idahoelkinstructor

Maineguide5424, holy crap you are full of it. Its stupid attitudes like you have that brought the wolves here in the first place. I have been born and raised in Idaho and I tell ya that I dislike the wolves and I have never lived permanently in a big city, I did serve a mission for my church for 2 years in L.A. As far as being successful well thats a bunch of crap too. I want you to call the Idaho Outfitters and Guides Association (208-342-1438) and ask them why so many outfitters guideing in central Idaho have closed up shop in the last 5 years. I am sure its just because they became lousy hunters and guides, even though most of them have had excellent bussiness going back 40 plus years or more. I guess even though I will turn 31 this year and have 10 bulls and a few cows under my belt that I too must just not know how to hunt because I am changing areas to get away from the damn wolves. I promise you that when you see your favorite area become elkless because of the wolves then will will see them in a different light too? And if you don't then I am guessing that you are just a anti hunter in wolf's clothing.

Christine B I have read you past posts and I know where you stand, I have said this before but I want you to know that I and most of the local hunters here in Idaho, Montaina and Wyoming don't want to totaly wipe them off the face of the earth or even here in the lower 48. But we want to be able manage them. Right now there are over 400 wolves in from central Idaho to southen Idaho alone. Thats not counting any of the yellowstone wolves in East Idaho that bounce between wyoming and Idaho in and out of yellowstone park. Just looking a 400 wolves alone they each kill 1.5 elk per week and yes I have said that before too. That figure BTW comes from our own Fish&Wildlife service. Its doesn't take a rocket scientist to add the numbers and figure out that an area can and will be depleated and hurt by wolves. Yes I agree they will not kill every elk but they can and do kill many elk. And the elk numbers do drop to a very low unhuntable % thats left. I'll be very honest,,,, I am so angry and pissed because I have seen it first hand!!!! But yet I then have other people try to tell me that because I don't have a degree in wildlife from some major univerisity that I just don't know what I am talking about and I am only seeing a little picture. I'll promise you and others I'll fight like hell to get the wolves delisted, and hopfully with my and others efforts it will be enough so that my kids and your kids will be able to enjoy elk hunting too in the great state of Idaho! I agree and fear its true what ElkampMaster said that in 20 or so years we might look back at now and say wow I wish it could be like the good old days of elk hunting again.

ELKampMaster

Rather,
Voting for 11 more years of the same, along with some hoped for promises of "we'll do better", eh!

Given the track record over the last 11 years, and the current ongoing slaughter of fine game, good luck with that. Net, net bottom line I vote for the elk and the moose --- while there is still time, and I have no faith whatsoever in the government on this matter.

ChristineB,
From the pro-wolf side, I would trust your input further than anyone’s thus far --- it appears to come from the heart and not from the scientific/statistical mumbo jumbo; however, it is likely that we will have to respectfully agree to disagree on this one as IMHO, time has run out.

Wolf killer

Sure is funny how a great majority of the people who love wolves (99.9%) don't live around them?
Does the thought of wolves roaming free in the west make you feel all warm & fuzzy inside?
Wolves have had a major impact on some ranchers in my area. Elk & deer populations are on the decline.

I just wish we the people could manage or big game populations with good sound science & smokeless powder. Not emotions.

rather_be_huntin

I'm not saying there isn't a problem because I believe there is. All I'm trying to say is put the blame where the blame is due. I still feel "the wolf is a super predator and will eat all the deer and elk" argument just doesn't hold water. Every post I see from you on this subject is headed that direction. The problem is the wolves master, not the wolves themselves.

I'll tell you something else too. You have a lot better chance of the government de-listing them and turning management over to states than you do of the government ok-ing wiping them out. So the best way to help out the suffering elk herds and get these things de-listed and start getting populations in check.

CalNewbie

I hope we've kept the receipt. Maybe we get store credit?

Except for those you kill and eat of course....

Levity aside, here's another example of how a full ecosystem has serendipitous benefits to other creatures in the wild kingdom:

From the LA Times:

After a 30-year struggle, grizzlies are multiplying throughout Yellowstone National Park as another top predator — the gray wolf — has helped build the bear population in a surprising way.

