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New direction! Too bad too!
Well, we've tried to be generous, but some just ruin it for the others to follow....
It's been an interesting journey over time.... We've taken folks from this forum. We've taken first time hunters and a kid (rewarding for about 10 minutes). We've taken folks who have never slept on the ground before. We've taken folks who seemingly don't know the meaning of hard, strenuous work (as a pre-condition). We've taken folks who've never hunted elk before, arrive and think they'll tell us how things will be done. We've taken the "short cut" artists (show up late, grab elk, and leave early). We've taken folks that don't know the difference between "entertainment" and "adventure". One has to go thru too many "duds" to find the "good ones". Most these folks we'eve dealt with thru the years need to go back to deer hunting in the local patch or maybe varmit hunting or maybe just bench rest target shooting --- something fits in a Sunday afternoon and allows the car and home to be close by. Well, thru the course of time the "cream does rise to the top" and after meeting with my senior elk camp members and discussing what we like, what we don't like, and what would be more worthwhile, we've "closed ranks" and decided to chart a new direction.... We are going to a smaller group of hardened, capable, work loving, horse wise, saavy elk hunters. Some young, some old, some rural, some urban, some non-resident. As for the rest of them, well, "good bye and happy trails to ya all". There will be 4 to 6 of us and we will entertain ONE outsider every other year or so, even if our numbers drop to 2 or 3 or 4 in any given year. If I was an outfitter, then I would charge every cent they charge and MORE! We are soooo looking forward to next year! :):):):):):):) Just venting I guess [>:][>:].... any of you went thru anything like this? [:'(][:'(] EKM |
RE: New direction! Too bad too!
i am lucky in this aspect
when we loose a hunter in or party it is a great loss to the hole group we all hunt in much the same way. we hunt hard usually on foot and we may venture up to 5 miles into the back country in a day if someone does not make it back for the night we worry very little knowing that we all could survive for a day or two in the back country(most of us have) when we drop an elk we have horses to pack or we all gang up and get it out on our backs it is a great camp and i wouldnot trade it for anything in the world this year was the last year for one of the hunters in camp (he is moving to CO and i can tell you we already miss him in camp |
RE: New direction! Too bad too!
The new hunters seem to peter-out after the 1st year. We hunt hard & it seems to be too much work for most.
As far as this board----I'm a little miffed. I've been PM quite a few times over the past years. I've answered questions galore. Then after they go on the hunt----not a peep from them. No---I got one, had a good time, you were right on the weather, etc. Just get pumped for information---then go to heck. I guess good manners & being polite are things in the past. |
RE: New direction! Too bad too!
Colorado, not sure I have ever heard from you directly, but I may have read a post of yours in the archive. I am very thankful for any and all information. Would never want anyone to think otherwise. I don't always take suggestions, but I will always listen and then use judgement for the best course of action. I have read many a good piece of advice on this site and hope to read some more.
EKM..... I feel ya. Doesn't have to be a hunting trip either. I have found that any time you undertake an endeavor, the right mix of individuals is essential. Be it a ski trip, Vegas trip or hunting trip. Whether on our lease here, or on our trips to your great state, we try to make sure we are all on the same page. But even then things oft go awry.....whole best laid plans.......mice and men sort of thing. Can be very discouraging. Seems that as long as the core of the group is solid, all will be fine. Not sure I would ever be talked into the "taking stranger" thing as you guys have. Need to know that either they are with us or not. Hope things get better with your new guidelines. Maybe just a little time with like minded souls will rejuvenate you. |
RE: New direction! Too bad too!
99% of my hunting is done solo. Camp solo, scout solo. I'll hook up with a buddy or two a few times a season, but I prefer to fly alone. Some people I know won't even go hunting alone, don't understand it.
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RE: New direction! Too bad too!
ELKampMaster I feel your pain. I have been burned three times before. I will never take anyone other than family with me to my honey holes. Live & learn.[:o]
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RE: New direction! Too bad too!
Good Luck with your new direction.
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RE: New direction! Too bad too!
Some people I know won't even go hunting alone, don't understand it. i have bivowac (sp?) camped a few times but i find the night life to be better spent BSing with friends and family also my wife goes nuts when i go out by myself for longer than a day or two and back to the campfire to talk about the days and years past always makes for a great night |
RE: New direction! Too bad too!
EKM---I'm going to be completely honest here in the impression I get when I read your thread here and some of the problems you've come across with various members of your hunting group. You seem to have rules and standards that ones have to meet before they're excepted in your group. In other words you're not letting folks be themselves, they have to be someone they're not, to try and fit in to your so called "members" only group. (my term) Please do not take offense, I mean none.
