much rather hunt private land. I have no desire to hunt a high fence or managed herd but its fine for those who like it and can pay for it. That ain't me though.

txhunter58 05-03-2005 07:22 AM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
Manboy. You continue to ignore my premis: that you have set an arbitrary "bar" that you feel you and other people have to jump over to be considered "real hunters". Does that mean that you don't use a gun? That certainly would seem to stack the deck in your favor. Again, you can set any standards you want for yourself, but if you start setting standards for others on any fair chase hunt (defined as any area without high fences in my book) then you are a hypocrit if you use any modern "tools" to hunt with.

The "bar" for me may very well be that I only consider it "real" hunting if I use a bow, but I would never try to tell you that your gun killed animal is not worthy, even if you happend to be driving along and it ran out in front of you and you shot it legally, or if you shot it at the only waterhole in 5 square miles.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is great to set standards for yourself. The mulie I killed after waiting 8 years for a tag and backpacking in 5 miles is one of my most treasured memories/trophies, so I understand your thinking and feeling about hunting, just not publicly looking down on others who have different standards for themselves.

kshunter 05-03-2005 08:05 AM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
I think James B. said it well

I don't give a hoot about records but animals taken on private land that are free to go anywhere the please should be fine in the books. Fences that hold cattle do not interfere with big game travel.

Now its a completely different deal in my opinion if you are hunting a managed herd that is confined or fenced in. Those records should be for managed game only and not allowed in B&C. and record books like that. Just hunting private land should not matter.
To me it's not the issue of private vs. public, but instead... high-fence confined vs free-ranging. Everybody has their own way of hunting.

manboy 05-05-2005 10:10 AM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
i think hunting private land does give people an andvantage over the PUBLIC land hunters.
1. unless this private land is open to anyone at no charge, it will have less hunters, PERIOD!
2.if this private land has any managment done to it, it will have advantages, PERIOD!
3.those deer do cross into public at night to feed, and then move to private to stay all day, the deer will move depending on pressure, private hunts have less pressure, PERIOD.

those are my reasons I do not like private land hunts, if any of u don't like those reasons, i don't care! i will not post on this again! if u want to hunt those areas be my guest, just don't ask for my opinion on it!;)

so have a nice easy hunt! and make yourself feel good!

skeeter 7MM 05-05-2005 11:59 AM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
I hunt both and see no difference in the challenge levels it takes to hunt them. You still need to do your homework, know the animals habits and be in the right place at the right time. B&C/P&Y consider them equal as well, unless high fenced which they consider not fair chase. I think most hunter divide the two similarily, so lets not confuse the 2 sets for PRIVATE land hunting here. Not that their is anything wrong with a hunt ranch format, if your happy that is all that really matters. Bikering amongest ourselves really does nothing, so while my opinion may vary on the subject it is just an opinion not a statement of fact!

Management has nothing to do with it, as many who own private property can chose if they want to deploy herd/buck management. Same with food plots, agriculture fields, baits, calls, scents, etc. Are all personal choices and if legal you do whatever you want to do. I or B&C/P&Y don't consider this an unfair advantage.

Our elk hunting crew owns 3 quarters that is located, of course we bought it for hunting but it is unaltered from original state and the animals can roam to the public and other private lands without barrier. The land is partially agriculture and planted by the local farmer who leases it for crop or hay, what he plants is of his choosing, just like prior to us purchasing it. The only advantage we really have is we are the only hunters who hunt it, but seeing it is our dollars I believe that is fair. All 3 quarters have public lands surrounding it and in fact a majority of the elk live/bed on these public lands. We can not nor do stop hunters from hunting these public areas that actually feed our are we really more advantaged??