The numbers tell the success of grizzly bear restoration: About 650 bears roam the Yellowstone region today — up from roughly 200 when the animal was first protected under the Endangered Species Act in 1975 — and bears have expanded their range by 40%, says Chuck Schwartz, federal scientist and head of the Interagency Grizzly Bear Study Team.

Yet as robust as the recovery has been, new threats could affect the animals in the future. So many grizzlies roam Yellowstone that young bears search for new territory outside the park. Sometimes they kill livestock on surrounding private land, prompting ranchers and their political allies to seek removal of the bear's protected status.

But others say the bears should remain protected because emergent threats to their food supply could undermine the progress of the last three decades.

Grizzlies must put on fat to fuel a winter slumber that lasts about five months. Although bears have broad tastes, the kind of fat required to pull off the big sleep comes from less than a handful of high-protein sources.

Carcasses of winterkill elk and newborn calves provide food in spring. In summer, bears switch to native cutthroat trout spawning in dozens of Yellowstone streams as well as army cutworm moths that migrate en masse from farms to the blooms of the alpine tundra. In fall, whitebark pine nuts provide high-protein, fat-rich seeds.

Yet elk populations are down from a high of 10 years ago due to drought and more predators. Infestations of blister rust and bark beetle threaten whitebark pine nut production, which is erratic in the best of times. Biologists say lake trout that anglers illegally introduced to Yellowstone Lake and whirling disease have reduced cutthroat trout populations.

Enter the gray wolf, an unexpected source of grizzly aid. Since 33 wolves were introduced to the park in 1995 — they number 170 today — bears have developed the habit of stealing their kills. John Varley, director of Yellowstone's Center for Resources, the park's science branch, says wolves provide food for at least 12 species, including bears, bald eagles and some beetles.

"The one thing we totally underestimated was how many other mouths [they] would feed," Varley says.

"In the Pelican Valley [of central Yellowstone], it's not if a bear will take a kill, but when," says Doug Smith, Yellowstone's wolf project director. "Every documented ungulate killed by a wolf pack in the last five years has been taken over by a grizzly."

Smith says that the highest number of grizzlies ever seen on wolf kills — not just in the Pelican Valley, but throughout the park — was at a time when the whitebark pine nut crop failed.

Park wildlife biologist Kerry Gunther agrees that wolf kills may be an important food source, "especially in spring, when there isn't always a lot to eat. We've actually seen bears trailing the wolf packs."

Adult male grizzlies benefit the most. Young bears can't fend off a wolf pack, and sows with cubs are reluctant to approach wolves to protect their young. Even so, wolves don't always consume an entire carcass, and females and cubs sometimes get the leftovers. In the future, Gunther will study whether sows have more young or begin having cubs at a younger age as a result.

The grizzly's uncanny ability to adapt may prove sufficient to overcome changes to diet and environmental conditions. And nothing demonstrates their power of opportunism better than the arrival of the new predator on the block.

CalNewbie

And if that wasn't enough, here's something from MSNBC on controlling deer populations.

In Friday’s edition of the journal Science, McGraw and colleague Mary Ann Furedi concluded that natural, slow-growing ginseng, as well as valuable forest herbs, "are likely to become extinct in the coming century" if deer keep grazing at current rates.

One solution that he believes will ensure the herb’s survival is to reintroduce mountain lions, wolves or other natural predators to the Appalachians.

“Nature is out of balance here because we’ve killed off the top predators, so the obvious solution is to restore them,” McGraw said. “But obviously, that’s not going to be everyone’s choice.”

Curtis Taylor, chief of the West Virginia Division of Natural Resources’ wildlife section, called it a “totally unrealistic” suggestion.

“That would be sociological suicide,” he said. “Look at what’s going on out West with the reintroduction of wolves. There are hundreds of thousands of acres there with no people, and people are fighting it. I wouldn’t even dream of proposing to people that we reintroduce mountain lions.”

