Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

Which of these three loads would you use for Brown Bear Defense and Why?

Estate SWAT 2 ¾” 9 Pellet 00 Patterns
29 yrds: 6”x 7.5”
29 yrds: 10”x 10”
29 yrds: 6”x 6.5”
29 yrds: 12”x 10” (7”x6” minus flyer)
29 yrds: 6”x 3.5” ***(7 pellets in a 2”x2” area WOW!)***
42 yrds: 7 pellets on paper in a 10”x17.5” area (two flyers off paper)
42 yrds: 16.5”x 24” (9.5”x 12” minus 2 flyers)
42 yrds: 13”x 14”
Average 29 yrd ( - flyer): 7”x 6.7” ****Tightest Patterning Load of the Bunch!!!
Average 42 yrd: 14.75”x 19”

Velocities
1,166 fps
1,124 fps
1,140 fps
1,136 fps
1,152 fps
Average: 1,144 fps
486 grains @ 1,144 fps –1,413 ft/lbs (157 per pellet)




Nitro 3 ½” 12 Pellet 0000 (.38 caliber pellets)
29 yrds: 18”x 12”
29 yrds: 6”x 27” (6”x 14” minus flyer)
29 yrds: 16”x 7” (16”x 26” minus 2 flyers)
42 yrds: 7 pellets on paper in a 17”x 26” area
Average 29 yrd ( - flyer): 13.3”x 15.3”

Velocities
1,137 fps
1,141 fps
1,135 fps
1,142 fps
Average: 1,140 fps
[b]960 grains @ 1,140 fps –2,770 ft/lbs (231 per pellet)[b]




Winchester XX 2 ¾” 12 Pellet 00
15 yrds: 6”x 7”
15 yrds: 6”x 8” (6”x2”minus flyer)
29 yrds: 16”x 10” *(5 pellets center of aim in a 4”x2.5” area!)
29 yrds: 14”x 14”
29 yrds: 15”x 10” *(6 pellets (50%) center of aim in a 4”x4.5” area!)
29 yrds: 15”x 11”
29 yrds: 11”x 10” (6.5”x 9” minus flyer)
29 yrds: 12”x 16” (8 pellets in a 6”x 6” area)
42 yrds: 16”x 22”
42 yrds: 21”x 19”
42 yrds: 20”x 19”
42 yrds: 20”x 18”
60 yrds: (4 pellets on paper, further 60 yrd shots discontinued)
Average 15 yrd (- flyer): 6”x 7.5”
Average 29 yrd (- flyer): 13”x 11.5”
Average 42 yrd: 19.25”x 19.5”

Velocities
1,207 fps
1,221 fps
1,231 fps
1,219 fps
1,226 fps
Average: 1,221 fps
648 grains @ 1,221 fps –2,145 ft/lbs (179 per pellet)





From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

I would have to go with the 3.5" nitro 0000 Because if you are going to use buckshot for defense I assume it would be a last defense and fairly close range (inside 30 yards) the 0000 pack a bigger wallop than the others do. They will also penetrate better than the rest and if you're going to bother to shoot it you might as well kill it also. What choke did you use for the tests? Play around with the choke if you can. My shotgun patterns 3" 00 better with mod. than full. Also where do you get 0000 buck shot? I've never seen it before.

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

Hmmmm, good point. That load is quite a round.... The only problem is it kicks like Godzilla, so follow up shots would be slower.

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

if its for defense its really not good enough i like to be able to stick my head in the wound channel and see what kind of damage i did <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

you can use your pepper spray my 12 gauge with 3 inch slugs works fine

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

Heh, my 3 1/2&quot; 12 pellet 0000 (.38 cal pellets) buckshot load (or pepper spray as you call it) is MUCH more powerful than any slug.

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

Have fished Alaska for 24 years straight and have been rock throwing distance from browns feeding on salmon. I started out carrying a 44 mag until I went down in a river and would have drowned if not for a good cast from a freind with 15 pound test. The 44 was good to shoot myself with before the bear could eat me. Most of the guides carry a 12 guage with pistol grip and either buckshot with a slug backup or just shot. I would carry a 3.5 inch binelli auto with the big shot in federal. Good luck and carry a camera so someone can recover the photos for the forum when they find what's left of you. Leave the candy bars out of your pack.