I feel that's an uncomftorable feeling and not enjoyable at all to be around. Now no one likes a lazy bum around camp, and I for one have never seen one or had one in our base camp of 14 years, but by the same token I don't expect others to do or be the same as everyone else in camp, we are there for two reasons, have fun, and harvest elk!! I've seen a lot of men and youths come and go over the years, and as I look back I'd be more than happy to welcome them back a little at a time. Many have come from this site as well as others. Granted, most of this is under bowhunting conditions. (some rifle) If you're a bowhunter I think most hunters come to camp in a different frame of mind, they know it takes a lot of hard work coupled with a sincere desire to hunt and harvest an elk with a bow and are willing to do just that. And yes, we have a hell of a lot of fun doing it. So far we must consider ourselves lucky I guess, because we've been surrounded over the years with a great bunch of guys. I'd say at least 80 different guys 6 of who are regular each year. Maybe we are always to busy packing elk meat out on our backs to get on each others nerves!!! (big grin) Remember it's not a job, sure we all want to be successful but at the same time you've got to have fun and make it enjoyable for others when they're down for whatever reason!! Good Luck and I hope you find the right combonation and enjoy the same fellowshipping that we have!! ElkNut1 |
RE: New direction! Too bad too!
EKM:
It sounds like you have been doing your thing for many years. If your experience leads you to change your routine, I bet there is good reason for it. I detect that you change with some regret. It sounds like you have gone out of your way to try to provide opportunities for Elk-ignorant hunters to learn from more experienced Elk hunters and to initiate first time hunters. Having done your part to nurture the sport, I don't think you should feel bad to now pursue the sport with a more closed group. |
RE: New direction! Too bad too!
elknut1,
What is your base camp set up like? Is it right near where you live? EKM |
RE: New direction! Too bad too!
ekm---We have a great base camp, like mentioned for 14yrs in the exact spot. Although we rarely hunt out of camp, it's a basic elk hunting camp and a lot more!!!! It consist of a 16x20 -- and two 12x14 walltents, all with woodstoves. All the cooking gear is in the biggest tent along with 4 different cot-bed setups. I stay in one of the 12x14 tents, the one I stay in also has 4 cot-bed setups, the 3rd being mostly a utility type storing tent.
Three of us live within an hour to hour & half of Base camp! My brother in-law comes out of Boise which is aprox. 3-1/2 hrs away. Two others come from Florida, they usually hunt the last week of the bow season. It's common to have 2 or 3 differnt ones to show up a couple days and hunt here and there in addition to us. I can honestly say we all have a great time!! It's a sad time when camp has to be taken down for the year!! Thanks-ElkNut1 |
RE: New direction! Too bad too!
I have heard the saying trying to find a hunting partner is more difficulilt than finding a wife. And that might be true. I understand where ELKampMaster and Wolf killer is comming from. I myself have been burned twice by friends, and yet I have found a good dependable hunting partner/friend since I have been burned. I still invite other people to hunt with me. My wife thinks that I am nuts and reminds me of my two friends that burned me. But I am a people person, and half the fun of hunting for me is shareing it with friends and family. I will also admit that my very best hunting partner is my wife. I also can't wait until my kids are old enough to hunt with me. One thing I hate is when someone is invited on our hunt, that they turn around invite their friends/family. Without asking me or someone else in our hunting party. That is a flat out rude and wrong IMO. It doesn't matter if we are hunting with horses in the backcountry, where there is not room for a unexpected guest, or guests. Or that base camp is a camp trailer and a white wall tent and room can be made. I will not let that happen and will ask who ever I invited that they need to please leave, and camp/hunt somewhere else with their friend. Mabe that is rude but its one of my rules, and I tell it to all of my hunting partners.
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RE: New direction! Too bad too!
My wife is my top hunting partner. Has been for many years. I used to hunt with two of her brothers before we ever starting dating. I met my wife when She was six and I was nine. There are not many people I have known longer. Still nobody I would rather spend time with. Hunting, working and all the rest. I have just maybe three or four other hunting friends. Many of my old hunting friends have gone on to the happy hunting grounds. I was the youngest of the original bunch that I began hunting with.
