Africa Hunting
 

Hi There!

Just thinking of starting a conversation on African big game hunting, plains game hunting, African calibers etc. Is there anyone out there that might be interested in chatting or asking questions on African hunting. I have been hunting in Africa for more than 25 years and professionally for just over 11 years. Let's hear it!

RE: Africa Hunting
 

I am very facinated by the Cape Buffalo. Do you have any pics that i could see? Also what is the most interesting animal you have ever taken in Africa?

RE: Africa Hunting
 

is'nt it pretty spendy to hunt down there. and can you even eat some of those animals.

RE: Africa Hunting
 

I did a 7 day hunt excluding airfare, for less than a guided elk hunt. $2995 for Africa. I think Africa is the best deal going right now.

RE: Africa Hunting
 

Hippos


are hippos hunted in Africa. You hear about all these other dangerous animals being hunting but nothing about hippos. If my wildlife biology serves me right them things are nearly all meat and dangerous to boot. Why don't we hear of hippo hunts?

RE: Africa Hunting
 

I saw a hippo hunt on one of the shows on the Outdoor Channel a couple of months ago. Pretty intense stuff. At one point a big bull charged out of the water right at the guys before stopping just short, looked terrifying! They say the only fair way to hunt them is to get them on land. I guess shooting them in the water is not very sporting. Capstick said that hippo is some of the best meat in Africa. I'd like to find out some day.

RE: Africa Hunting
 

I have always wanted to hunt in Africa, but I guess I need to wait until I am older!
I know that if you really want some great conversation on hunting in africa go to the accuratereloading forums.
www.accuratereloading.com

RE: Africa Hunting
 

personally, i dont like the fact that you guys hunt in africa shooting zebra, lions and whatever else. i saw even in a magazine some guy shot a baboon, i thought monkeys arent alowed to be killed?? i strongly agree with hunting for the purpose to get meat to eat and use as much as the animal possible. i think it is sad what people will do just to get that "trophy" to hang on their wall or sit on the floor.

now i hunt for moose and deer, and i am sure there are some of you out there that think killing a moose is terible, but at least i eat it, i have never heard of someone hunting a zebra,elephant, lion or baboon for meat have you? but this is just my own opinion.

RE: Africa Hunting
 

MBRF, How can you pass judgement without knowing all the facts? All the meat from every animal is utilized, including zebra, elephant, hippo, and greatly appreciated by the locals. It is some times the only protien they recieve. A diet of mealy meal, corn mush, and a vegetable, are about all most Africans live on. I shot an elephant, and there was over 6000# of meat boned off, over the scale. Every clothes line, tree, and fence in the village was coverd with fresh meat. The heart alone weighed 68# and was eaten. The leg bones were taken and broken open and the bone marrow was eaten raw.

As for baboon, have you ever shot a coyote? A fox? A crow? A skunk? Baboon is in the same category. They destroy crops, orchards, bird egss, and even young antelope.

Now besides the meat, the money from tags and licenses, went into the local economy.

Your comments are one of the many things that are wrong with hunting. Hunters are thier own worst enemy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RE: Africa Hunting
 

well you are right, i dont know all the facts, i am glad to here that the meat is used(assuming that is true) and as far as the monkeys being varments, i still dont see a reason to shoot them, i have never shot anything cause is was a hassel to farmers, allthough i would love to kill a few crows, cant stand them.

i still dont think the hunting of exotic animals is a great thing, thats my opinion, but like i said i am glad to hear that the meat is used and that your spent money is going back into the local community.

thanks for the info

RE: Africa Hunting
 

Often the crop damage from one troop of baboons is enough to ruin a farmer for a season. Why wouldn't you help him sustain his livelyhood. I don't know about you but the only people I know that put animals before people are PETA wacko's.

RandyA- You beat me to the punch on the meat issue. And yes, MBRF, they really do use the meat.

RE: Africa Hunting
 

I really find it quite discouraging to have you guys ganging up one me! Just like you would like for people to be open to your ideas, I would appreciate the same in return. First of all, in my first posting, I did say that I was not familiar with African hunting and that my perspective was based only on what I have seen in magazines, none of which described the things that you have. I am glad to hear that the meat is used for food security in the country. This means that the animal is being used not only for its beauy-hides, tusks, etc, but also benefitting the people that live in the area. I am open to new perspectives and appreciated learning about the use of the animals meat. However, I find it very unfortunate that people like the both of you, are so stuck in your mindsets that you cannot see anything from others perspectives. You have judged and slandered(Wacko)just because I was open enough to voice my thoughts, in hopes that I might learn more about African hunting. Well I have learned more alright! Some people are narrow minded and can't see past themselves!!!!!