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

Just guessing Blain, but if you ever were in the situation where you HAD to use the 12 gauge for &quot;defense&quot;, I'd guess you won't even fill the gun kick or hear it go off, so I would opt for the biggest, kickenist, hardest hitting load that the gun could handle.That's just me, and if I was beside you at this very point of finding out if it worked, I would just pray that my tenny shoes were lighter with better grip than the shoes you had on.:)

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

I gave up the guns and started taking guys who were 50 pounds fatter or had heart trouble. Never told them why they were on the invite list!

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

well if its a close up shot& a brown bear ,id think you may only see mosty the bears head face neck area as a target.I Would want something that penatrates really well.. not soft small buck shot.
Think a slug be better or large steel balls? or jacketed sabot bullets maybe..

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

New sabot loads are interesting but accuracy is a challenge when a charge is on and your pants are filling up. Bottom line is that browns can outrun a deer in first 50 yards and if you do shoot one the fish and game will be living with you. Best to make noise and leave the food at camp. If they are feeding well usaully OK. Have a video of a sow and two cubs across a small creek and her charging me but she turned around midstream after I backed off. Never supposed to run from a bear but I'm living proof that you can and survive. Just lucky.

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

Yep think id like to aviod the bear last stand situation if at all possible lol.

I see now theres a foot lbs energy for those 38 cal balls at 231 ... each. I sure wouldnt want to shoot a brown bear with a 38 special & a soft bullet ( &light ones too?)AS a whole tho that load looks the best with a shot load.
Found some old 50 cal cases& a link& a few bullets in the mtns, ww2 practice area i think(planes)... those full metal jackets still in great shape other then being green.

700+ grains nice& pointy & full metal jacket. bet theyed penatrate well & no need for expantion lol. would fit in a 12 gauge hull?3inch? 12 gauge = 76 cal right?<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

But taking the fat ier guy who cant run as fast sounds easyier.(:D)

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

May i have my smaller (under 76 cal.) lead balls plated( bronze , copper etc) plz & no 22,sballsa thks <img src=icon_smile_sleepy.gif border=0 align=middle> bears should not be poked.

&lt;'&gt;&lt;

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

BLAIN...


you ever get to go to the hunt in austrailia for free form that guy who thought you could not take their game with buckshot?

also you gonna hunt MA. this year? let me know.

[email protected]

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

Well, Blains last response was three days ago. Maybe he finally went bear huntin`.



<font size=6>R.I.P.</font id=size6><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

Peter Hathaway Capstick in one of his books(I believe it was &quot;Death in Silent Places&quot;) talks about this very subject only his quary isa wounded Leopard, considered by most the most dangerous game. He did some research about buckshot and found that the way teh pellets load into a shotshell Number 1 buck has over 1/3 MORE pellets that 00 buck and a diameter of only .03 inches less. .30 vs .33.
He made a very persuasive argument about the uses and non-uses of buckshot including a story about shooting a lion with a number of rounds at 35 - 40 yards and none of the pellets penitrating to do any damage.

From what I have seen and read is you are going to use a shotgun for self defense against a bear it will need to be at very close distance or you are just going to make the bear made and also target the head and not body. IF he can't see you he is going to have a tougher time finding you.

Just my 2 cents



Greg

&quot;Getting close to the game is the joy of Bowhunting for me, the harvest is a bonus.&quot;

Live 15 ft Python after eating a small Antelope!

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

&quot;also you gonna hunt MA. this year? let me know.&quot;

Yeah, I really want to go hunting this year, I'll PM you my number and e-mail address and we'll get in touch.

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

I couldn't find a way to PM you, so I just e-mailed you instead.

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

&quot;Using Buckshot for bear defense&quot; some reason that just doesnt sit well with me.<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

Yes, I will use you for bear defense!! I have the honey bottle I am going to squirt on you right here.

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

Are any of these loads plated or just lead balls? The plated buckshot holds a great pattern. It's what I would use.

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

It is very hard buckshot, yes.

