Wolves: problem or not?
02-12-2005, 07:13 AM
#41
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location:
Posts: 6,357
RE: Wolves: problem or not?
I believe that the concept is: Wolves, like all wildlife have a right to exist in a wild state, this right is no way related to their known value to mankind, it derives from the right of all living creatures to co-exist with man as part of the natural ecosystems.
Your post is very thoughtful and responsive to my questions. With respect to the quoted text -- which I do not attribute to be your position, necessarily -- I don't buy it. There is no right of wildlife. Under what construction do animals have rights? Being protected by law is NOT the same as having a right. A right may be said to be something to which one has a just claim. Animals are in no position to assert claims for justice or just treatment. Animals are not endowed with the faculty of choice (the appetitive faculty is distinct from the faculty of choice) which is necessary for moral or just action, and without the capacity for just action, I don't see animals having any stature in questions of justice. Animals just aren't moral peers of human beings. This kind of reasoning, the kind that leads to animals having rights, is fundamentally empty and ludicrous.
Whether it is prudent and good husbandry of our planet to reintroduce wolves to Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming is a reasonable question, but it is not a question of rights of animals as they have none.
02-12-2005, 07:31 AM
#42
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Iowa
Posts: 674
RE: Wolves: problem or not?
Wolf attacks Saskatchewan man
Last Updated Wed, 05 Jan 2005 08:49:25 EST
CBC News
REGINA - A man in Saskatchewan is recovering after being attacked by a timber wolf on New Year's Eve.
Fred Desjarlais was coming home from his job at Key Lake, about 550 kilometres north of Saskatoon, when the wolf lunged at him from the ditch.
Fred Desjarlais
Desjarlais said the wolf bit him several times on the back, arm, leg and groin.
He grabbed it around the neck and tried to wrestle it into submission. A busload of his co-workers showed up and helped chase the wolf away.
Desjarlais received stitches and was taken to hospital where he has been undergoing a series of rabies shots. The wolf was later shot and is being tested for rabies.
Desjarlais said he thinks the wolf was hungry and sick. It was limping when it approached him.
A Canadian gray (or timber) wolf. (CP photo)
"He wasn't a young, healthy one," Desjarlais said. "If he was he wouldn't have been there. He wouldn't have done what he did. It was just an older wolf that was doing what he had to do to survive and I just reacted, thank God, the way I did and survived it."
Last Updated Wed, 05 Jan 2005 08:49:25 EST
CBC News
REGINA - A man in Saskatchewan is recovering after being attacked by a timber wolf on New Year's Eve.
Fred Desjarlais was coming home from his job at Key Lake, about 550 kilometres north of Saskatoon, when the wolf lunged at him from the ditch.
Fred Desjarlais
Desjarlais said the wolf bit him several times on the back, arm, leg and groin.
He grabbed it around the neck and tried to wrestle it into submission. A busload of his co-workers showed up and helped chase the wolf away.
Desjarlais received stitches and was taken to hospital where he has been undergoing a series of rabies shots. The wolf was later shot and is being tested for rabies.
Desjarlais said he thinks the wolf was hungry and sick. It was limping when it approached him.
A Canadian gray (or timber) wolf. (CP photo)
"He wasn't a young, healthy one," Desjarlais said. "If he was he wouldn't have been there. He wouldn't have done what he did. It was just an older wolf that was doing what he had to do to survive and I just reacted, thank God, the way I did and survived it."
02-12-2005, 07:35 AM
#43
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Iowa
Posts: 674
RE: Wolves: problem or not?
Like it or not, man has now taken the place as the top predator within the world’s food chain, it’s now man’s responsibility to also step in to manage ALL wildlife populations to ensure healthy ecosystems for our future. “Natural Biological Management” that was taught in colleges throughout the US in the 70’s has since been proven to be a very ineffective way to manage the ebb and tide of all wildlife populations. Only when radical, single focused groups are allowed to influence the management of a single species, is the system thrown off balance. The introduction of the grey wolf in the Idaho, Montana and Wyoming tri-state area is a grand example of how to mess up the balance of nature, not help it
02-12-2005, 12:28 PM
#44
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Raleigh NC USA
Posts: 352
RE: Wolves: problem or not?