CalNewbie

Here's something to support your thought:

The main factor influencing elk mortality turns out to be severe weather. (Journal of Wildlife Management, Vol 65). In 1997 when the elk were weakened by an unusually harsh winter, wolves killed 26% of those they tried to catch. The following year, when the weather was milder the elk were healthier and the wolves' success rate dropped to 15%. Recent mild weather has allowed the elk population to increase, even know the wolf population has also grown (Levy, S New Scientist, issue 2367). Elk are undoubtedly the wolves' primary prey, but are unlikely to be eaten unless the elk are too sick, hungry, old or young to defend themselves. It has been found that healthy elk are very good at protecting themselves against wolves. In fact, several wolves in the park have died of wounds inflicted by slashing elk hooves or antlers. (Levy, S New Scientist, issue 2367)

Alsatian

CalNewbie: RE Journal of Wildlife Management brief. Reality check. Some of the folks reporting their experiences are saying elk are eradicated from some of their hunting areas. This doesn't gibe with "elk numbers increasing." Is the point that elk numbers are increasing . . . in places not frequented by wolves? This would, of course, be irrelevant and more than disingenuous on the part of the report to suggest otherwise. Also, if the wolves are less successful when Elk are healthier, does this mean less elk are killed or that the wolves just have to work harder for their meal? Nothing I heard of this report gave me comfort. Additionally, the dates discussed seemed to have been 1997 and 1998, fully six years ago.

I admit I know precious little about this topic. I'm trying to find out about it. I stirred up this trouble because I had read on another forem that the sky was falling, the wolf was going to destroy elk hunting. I wanted to get information and find out what people here knew. So far I am not persuaded that the wolves are good in any sense, and certainly not good without management. On the topic of management, I'm not sure what good hunting wolves as predators will do if they are as stand offish as some have said they are.

ELKampMaster

Cal, of course as a hunter I pay, kill, and eat the game I take. That is how it works and has worked over the course of decades to create the largest elk herd in the world right here in Colorado. If I quit hunting and paying in fees to CDOW our elk and moose programs will be adversely affected.

I assumed (silly me), that most sportman understood how this has worked.
By 1900 absent regulated hunting and with the presence of commercial harvesting, game populations were devastated. Laws were passed and it was on the backs of sportman's licenses and fees that the game populations were built back up through game managememt. For example, four hunters buy licenses, one hunter kills an elk, the state takes all the money from all four hunter's license fees and uses it to manage the herds and resources so that the benefit exceeds the drain for an overall net gain. No other group in American society in spite of their claims to the contrary have stepped forward to fund wildlife as generously.

Unlike the wolf, the hunter provides a net positive contribution; however, it took decades to get to where we "were" at. Yes, Colorado and Montana have gotten a fair bit of my money over the years; however, I always felt it was for a good cause. I don't hunt year around, I don't thrill kill, and I (and my offspring) kill in accordance to the CDOW's projections for population control.

Now with a seemingly whimsical roll of the dice, the USFW has chosen to gamble those decades of progress on the introduction of a trendy new specie to call their own, as they appeared to be bored with the more "ordinary stuff." Unlike hunters, the wolves do not bring in any money to the states to help further propagate the prey species (like a fee paying hunter does), in fact, wolves are draining resources away from Elk and Moose programs while at the same time literally "eating them for lunch." [Aside: You'd swear the USFW must have helped in planning the Iraq post war period, in either case it appears the planners can't see straight forward problems coming until it bites them right in the arse.]

I side with the elk and the moose, and that is the long and the short of it.

idahoelkinstructor

I find it so funny that when we hunters who have been around the wolves and see that they kill for fun. Then leave a carcass untouched, are told either we are liars or that we don't know what were talking about even though we have witness it first hand, because were biased and uneducated. I have been told by pro wolf supports that wolves would never do that and will always pick the bones clean at all times. But yet when the pro wolf people want to make a argument for the wolf bennefitting other animals such a grizzly bear. Then they somewhat admit that wolves will leave a carcass. Come on get the story strait! Thats half of the problem, its just a story on their behalf, a story that can be changed at their will to suit their needs.

CalNewbie, couldn't the drop in success be due to that their were so many elk killed by the wolves the year before? Humm I wonder!!!!! I know that if you go back in time into parts of the Lemhi zone in Idaho where I have hunted. And did this study that you would find a lot less elk kills by wolves now than a few years ago. Why because they have already done the damage! WOW imagine that humm. CalNewbie the more I read your posts the more I realise you belong in Huntington Beach CA with your delusional anti hunter ideas. If you do elk hunt or hunt at all which I am starting to doubt then man you need to wake up and realize the truth.