RE: Africa Hunting
 

MBRF

Those guys werent ganging up on you. You said that you didnt see a reason to shoot them, and he replied with one. And i dont know about you but i heard that africans are very poor, so they need all the food they can get and if a whole season of crops are destroyed then there ruined. And if these guys wouldnt have posted that then some people reading it could think african hunters are horrible.

RE: Africa Hunting
 

MBRF- I think that you are the one who is being narrow minded. Just because you don't agree with a type of hunting doesn't mean it is wrong. Ive never been to Africa, but I understand that population growth and ranching have decreased the numbers of natural predators, so it's just like here where the only consistant way to control animal #s is through hunting. I know this is the oldest argument in the book, but it is the truth. If hunters didn't kill those baboons who would. I think the reason you were getting "ganged up on" was because your opinion was so grossly uneducated, you basically said so yourself. Maybe if you didn't know the details, you should have asked a question instead of spouting such an uninformed opinion.

RE: Africa Hunting
 

DONT CALL ME UNEDUCATED, THERE IS NOTHING WORSE THAN PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT "THINK" THEY KNOW IT ALL, PEOPLE ASK QUESTIONS TO BE MORE EDUCATED DONT YOU THINK, OR AM I WRONG, AFTER READING WHAT YOU GUYS WRITE I NOW KNOW MORE. I AM NOT UNEDUCATED, I CONSIDER MYSELF QUITE KNOWLEDGABLE, BUT NOT ON ALL SUBJECTS. I MAYBE NAORROWMINDED, BUT ONLY UNTIL I KNOW MORE FACTS OK. I AM ALWAYS ONPEN TO THINGS. DONT GO AND START CALLING PEOPLE DOWN ABOUT HOW SMART THEY ARE AND BEING WACKOS ALLRIGHT.I WAS ONLY SAYING MY OPINION, DONT YOU GUYS GET THAT, IS THAT "TOO" HARD TO UNDERSTAND, I ONLY SAID A FEW TIMES. HAVE A GOOD DAY

RE: Africa Hunting
 

RandyA

Ditto to all that you said. In addition, many camps that have meat that is not eaten by hunters, the camp staff, or local residents is sold to meat packing houses, which resell the meat to various food outlets.

Mybigredford

Not only do hunters and local residents eat the meat but it is also sold to, and consumed by the general public. That makes African hunting is no different than elk hunting or the slaughter of cows in our country that are consumed by the general public. Hunting in Africa also creates jobs e.g. trackers, skinners, camp staff, ph's... and brings money into the particular country's economy - just as in the U.S.

Ant

RE: Africa Hunting
 

Just browsing and could not help but notice the heated discussion going on here. I would have to say I have no desire to take a Zebra or giraffe but I would give up alot for a shot at a Kudu, cape buffalo, or a eland. I hope one day to pack up my father and go on a hunt in Africa. Living in Texas though I am but a few hours away from many ranches where I can hunt oryx, sable, nilgai and many other exotic animals. I personally try to go on a hunt every summer for axis, sika, fallow or some other kind of animal just to try and stay on top of the game.

RE: Africa Hunting
 

Dear All

Thank you for your lively and sometimes, heated debate.

My name is Clement C. Victor and I started this discussion. It is interesting to hear the different opinions, though. I am professional hunter and outfitter in Africa. I have hunted from a very young age and have an intense love for nature as well as the exitement of the hunt.

I will catagorically answer the questions that has come up on this discussion. On this, you can in return ask some more questions regarding my answers or some other questions.

I want to ask you as a gentleman not to insult or bring someone else down in this discussion. Everyone has a right to his/her opinion and in the process, help eachother.