Alsatian - You are correct, I don't hold the position of the quote you cited, I was just noting it as one of the accepted rationalizations for reintroduction. I think that the philosphy of the "right" that they're refering to is sort of an "innate" right that all creatures have. An animal has a "right" to live, we have a "right" to harvest them for our needs. Sort of a touchy-feely kind of philosophy of the animal kingdom.
Like you, I don't think that it "hold up". For instaance, we have plenty of rational for doing everything we can to eliminate mice, rats, etc. Perhaps its the fact that we have no real chance of ever succeeding that makes it a non-issue. Yet I can recall a newspaper column where someone complained to city hall that the city pest control was killing rats instead of trapping and relocating them.
I've been approaching the arguement from the other side. That is, now that they're back, what is the rational for removing them? Is improved hunting opportunities a sufficient motive? You started the thread asking fellow posters how wolves had impacted their hunting. I'm not disputing that there is an impact. While not trying to get anybodys blood boiling, it can be an emotional topic.
Like you, I don't think that it "hold up". For instaance, we have plenty of rational for doing everything we can to eliminate mice, rats, etc. Perhaps its the fact that we have no real chance of ever succeeding that makes it a non-issue. Yet I can recall a newspaper column where someone complained to city hall that the city pest control was killing rats instead of trapping and relocating them.
I've been approaching the arguement from the other side. That is, now that they're back, what is the rational for removing them? Is improved hunting opportunities a sufficient motive? You started the thread asking fellow posters how wolves had impacted their hunting. I'm not disputing that there is an impact. While not trying to get anybodys blood boiling, it can be an emotional topic.
02-13-2005, 08:15 AM
#46
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
RE: Wolves: problem or not?
If I knew where the last wolf in the lower 48 was, then I wouldn’t be on this Forum “talking” with you good folks….
Load him up, take him back to Hinton, Alberta where this mess started in 1994, turn him over to the old man who tried to warn the USFW what they were about to unleash “on the folks down South” and tell him…. You were right. We tried ‘em on for size and it wasn’t a good fit at all, we’d rather keep the fine game we have rather than make room for this thing.
I’m sure he is still up there just splitting a gut at our problems. And as for the wolf, well he could live out the rest of his days (assuming he came along peacefully) without worrying about being an endangered specie any more because in Canada there is NO SHORTAGE OF WOLVES (no shortage in Alaska either, they are thriving to excess, thank you).
Of course, that is just my opinion ---- however, I'm betting I have a innumberable elk and moose that love me for it (figuratively) and I simply care more for their welfare than the dream-quest of the lower 48 pro-wolf folks ---- and for me that is just kinda the long and the short of it.
EKM
Load him up, take him back to Hinton, Alberta where this mess started in 1994, turn him over to the old man who tried to warn the USFW what they were about to unleash “on the folks down South” and tell him…. You were right. We tried ‘em on for size and it wasn’t a good fit at all, we’d rather keep the fine game we have rather than make room for this thing.
I’m sure he is still up there just splitting a gut at our problems. And as for the wolf, well he could live out the rest of his days (assuming he came along peacefully) without worrying about being an endangered specie any more because in Canada there is NO SHORTAGE OF WOLVES (no shortage in Alaska either, they are thriving to excess, thank you).
Of course, that is just my opinion ---- however, I'm betting I have a innumberable elk and moose that love me for it (figuratively) and I simply care more for their welfare than the dream-quest of the lower 48 pro-wolf folks ---- and for me that is just kinda the long and the short of it.
EKM
02-14-2005, 10:58 PM
#47
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cedar Valley Utah
Posts: 977
RE: Wolves: problem or not?
ORIGINAL: ELKampMaster
If I knew where the last wolf in the lower 48 was, then I wouldn’t be on this Forum “talking” with you good folks….
Load him up, take him back to Hinton, Alberta where this mess started in 1994, turn him over to the old man who tried to warn the USFW what they were about to unleash “on the folks down South” and tell him…. You were right. We tried ‘em on for size and it wasn’t a good fit at all, we’d rather keep the fine game we have rather than make room for this thing.
If I knew where the last wolf in the lower 48 was, then I wouldn’t be on this Forum “talking” with you good folks….
Load him up, take him back to Hinton, Alberta where this mess started in 1994, turn him over to the old man who tried to warn the USFW what they were about to unleash “on the folks down South” and tell him…. You were right. We tried ‘em on for size and it wasn’t a good fit at all, we’d rather keep the fine game we have rather than make room for this thing.