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RE: New direction! Too bad too!
elknut1,
Wow, Sounds like the camp may be set up for a fairly long time and then people kinda come and go in a "staggered" fashion. Is it on private property so you don't have to worry about your stuff? I may not understand, but.... if you don't hunt out of a camp, then where do you hunt out of? --- do a woodsy overnight so you can hunt the "honey hole" with ease the next morning? In terms of logistics.... Who sets it all up? Who tears it down, packs it up, and takes it home, cleans it up, makes repairs, and then stores it until the next year? Just trying to understand a situation that appears to have been made "painless." EKM |
RE: New direction! Too bad too!
yeah it can suck. One year we took some peolpe with us (usually just family) elk hunting. Three to be exact. A couple and their 20ish son. It snowed pretty heavy and the parents decided to stay at the trailhead in their camper trailer and the kid rode w/ us for two days then left, while we spike camped and rode, hunted stalked, packed, walk, and hiked our butts off for two weeks. then, when we got 3 elk (me, my brother, and dad) they wanted 1/2 the meat as they had three of the six tags in camp!! My dad gave em about 50lbs of meat and told em that was all they got for sitting in a camper.
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RE: New direction! Too bad too!
ekm---No, we are not on private property, it's BLM land on public land, anyone can access it!! Yes we do set it up early, My son and I usually set the whole camp up everyear around Aug. 15th to Oct. 15th, sometimes a little later depending on a few friends that want to rifle hunt.
My son and I (Bowelkdown) go in around the 15th of Aug. and weed eat the entire camp area, about a 1/4 acre for tents and shootting lanes to practice with our bows out to 70yds, as the grasses can reach 3' in the area with ease. So yes, to retererate, my son and I set up the complete camp, and love doing it. As far as repairs, there are really nothing to speak of. We all contribute to getting wood and getting things stocked up! My son and I take care and store the smaller tents and my brother in-law takes care of the 16x20 tent. It works out great. We all work together, some do more than others but that's human nature. As far as where we hunt, we do it randomly. I pre-scout aprox. 15 different spots each year miles away from camp, so everyone knows about where they're going. We talk all this out nightly so who's ever in camp is not in the dark come morning. You have to remember that we hunt elk by vocialization, so it's easier to go out and locate and go from there. But hunting from camp is basically out of the question because of many other camps in the vicinity. Heh, but we have confidence in our abilities and it shows in our success. Our camp is a little different than yours that I've seen here on the site, we don't cut meat up in camp, we hang it, and whoever harvests it, then it's theirs, we don't split up meat. It's never been a problem, so I'm sure it'll stay that way!! Thanks--Paul |
RE: New direction! Too bad too!
NVMIKE,
IMHO, your dad was MORE than generous! Yep, that is the all-to-common cross section of what I've run into out there. They talk a good game, then comes the whimpy, clueless behavior. First comes the "I'm waiting for you to keep me entertained" attitude, next is the "I'm tired and I hurt all over [doesn't everyone?] so I need an exemption", followed by "Oh by the way, we want a 'full share' (or more) for our trouble before we head home early" and then finally "Good luck packing up camp, we changed our mind about participating in that part, as I've had a million and one (B.S.) items come up back home that I have to get back to attend to." (I bet they'd find a way to "handle it" if they had paid $3,500 for a hunt with an outfitter!) Most of that was before I wrote up how the set up, the camp, the hunt, the pack out, the butchering, the meat split and the tear down works and provide a copy in advance to everyone that goes and confirm with them that they understand it. Still run into too much of the "I'm special/different" B.S. and the "but, but, but ...." (I guess illiteracy/selective memory must be more widespread than I thought.) Ah well, problem solved, door closed, opportunity gone, adios, fin, nada.... As BeaverJack would say, "No more pink arsed mama's boys!" (PAMB's) Close ranks.... Less is more.... Everyone competent and pulling their own weight, what a concept..... ahhhhh! EKM |
RE: New direction! Too bad too!
elknut1,
"..... some do more than others but that's human nature...." The rules stiffened up real quick after that hose job. Haven't had that problem since. I would posit that bowhunters are, on balance, a more hardy/industrious lot than rifle hunters. By comparison rifle hunting is an easy, low skill, high tech, "magic wand"/"anyone can do it" way of taking an elk and IMHO tends to attract a less hardy/more impatient/"I want it now or I'm out of here" following.... Ah well, we'll see how it goes hunting with just the "Marines" next year. EKM |
RE: New direction! Too bad too!
It's been my experience that the bad apples seem to weed themselves out. Where we hunt, we have to pack the animals back to camp, and this job alone will weed out the "weak links" pretty quick. We had a guy ride up from N.M. with my brother. This guy got lucky and killed a nice 5x5. We all helped, actually did most of, the pack job. After they got back to N.M., the guy invited my brother over for 1 elk supper, and that was it, he kept the rest of the meat. He never paid for any gas or anything. Needless to say, he got weeded out after just one trip.