1. If you want to have a look at some pictures of Buffalo, you can have a look at my webpage www.users.lantic.net/victorhunt .
2. I have taken so many different species that it is hard to say which species is the most interesting. All animals are unique in their own way. Every single hunt, and I suppose it is like that in non-African countries as well, are unique. Every hunt is situated in a different setting and every situation differ. That makes my job so interesting.
3. Hunting in general, has become quite expensive in South Africa and for that matter, even in the rest of Africa. I do however offer non-trophy hunting in South Africa where the client pays cost for the game and a very reduced daily rate.
4. Yes, you always eat of the meat that you hunt. Well, I say this because I always let my clients eat of the animal that they have taken. I do not know if all outfitters do that though.
5. I do not know what the prices for hunting in other European countries or the Americas are, but I have heard some clients say that it is cheaper to hunt in South Africa.
6. Yes, Hippos are hunted a lot in Africa. I can not say why it is not promoted that much. It is definitely a very dangerous animal and the meat is very good to eat. This is a matter of taste and in my opinion, I prefer some other "land animals" rather than Hippo. Hunting them depends what the situation are e.g. dam, river, lake. If hunting them on land, the best is to go early in the morning when they start moving back to the water after feeding on land at night. This is very dangerous but very exciting. The advantage of this however, is that if they end up in the water from a bad shot, the fermenting grass makes it float, quiete quickly after it died. Shooting it in the water, especially in a strong flowing river, it is another matter and you could easily loose it. I prefer to hunt it on land. Remember that the client pays for the trophy, eventhough the professional hunter will do his best to recover the animal, it can sometimes get lost. This causes an unhappy client and an unhappy safari.
7. I will try and explain the matter of meat utelization as follows. I will only handle government concessions in other African countries, since South Africa is a different matter as the land and animals is privately owned:
If you are a concession holder, you are allowed to utelise some of the trophy's meat for camp cooking. By law, the rest and most of the meat must go to the local community. They usually smoke or just dry the meat because there is no other forms of preservation. All animal meat are utelised. It might sound odd, but there are some Africans (very few) that do eat Baboon and even Leopard meat. I have never seen or heard of some of them eating Lion or Hyaena meat though. It could also be that there could be a spiritual conatation to this. You must remember that every concession get a quota of game that are allowed to be hunted per year. Even though the law is strictly enforced on this, there is stil a lot of poaching going on all over Africa and unfortunately, this is very difficult to enforce, since the areas are vast stretches of land and still very wild.

Well. that just about wraps it up. This is just a short answer to the questions and I can elaborate a lot more but for now this should do. Please feel free to ask more questions. I will try and answer them to the best of my ability and as clear as possible. Thank you all for the interest in Africa.

RE: Africa Hunting
 

Who and what determines if uneaten meat, by humans, is waste? I argue this all the time. Here in Wyoming the law was changed 5 years ago, stating that you only have to take the four quarters and the back straps of big game animals. Is the rest waste? Not in my opinion. The meat left laying and guts, feeds, coyotes, bears, lions, all kinds of varmits and birds. I highly doubt they think it is waste! When I see a dead animal, I see food for many wild creatures, and some of those creatures don't have to kill another live animal to eat. So in a sense you saved one by shooting one.

RE: Africa Hunting
 

RandyA, i agree with you on that one.

RE: Africa Hunting
 

I agree. Difficult to say who determines it! Luckily we do not have these laws in South Africa and even in the rest of Africa, that I know of. Nothing gets wasted, everything is utelised. In a natural environment in Africa, there is more than enough for scavengers to eat and predators get their share as well.

RE: Africa Hunting
 

I knew we could find some common ground!

RE: Africa Hunting
 

Thanks a lot Victor for your willingness to share your knowledge of a place, I'm sure, most of us would like to experience.

Two questions if you don't mind

you said the animals in South Africa are privately owned--Is that by individual ranchers? if so, are those ranches self contained or are the animals free to roam wherever? how big are these areas? (if they are independant of each other) Is there a standard price on a particular species or does it also depend on the area?

would you catagorize the overall hunting in Africa---better, worse, or the same over the last many years?