James B 05-05-2005 03:44 PM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
To me its a mute point anyway. There is no public land in the unit that I hunt in. The animals live, eat, drink and sleep on private land. You have to get permission to hunt or put in for a different unit.

justhuntitall 05-05-2005 05:21 PM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
All I can say to this is manboy you must not have ever hunted private ground or have got around very much sounds like inexperiance to me.:eek:

NVMIKE 05-05-2005 05:23 PM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
James B - you hit the bullseye w/ your first post(kinda like one bullet -one kill:D). Private vs. public isnt the real issue to me its enclosed farm raised animals that are my bone of contention, and that only goes so far as records are concerned. If you want to shoot a elk in a 40acre pen w/ his momas milk still on his lip, by all means do so, just dont think it should be listed w/ that bull that was shot 40miles into the wilderness on the hoback or sawtoothes ect...

rather_be_huntin 05-05-2005 05:29 PM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
All that matters is the animals are free ranging. Public vs. Private doesn't mean a thing. There is a little bit of an advantage most of the time on private land because of hunting pressure. But it's not enough to say it's not real hunting or there needs to be 2 books. Again all that matters is the animals are free ranging. That's it.

txhunter58 05-05-2005 07:02 PM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
Manboy said:

those are my reasons I do not like private land hunts, if any of u don't like those reasons, i don't care! i will not post on this again! if u want to hunt those areas be my guest, just don't ask for my opinion on it!

My reply:

I never asked for your opinion in the first place and neither did the person posting "DETERMINATION". The only reason I got involved is because YOU chose to offer YOUR opinion that a nice bull killed by a 12 year old cancer survivor was not worthy. If you had taken your own advice, we would not be having this disscussion because no one asked your opinion. Sometimes it does pay to keep your opinion to yourself. When I have stuck my foot in my mouth (way too many times to count) I try my best to say I am sorry and move on.

Good hunting!

shed33 05-06-2005 12:54 PM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
Bottom line is. Animals that associate many/several stimuli with danger are going to be more alert and on guard than that of another animal that may not associate those same stimuli with danger. With that being said, in general, lands that get pressured highly whether they are public or private often hold less tolerant critters and be much lower in numbers for quality age structure. On the other hand animals that do not associate many stimuli with danger will often tolerate more human intrusion. Public lands as a whole tend to get a lot of pressure, yet we all know there are pieces of public that do not. For the most part private lands get less pressure and thus animals tend to be more tolerant of human intrusion and there is often a higher number of older mature animals. We all know there are exceptions to the private land scenario as well. Common sense to me says: Anyone hunting pressured animals that consistently takes mature critters for those areas whether it be private or public is doing something right.

Adding in many other variables for instance conditioning of animals that many hunters take part in. Feeding, baits and scents for example create another equation. Every place hunted has it's own specific variables and thus would hold different challenges/obstacles for a hunter.

Then throw in what weapon is used and we unload a whole other part to the equation! I hunt private land and public mostly with my bow, and some rifle. Both have made me a better hunter, but I have worked harder on most of the public lands than I haved had to on private pieces. I find that the public land animals in my neck of the woods are much less tolerant than that of the private land critters I too hunt in area, yet I do have a few public land spots that are not pressured like other public land spots and they do for a fact up my odds seeing a more "light" tolerant animal. Meaning I see critters in these hide a ways moving out in the open or even in cover more freely during daylight hours. I like hunting specific critters, so If I find him on public I am hunting him there, if he's on private then I am hunting there. The nicest buck I have harvested with my bow lived right on the line of public and private he used both lines daily. His feed was on private and his bed on public.

I realize and agree that most public lands offer more obstacles, other hunters for one. But I will say this, when I see a guy/gal whom hunts "pressured" lands consistently bagging quality animals for that region, I want to know what it is that works for them and how they approach their hunting. They must be doing something right. Public or Private, pressure creates obstacles.

Example, I learned more from Pat Ely about turkey hunting calling in one week than I had learned in 34 years. Pat comes from PA. He hunts very high pressured private land turkeys and is very successful. He came out west last spring and show me how to talk to a turkey from many different scenarios. The merriams here have never had the talk thrown at them like Pat had in his arsenal. He had them running to us. Two big gobblers leaving their hens we scored on in two days and one in the midst of a Snow Storm! Not to mention many younger toms. These birds as Pat said were less cautious and more tolerant of us. I think it was more skill than anything. He hunts mostly private land in PA, yet more pressured than the private timber company ground (public accessible by anyone) we hunted here.