On the flip side of the "horror" stories, my family did invite three new guys this year, and it worked out great. It really helped that the three new guys also brought along 2 mules and a horse, so packing meat became a "fun" part of the hunt, instead of the "hard" part of the hunt. Everyone killed this year, 7 for 7, so Needless to say, they will be invited back for as long as they want to come along. I almost would've given up my trip to AK to elk hunt if I'd known how things were going to turn out, NOT!:) Sometimes you get lucky and find a few good apples in the bunch! |
RE: New direction! Too bad too!
EKM,
I understand your problem. Our moose hunting group started with 4 hunters and one of the group kept bringing in new members who basically were not serious at all about hunting. That group grew to the point that a group of 3 of us (the originals) broke away and will likely never hook up again. We are all still friends, just don't moose hunt together. My moose hunt is also 1 week of my annual vacation and I hate people who try and "invite themselves" on my vacation. I would never ask someone if I could tag along on thier vacation to Disney land or something similar. I digress, the group of remaining 3 have grown closer than family. We have in fact also purchased a deer hunt camp together. I have endured almost every hassle you describe and we have now thinned out the guys who roll in Sunday night and expect to be led to a game rich area the next morning with no effort or scouting at all. We are not outfitters. This year I made my first western hunt for antelope, I researched everything and set up the whole hunt but unfortunately my main hunting buddies could not make it so I went with 3 other aqaintences and it only reinforced the "HUNT WITH WHO YOU KNOW AND TRUST". I will not hunt with those clowns ever again. Our group dynamics are starting to change a little as now there are young sons who will start deer hunting next fall. I look forward to that as I consider them my nephews and they are great kids who think deer camp is HOLY GROUND and thier uncles are nothing short of GODS! Ha!!!! |
RE: New direction! Too bad too!
ekm---I hear ya!! Considering the size of your camp and the work you put into it, the least ones could do is help out in the take down process.--- I realize there are a few dead beats out there, and good partners are hard to find but don't give-up, there are some good folks out there!!
Once you do come across such ones, they're not only good hunting partners but life long friends, and who could ask for more!!! Good Luck! ElkNut1--Paul |
RE: New direction! Too bad too!
EKM - If you're so fed up with folks who have never hunted elk before, why spend time on a forum where the conversations are, for the most part, with folks interested in or learning about such pursuits? God forbid, there are those of us who look forward to the experience some day - the total experience: the investment of time and energy needed and warranted by these animals.
Your camp = your perogative. We'll be sure not to pester you with questions from non-experts. |
RE: New direction! Too bad too!
Grizz,
Big difference between casual BS on the internet versus actual "showtime in the field" with folks vacations, 1,000's of dollars, the risk of injury, and major physical requirements at play. One is "fairy tale land" and the other is the "real deal." We just got done with the "real deal" a 14 day remote/away from home high country elk hunt (it IS that time of year) so, oddly, that is what I'm talking about --- the issues I've brought up are a reality I've been dealing with AND if you read back thru the thread --- I'm not alone on this one though some folks have never ran into a slacker or a PAMB in their life. there are those of us who look forward to the experience some day - the total experience: the investment of time and energy needed and warranted by these animals. For now, I'm done recruiting. Got my group together and WE are SO relieved about it. Like one of my guys told me, "I'm getting a t-shirt made up for next year." "It's going to say, "I'm NOT your f***ing guide!" HIS words, not mine. You'd have to have been here to see what brought him to that point. Fortunately it/they won't be there next year. ================= Regarding asking non-expert questions.... Of course, feel free to post, I'd never discourage that (I don't think so anyway). I'll either ignore it (thus saving my time and aggravation) or give you as straight up an answer as I know how. Not going to sugar coat it though, there are plenty of folks here that will poo-poo the issues for you. Feel free to "kick in" the 'ignore' button if that helps your comfort level. Fair and balanced (or something like that) reporting, you decide, and its okay. EKM |
RE: New direction! Too bad too!
We'll be sure not to pester you with questions from non-experts. |
RE: New direction! Too bad too!
Not everybody has the same goals, objectives, and desire on a hunt. I don't consider these people any less or more of a hunter then myself. I don't really believe that there is a right way and a wrong wat to hunt elk, or any other animal for that matter. Some people do not consider it fun to hike around the mountains all day, and I'm ok with that. I'm not willing to judge anybody because their idea of what they want out of a hunt is different then mine. It always sucks when your out bustin butt and some dude is just sitting in his truck and gets out and shoots a nice bull, but so what? Really, I know in the long run I'll get my elk the way I want to. This is the reason I hunt alone, because everybody has there own way of hunting, I don't pretend to be better then those who wish to do it different. If it is legal and ethical, I'm not gonna complain about it.