Are there any marked increases or decreases in any particularly notable species. It seems like I see more elepaht hunts in recent years on those safari tv programs, but perhaps not. I know when I was a pup, I subscribed to magazines about safari hunting and the elephants in those pictures (as I remember) seemd to have much bigger tusks that the ones I see today---maybe that's cause I'm bigger:D:D

Sorry that was more than two questions

thanks again
hb

RE: Africa Hunting
 

MBRF- Just for the record I would like to say that I didn't call you uneducated, I said your opinion was uneducated, and it was. You openly addmitted that you didn't know much about African hunting. Maybe you should have asked how the system works before looking down your nose at those who take part in it. It is obvious that at least a good portion of the meat from the animals shot over there is utilized, that is a good thing. I, like you, do not take any great pleasure in shooting game that I don't intend to eat, but that doesn't mean that legaly shooting game solely for sport is wrong. Thousands of hunters here in the US plink at prairie dogs and chase coyotes, but you would be hard pressed to find a good recipe for either critter. Just because you don't think it's right to hunt animals you don't intend to eat doesn't mean it's not ok to do so, as long as it's legal. Personally I could never go on a bear hunt with dogs. To me it just doesn't seem fair, but for some it's perfectly exceptable. I don't think these hunters are unethical, I just think they're different than me, and that's fine. As hunters, there are so many people and groups who are against us, the last thing we need is to have fighting among each other. Remember, you and I are on the same team!

RE: Africa Hunting
 

Hi there hb,

Thank you for the kind words.

Yes, we do not have government concession areas in South Africa, even though Nature Conservation now hands out tenders for very controlled hunting in some game parks. This is very strictly controlled and a very limited amount of species are awarded. The farms are self contained, meaning that it is quite big areas where the game are free to roam. It is however fenced with high game fences and the ecology needs to be well managed so that you do not get to many of one species or to many animals for the stretch of land that you own. The size of these farms differ. Some are as small as 400 hectares but can go up to 5000 hectares or even bigger. I prefer to hunt on not less than 1500 hectares. On the smaller farms, you obviously would not find a huge variety of species and much less game.

There is no standard price, although there seem to be a norm where game farmers would compare their prices with the other farmers in the area. The prices of species also differ from area to area. Where a certain species occur naturally, you would obviously find the best trophies as well as a cheaper price e.g. in the Northern Cape, Springbok would be less costly than in the Northern Freestate OR Nyala, less costly in Northern Kwa Zulu Natal than in the Limpopo Province. Game auction prices also affects the market somewhat. On a well managed gamefarm, the owner would take off his trophy animals, which is in most cases the males and bring in "new blood", bought at game auctions. The prices of species increases every year. It is not measure by this but do affect the general game prices. Since you put in "new blood" it will take about 3 to 5 years before you will get good trophies again, from your initial stock. So,yes, prices do differ according to area.

I would say that trophy quality has decreased a bit, but hunting in general has increased. There are more and more livestock farmers converting to game farming in South Africa. One of the reasons are that they get a bigger income from this, even though hunting as an income is mostly seasonal. They do not have the cover cost as with livestock, like dipping and innoculation etc. Game tend to be more drought resistant than livestock and less prone to disease. Regarding general hunting in Africa; I would say the same but since there are mostly concession areas, the picture changes a bit. Due to civil war and turmoil in a lot of African countries, the hunting in those countries has suffered a bit. War and economic strugle in the rest of the world also affects the hunting bussines and tourism as a whole.

I would say that in South Africa, certain species are more on the increase due to conservation and game farming. Not all game farms in South Africa go for hunting, some only go for eco tourism and due to this, a lot of species are introduced to areas where they have been wiped out. In Africa, in general, I can not say what process they use to determane the species count. They do however have some form of control on species; just a certain quota on certain species are awarded for hunting per year. If my memory serves me correctly, I think that Lion hunting is closed in Botswana at the moment. This shows that there is some form of determaning game numbers. They have made mistakes in the past though, one African countrey stopped Elephant hunting for a number of years and only realised their mistake when the damage has been done. The Elephant population has increased so much that they devestated some of the forested parts of the countrey.

Yes, as I said, it would be very unlikely to take a trophy that would reach the number 1 or 2 Rowland Ward record. This is not impossible though. The hunting areas in Africa are huge and, with a lot of luck, you might still find that exceptional trophy. I would say that the decrease in trophy size is also due to hunting and poaching. There were so many hunter that passed through Africa through the years that the game do not reach their ripe old age before they are hunted and therefore the trophy size decreases. This is just my opinion and should not be taken as a rule of thumb. These are things that I have experienced and seen with all my travellings through Southern Africa.

I would conclude in saying that hunting is alive and well in Africa and that there is still a very good future for hunting and conservation on our continent.