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

Where is that hog hunter guy from Texas?

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

Bears love bacon...<img src=icon_smile_8ball.gif border=0 align=middle> can save the drippings for about a year n a extra lg bag of marshmelows & a long pointy stick<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>
Bear bq
&gt;&lt;'&gt; <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

I agree with 1 eyedfish. I would rather have a slug. but that is me.

Brian

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

Blain,
Sorry I ain't been on lately, I've been trying to get myself tossed in Africa.
We're still waiting for your impoverished butt down in TX. load that smoke wagon up and come on down.

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

I'm coming, Surestrike!!
....are you ready????


When all the shot is in a close group it is akin to a large fragnible slug. You know how the poor farmers used to turn their birdshot into poor mans slugs by cutting around the base fo the shell so all the little tiny pellets would impact as one? When all the pellets are together then the energy is not the individual ammount per pellet, less anyone here beleives that 4 ft/lbs birdshot pellets can bring down a deer. Yet when the birdshot is in one mass it does.

Also there is a saying that within 3-5 yards all loads of shot or slug are bassiclly the same.

&quot;When Earnest Hemingway was about to go after a leopard into the cat's grass bed his assistant realized that he had forgotten the buckshot loads. All that was left was some #8 birdshot. Hemingway said, &quot;At the distance I'll be shooting it doesn't matter what load I'm using&quot;. He killed the leopard in one shot.&quot;

Here are some accounts of actual bear/buckshot encounters.

&quot;I went Bear hunting in Michigan this year after waiting seven years to get a tag. This is my first bear hunt and it was a full moon, so like deer the bears were moving late. I opted to take my 3 1/2 inch mossberg and use buckshot. The bear came in fifteen yards and never moved another inch. All eighteen pellets hit the bear. A nice humane kill. That Mossberg is one bad gun within 50 yards.

mich buckmaster

Blain, thanks for the reassurance of using the buckshot. I have used buckshot for deer and coyotes. I only use it in areas where my shot will be within 70 yards. I would put a 3 1/2inch buckshot against any gun. I once shot at a doe and dropped two deer with one single shot. I use a turkey choke and can put 12 pellets in a paper plate at 50 yards. I would say that is very deadly. The bear I shot, all eighteen pellets went right through the bear makin a hole about the size of a galf ball. A couple pellets went and hit the other shoulder, destroying it. A good, clean, humane kill. Thats what we all strive for.&quot;

“Blain-
Here are the examples I know of.
1) Several years back, a farmer I knew had a problem black bear, so he took to keeping his shotgun handy. The bear appeared close by,, he grabbed his gun, and shot it once with 2 3/4&quot; OO. The bear dropped dead at the shot. Two pellets had hit in the head and pierced the skull.

2)A fellow I know also had a problem bear coming to his property. He shot it in the chest and shoulder, it was slightly quartering towards him. That bear took off running, and was shot again, in the side of the ribs. That slowed him up but didn't kill him. A final shot brought him down, and killed him. OO buckshot.

3) A good friend was working at a logging camp, and they had a problem bear. One day they surprised the bear, which ran up a tree. He shot it with a OO 2 3/4 shell. This dropped the bear to the ground, where it began thrashing about and trying to get up. A follow up shot at close range to the head killed it.

4)A fellow I met had worked as a guide in northern BC. They were heading through the bush when they surprised a grizzly on a carcass. The bear charged, and was shot once in the shoulder. This didn't even faze him. A second shot to the head put the bear down. 3&quot; Copperplated 00.

I only witnessed the first one, but have no reason to doubt the other stories. The RCMP aropund here have taken to carrying slugs to deal with bears when the CO's can't attend, and I heard it was because the 00 wasn't doing too well. That is hearsay, of course.
When i carry a shotgun for protecton, they would come out the barrel as slug, OOO, slug slug slug. I throw the buck in there to give me a higher hit chance. Right or wrong, it's what I do.”

&quot;The outfitter himself carried a 12 gauge loaded with OO Buckshot. Turns out he had killed a charging grizzly with it a few years earlier. It was a medium-sized sow which charged him while he was field-dressing an elk. He hit it in the shoulder the first shot, doing great damage and knocking it down, but it got up and charged again. He shot it in the head at close range, killing it. Ruled justifiable self-defense by the powers that be.