Boomp boomp boomp.....Hello is thing on? Can I have your attention? EKM....yeah I see you in the back coloring and talking to your friends. Put the crayons down and listen for a second. Ok do I have your attention now? OK good.
The problem is not the wolves. The problem is the LEGISLATION. The wolves should be hunted and controlled. Right now they've got the secret service protecting them and that ain't right. ANY predator left unchecked will cause problems. Hell the cats were tearing up deer herds here in Utah due to over population and we upped the tags. So instead of packing up the wolves and telling some old Canadian he was right. Maybe we ought to take a pack to Washington to feed on a few politically correct dogs and cats. My guess is you'd see a hunting season real soon.
Legislation is the problem!!!!!
02-14-2005, 11:15 PM
#48
Super Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Roane Co. WV USA Member since 11/1999
Posts: 2,045
RE: Wolves: problem or not?
Flame me if you want however the Wolf does have a place in our environment....maybe I am living in a "dream world" I have studied wolves for over 30+ years. I know well what they are capable of, but rarely do unless they are introduced to it by MAN!! Todays society wants to embrase the wild they do have no clue about....that includes Elk, Bison, Deer, Wolves, Cougars, and hell....lets add in badgers, wolverines, porcipines, and the like of them! People do not care and they go at things blindly....it is not the animals fault!! Damn shame too!! But then I reckon my friends, so many just do not give a crap anymore...do not know how to balance their lives, yada, yada. I am not referring to you as I have a great respect for many of you....just people in general that think they know so very much. Live the life, and then tell their tales....
Walk with a "cat" walking beside you about 10 -15 feet away for several miles on a full moon night and learn, learn from the howls you hear from yotes and wolves....it is all a lesson.(I have experienced!) Yes, they are predators...yet so are we. They have every right the same as we do my friend to be here. JMHO.
And yes, if I needed to I could and would hunt them........nuff said from this lady....
Walk with a "cat" walking beside you about 10 -15 feet away for several miles on a full moon night and learn, learn from the howls you hear from yotes and wolves....it is all a lesson.(I have experienced!) Yes, they are predators...yet so are we. They have every right the same as we do my friend to be here. JMHO.
And yes, if I needed to I could and would hunt them........nuff said from this lady....
02-15-2005, 05:07 AM
#49
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location:
Posts: 50
RE: Wolves: problem or not?
Most of the hatred against wolves comes from people that don't really know how to hunt. They come from the city and expect a deer or elk will be behind every tree.
The wolf will never kill every elk in an area and man will never kill every wolf. The wolves will keep the elk and deer herd in check and healthy. Learn to live with them.
The wolf will never kill every elk in an area and man will never kill every wolf. The wolves will keep the elk and deer herd in check and healthy. Learn to live with them.
02-15-2005, 07:45 AM
#50
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location:
Posts: 6,357
RE: Wolves: problem or not?
Maineguide5424: The wolves will not kill every elk. Live to learn with them. I don't find that very comforting. Couldn't the same thing be said of market hunting: it won't kill all animals. Once the cost of bagging boat loads of ducks exceeds the rising price that the wealthy will pay for them in restaurants, then market hunting will stop, problem solved. In fact, this would seem to apply to hunting in general. Just let people go at it. They won't kill all the elk, bighorn sheep, mountain goats. They will just reduce the numbers to such a low population and to such remote regions that the numbers of hunters willing to undergo the trouble to bag them will regulate the numbers. Brilliant! Why didn't we think of this before?
Christine: No disrespect intended, but I don't have a clue what point you were trying to make. Can you order your thoughts into a series of syllogisms or something ressembling logic? Or are you just saying "I vote for wolves. My feelings are with wolves." Just sharing feelings does not require supporting arguments or a road map of how you came to your conclusions, but I assume you are doing more than just sharing your feelings. Help us out. What is your point and why should we buy it?
Christine: No disrespect intended, but I don't have a clue what point you were trying to make. Can you order your thoughts into a series of syllogisms or something ressembling logic? Or are you just saying "I vote for wolves. My feelings are with wolves." Just sharing feelings does not require supporting arguments or a road map of how you came to your conclusions, but I assume you are doing more than just sharing your feelings. Help us out. What is your point and why should we buy it?