High fenced hunting operations do not interest me. I have always felt a critter was intended to be wild and free not penned in any aspect.

ShatoDavis 05-06-2005 01:25 PM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts

I have a different perspective. I think that hunting in the most remote area where the animals have rarely seen human is what hunting is supposed to be.. When I go hunting I don't want to see anyone else in my area. If manBOY or any one else thinks that they have to hunt high pressure animals to be a real hunter I feel sorry for them. Pressured animals are harder to hunt that's a fact. To say that it requires better skills is an opinion. To be certain they require a different skill set, I just might not agree that it is a more refined skill.

I know of hunters who hunt high pressure areas for the same reason they are high pressure: Because they are easy to get to. They can ride their ATV's right to where they want to hunt. I have my opinions on the use of ATV's but I will not share them. These hunters are successful, but that in no way makes them more skilled. I say the opposite is true, They are lazy and are not willing to work to hunt the truely prime areas.

Hunting the wilderness areas is a daunting task. You need skills that go beyond mear stalking skills. You have to be woods wise, you have to be skilled with livestock, you have to be mentally prepared for the work load. You have to know how to tend to the carcass. You can't drive it to the locker plant. etc. etc. You guys can have the high pressure areas, I'm going to work hard to get to the places that very few are willing to get too. And I am unashamed to pay for the services of an outfitter. I pay for the services of their pack string, of their cook, and for the oppurtunity to hunt in pristine areas. If anyone thinks less of me because of it, I could care less.

Some of the best woodsman I know work the hardest to hunt unpressured animals. Whether it be on private land or in the far reaches of public land is of no consequence.

OBTW if manboy doesn't want people arguing with his ideas he should stop posting them every chance that he gets. Truth be told I believe a bit of envy is involved here.

James B 05-06-2005 01:54 PM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
Well said.!! Like I said there is no choice for me in the Unit that I hunt Mule deer. There is no public land in many of the units where I hunt. Some of the private land is easy access some it next to impossible. You can work as hard as you want or try for an easy one. The deer come out to feed on the grain fields. You have to do your scouting to know where which animals are bedding down and where they may come out to feed. The Elk are 90 percent on public land much of which is only accessable on foot. Anyway I can see little difference in way you have to hunt the critters. Therefore I can see no reason why they should not be acceptable in the record books. I don't do the trophy thing but its important to some.

huntnmuleys 05-06-2005 04:06 PM

RE: private land hunts vs. public land hunts
this really is a helluva subject....

i am with ya shatodavis on the part of liking to be where ya see no other hunters. i try to elk hunt in those areas every year. its a different kind of hunting for sure. i live near the black hills of wyoming. people elk hunt there every year. elk are VERY skittish, due to lots of pressure, so in a way that makes a very difficult hunt.....on the other hand, i have been close to a lot of high country elk, some let me get away with a lot of little mistakes due to not being pressured, but its difficult too, walking miles everyday at 11,000 feet.

it can be tough anywhere. here near town, my favorite little muley area gets a ton of pressure. its a prairie area, and in a general seaons for locals, easy draw for non residents. what tips it in my favor is that 95% of the hunters are lazy road hunters, and i hunt on foot. i know the bedding areas, i know the get away routes. and i see and get near nice deer every year. i do agree with a lot of what manboy is trying to say. around here, we have HUGE tracts of private land. HUGE tracts of public too. on some of these places, the only hunters are the owners. they usually get some really nice animals. i DO NOT feel that they are even decent hunters, as most of them are road hunters. do i wish i had the same oppurtunity? hell yes! if those places let me walk in and hunt it right, what kind of animals might i have the chance at? mindboggling.

there should not be separate record books however, these animals are free to move as they please, and i have done this enough to know that although few and far between, the big ones are on the public too. i see em every year.....just find a way of not getting an arrow into them:)

however, rather we want to admit it or not, those of us who hunt private do have some sort of an advantage over the regular hunter. i get some permission on some decent places sometimes, and have shot some pretty nice animals there that i wouldnt have got on the public. like it or not its the truth.


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