OO buck wouldn't be my choice for bear defense, but this guy had results you just couldn't argue with.
Good Shooting, CoyDog&quot;

And just an interesting note on what is capable with slugs.

&quot;A few thoughts on slug effectiveness which some of you may not have heard about. I know that the common Foster-type slugs, as used in many American states, do just fine on whitetail deer, and even on black bear (although they're made to expand, so may not penetrate deep enough to reach the vitals on a heavier animal). Brenneke's do rather better on penetration, as they are specifically designed NOT to expand, on the principle that a 7½-inch-wide hole in an animal should be enough for the job! I understand that several grizzlies have been taken in Alaska at close range with Brenneke's, but that at 35-40 yards and further out, the velocity loss is such as to limit penetration, even with these hard boys.

I know that in Africa, several Cape buffalo have been taken with both Brenneke and Foster slugs. They were shot from broadside, and the Brenneke's proved capable of shooting right through them if no major bone structures were hit. When shoulder or rib bones were hit, the Brenneke's turned them into bone shrapnel, and stopped under the hide on the far side. The Foster slugs generally didn't perform well if bone was hit, but would do adequate damage to heart and lungs. The range on all of these shots, as far as I'm aware, was less than 30 yards, in heavy bush. (On all occasions, a hunter with a heavy rifle was standing by to back up the slug hunter if necessary - on at least 3 occasions, it was VERY necessary, as the buffs didn't seem to think that a shotgun slug in the ribcage was a sporting proposition!)

I don't think anyone's taken rhino or elephant with slugs. I daresay it might be technically possible to reach the heart or lungs with a clear side shot, and no intervening bone, but I think the animals' reactions to a muffed shot might be rather hairy for the close-range shotgun hunter - and I don't think a slug would turn a charge from the big beasties!&quot;

&quot;We have an excellent field report on the results of the Brenneke 12-gauge slug on a buffalo at 9 yards. It achieved full penetration, destroyed the heart (rendering it inedible), and lodged under the skin at the far side. It did not drop the beast in its tracks, but it killed him in a few yards. We have always preached that the 12-gauge Brenneke slug is a very efficient defensive projectile for heavy animals - providing that you use it at short range. Its ballistic shape is poor, cutting its effectiveness down radically as range increases. If you get involved with a dangerous animal, remember he cannot hurt you if he cannot touch you. If you use your weaponry properly, at 20-yards and under, you should make out very well.&quot;

Now who thinks the shotgun is bad?



From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

None of the buckshot. Leave that crap at home. Take a 3&quot; slug. Ask any outfitter. 1200fps with 38 bullets in a bear. You might end up dinner. Do the job right and go with 2200fps with a 1oz slug.

You got quite a number of statistics there in that last post. So Blain how many deer have you killed using thise buckshot compared to rifle or bow?



Edited by - bigcountry on 09/23/2002 09:32:31

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

<font size=6>BIG</font id=size6> <font size=5>Country!!!</font id=size5>
LOL, one ounce slug at 2200 fps??? That's over 4,600 ft/lbs of energy, only an elephant gun can come up with that type of power, not shotgun slug is nearly that powerful. I will put my gun with buckshot against any gun under 30 yards.

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

Blain,
I have never killed a bear. Have you? What kind(s)? What did you use? Did the round(s) that you used put the bear(s) down right away?

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

My bad, I exagerated a tad. More like 385gr at 1900fps and 3086ft/lbs of energy. I just don't see the need for the buckshot other than home defense. Why not spend more time at the range and practice and hit what your aiming at? I see buckshot as a crutch used for alot of people who likes to jump hunt deer. Which really ain't my style. Nothing wrong with it, I guess, just I like the feel of sneaking into the home of a big buck, and ambushing him. But the original question was about buckshot. Again, I ask the question, by limit yourself for only 30 yards with silly buckshot. I guess it will work up close to a bear. But why?