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RE: New direction! Too bad too!
Iam in the same boat our first year out we were all green as green can be just deer hunters from IL. we new nothing about elk hunting or the mountains camps tents nothing .
Well there was eight of us I think the other guys had to high of expectaions. I dont know how but we killed a nice 5X6 by accident. I was hooked the moment I got out of the truck to make camp just wanted to see an elk that is it and did.(Iam a lifer) The next year it was just me and my boy hood friend Brent. So the next three years it was us two who did the foot work the learing the exploring the not killing we got ask why waist time money and not take an Elk what we have learned and experinced was worth much more then killing . Then we started taking elk getting close then hunting buddies come out of the wood work. So I take a few friends set them up put elk in there laps get them shots get camps set up To have them bitch if they arent seeing anything like your friend said EKM Iam not a F*&%^#ING guide So as of last year there are four of us the kind of guys you would want watching your back when the lead starts flying. They are good friends with the same drive I have live life and hunt hard! |
RE: New direction! Too bad too!
justhuntit all
Both been down about the same path. Good that you got your "worthy" group together. Cool. Next year I look forward to going with just the "marines". No more "public service". EKM |
RE: New direction! Too bad too!
Man, I still don't have anyone that I can really depend on as a "hunting partner" besides my dad, and thats it. We have applied for party hunts with people, and find them hunting with other people in the same vicinity as us because they knew where the big bucks were[:@] (only after telling us they couldn't hunt on Sundays)! I typically hunt on my own now, and I even have a hard time hunting with my dad, we just don't get along with each other, when he wants to do one thing, I another, etc (mainly because he is getting older and having a harder time getting around than I do, I can walk miles a day and not feel a thing, while he feels every step). Next year (if we can get tags), we plan to set up a good camp, but I still would rather hunt on my own and camp with the other people. I just like the independence of hunting on my own, I can do what I want, and don't have to worry about what everyone else wants to do (or can do). I just like the experience of getting out, and being in the wild, who cares that I harvest anything (though it is a good bonus). Just the challenge of going one on one against nature is satisfying enough as it is!!
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RE: New direction! Too bad too!
I hunt with a hardy group of guys. It sure is nice. We have had a couple of people who didn't pull their weight and they are not invited back. As far as setting up camp. It usually gets set up for about 3 solid weeks and gets tore down when no-one is there. It is a back pack camp. Meaning that we hand carried everything in. Nothing comes out. We have 3 , 55 gallon drums burried in the ground which contain everything from tents, tent heaters and cooking gear to solar showers. The food for the season gets taken in 2-3 weeks before the season starts. We usually split our meat between the people who pack it out. It is a 5 mile walk to the trailhead. It would be hard for me to do it all by my lonesome. Even though I have before. I have had 20-30 different people in the camp through the years. And only a couple have been bad eggs. I find that the bowhunters that I elk hunt with are usually a hardy bread and have a greater amount of patience than most. Good luck with your endeavors EKM.
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RE: New direction! Too bad too!
Elkcrazy8,
Sounds like a "hard core" (positive) group --- the right kind of "soldiers" to have. I think you are largely correct about bowhunters, their task is by definition going to be more difficult and bow hunters tend to "self-weed" way ahead of a remote/away from home elk hunt. On the other hand, high power rifles are virtually the "magic wands" of hunting; unfortunately they only enhance the hunter's killing ability --- not his/her mental toughness, durability, or persistence. ================ BTW, I've learned some good stuff from you and the way you hunt and we have it applied to our hunt: *** SPIKE CAMP CACHE: We created our first spike camp cache, this summer. When new folks help pack in to the cache during the summer it kind of lets you see what they've got --- get everyone a little sore and breathing hard, then sleep under the stars over night with a light tarp for shelter and live out of the pack. It made going back in to set up spike camp much easier and it was certainly nice not to have to pack out all the hardware we packed come the end of elk season. *** WATER COOLING: We take the heavy duty bags you mentioned in case we got too much elk down and it is WAY too warm that we can chill it/temporarily store it until we can get ithauled out to the main camp and the butcher table. It was quite warm and if our Nebraska hunters hadn't brought extra horses that didn't mind panniers, then we probably would have had to utilize your technique. Good info, much appreciated... EKM |
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