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

Why limit yourself to 50 yards with a muzzle loader, 30 yards with a bow and arrow? Or even closer with a blow dart? Because of the sport of is. I mean conversly why not just use a .50 bmg for everything and shoot things from 1000 yards away? Where is the sport? Proper buckshot hunting is VERY sporting, the patterns are too tight and the vital zone on an animal is too small to not &quot;aim&quot;. That is a common myth, shotguns must be aimed like anything else. There is a larger margin of error, but not by much.

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

So now you are saying that self defense while dealing with a brown bear is a SPORT?
Guess I`ll stick to ping pong!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

Blain,
I have never killed a bear. Have you? What kind(s)? What did you use? Did the round(s) that you used put the bear(s) down right away?

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

I wouldn't call buckshot hunting sport. Thats just my personal opinion. I mainly bowhunt. Now this is sporting. Just an opinion. Most people I have ever seen use the buckshot for jump hunting. Don't have any trouble with it, just see it as not that sporting. And alot of these guys, like my uncles that do this, are only after meat. They could care less about anything else. And pretty easy I might add. Kinda like when us bowhunters see someone dropped a deer and come over to take a look, and we are all impressed, then we see the crossbow in the truck, and kinda walk away. If your not a jump hunter, then I appologize. As far as the muzzleloader, better spend more time on the blackpowder forum. If you can only take game at 50 yards, you need help.

As far as your original topic. You were talking about good bear defense. Not really sporting.

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

I live in mississippi and we run dogs for deer down here quite a bit. The preferred gun for this is a 12 gauge with buckshot, it makes hitting a deer moving by at warp speed a bit easier than when using a rifle and it does a good job when used as it's intended. Max range on a deer for using buckshot is around 50 yds with 40 yds being a better practical maximum. It's adequate for deer at those ranges, but after seeing many deer hit with buckshot inside 40 yds and seeing how it rarely gives complete penetration on a 100 pound deer at those ranges I'd have to say anyone would be insane to use it for any kind of grizzly/brown bear defense at any range.

Edited by - boltman on 09/26/2002 02:08:35

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

Boltman, I hope you didn't take offense to my post about using buckshot. I have did this type of hunting before too. I just prefer the ambush method.

But I do have a question. Out of all the game I have shot, if I shot one on a running shot, they always taste so strong compared to the calm shot. Do you ever see this, since they are being ran by dogs?

Just curios.

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

Bigcountry, yes I've noticed that same thing. The common thought is that the strong, gamey taste comes from the adrenaline the deer works up being chased. The meat seems more tender and less gamey when it came from an unaware deer that was dropped in it's tracks.

RE: Buckshot for Bear Defense
 

A brown bear does not drop easy. My hunting buddy has shot 4 brownies and from those experiences he has the highest respect for the capabiliteis of a wounded grizzly. The last one he shot with a 375 mag. Bullet passed thru the shoulder completely shattering the whole upper leg and going on thru the lung. the second shot went thru the heart turning it into jelly. In spite of this the bear ran. But it did come back for a charge when he and his son tracked it. The bear was finally dropped for good on that final charge by 2 more shots from the 375 and one from his sons 30.06. It wasnt a matter of grain size, or velocity or even ft.lbs. of energy. It is more an animal that dont go down easy and is capable of doing major damage in a short time. If a bear like this can run on shattered bones and no heart how can anyone expect a round of buckshot to do any real damage. this is by far the most dangerous critter most of us will ever even think about having to confront. We will be going out this weekend for brownies and you wont see a shotgun between us. A 375, a 45/70, and a 338 win mag. Why? Cuz these are some of the rounds that have proven the most effective in these parts. A couple weeks ago a man and women were caribou hunting in the Denali Highway area. After filling their tags they spotted a gizzly in a field of berries and the guy put two shots from a 458 winchester in it.The bear ran into some alders so they decided to wait till the A.M. to go look for it. That bear despite being hit in the boiler room with at least one good shot was still able to charge and maul the guy before his wife was able to dispatch it with her 338. Forgive the rambling but when it comes to brownies and grizzlys there isnt much room to re-invent the wheel so to speak.You might want to at least talk to folks that encounter these bears on a somewhat regular basis before you go out and risk yours or some other unsuspecting persons life.