Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

Several major manufacturers make premium loads for the 45-70. Are you confident enough with the loads from Cor-bon, Garrett, and Buffalo Bore that you would hunt the powerful, huge, and fearless Cape Buffalo of Africa with a 45-70 lever action loaded with cartridges from one of the previously mentioned companies?

Thanks for your reply,
BoltAction

"Unless we protect the freedoms we enjoy, we will one day have no freedoms to enjoy."

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

if i had somebody with a bigger gun that i trusted with me, yes. otherwise, yes. :)

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

I wouldn't even consider the 45/70 for cape buffalo. What, are you crazy? If I get the opportunity to hunt cape buffs, I'm taking the bow!

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

Gotta agree with ArticBowMan on this one!

"Playing under the table and dreaming"

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

Arctic, if and when you ever do that can I take out life insurance on you? I have to think about my retirement <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - Buckshot on 03/04/2002 19:48:35

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

I'd hunt cape buffalo only if I had my Remington .416Rem next to me as a back up gun....AND i could grab it, aim and shoot it in time!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Or option #2:

Have my Armalite AR-50 in .50BMG with me. That'll stop anything on the planet!<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

a 45-70 is a 45-70 regardless of what action it is launched from. It has taken plenty of Capies and for that matter every dangerous animal on the planet. And still does it today!loaded with 400-500 gr hard casts over a heavy charge of BP or smokeless no animal can be killed any deader.

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

Absolutely, I have to agree with Buffalo Hunter on this one.

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

Sure WhY not,Like arctic said a bow sounds good also.Like to try with my crossbow.A 45-70 does a good job on deer,bam down and out

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

How brave the bow hunter, who sits at his keyboard and hunts all manner of wild and dangerous beasts.

Robin

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

I'd like to shoot him head on with a Garrett's 540 gr. Hammerhead at about 100 yds. and watch him get knocked off his feet as the bullet went in through his chest and out through his a**!

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

A cape buffalo would soak up a slug from a 45-70 like a sponge and then run someone over. In my opinion the 45-70 is a large, slow, sloppy, outdated caliber. I videoed a fellow a few years ago shooting a treed black bear with one and it did not even break the skull. Why he choose to shoot it in the head is any ones guess but that bear came out of the tree like a freight train and was killed by a .44mag on the ground. I'll leave the old buffalo gun for the history books.

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

Redriver,
I agree with you if you go to K-mart to buy your watered down 300gr hollow point ammunition then by golly it's a pretty weak round.
If you buy some of the good stuff from Buffalo Bore or Garret or reload then a 45-70 gives up very little to a .458 win mag. Buff Bores loads push a 405 gr bullet at 2100 FPS and with soft point bullets I've seen penetrait end for end on Black Bear and a big one to boot.
Oh and just by the way go over to Thefiringline.com and look at the three Cape Buffalo that Rich killed with his 45-70 in Tanzania this summer. One of which was a one shot kill and all three of which got full penetraition including exit wounds. A modern firearm chambered in 45-70 can take some ungodly huge loads and actually puts out more horse power than many of the old 45 cal &quot;Heavy rifles&quot; of yesterday.
The reason that Winchester and Remington won't put out these loadings is that much like the .45 Colt (which in a modern pistol can outproduce a .44 mag)the major companies are affraid to put out a load that will damage an older original firearm. The older .45-70's weren't built to take the pressures of the modern ones.

Edited by - surestrike on 03/06/2002 22:15:20

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

Good info, I never knew that a 45-70 could produce those numbers. The ballistics reference guide that I use is from Gun Digest and it list the 45-70 with 405 grain as having a velocity of only 1330fps at the muzzle. The ft pounds is also fairly light as it is listed at 1590 at the muzzle. If you compare the 45-70 using those numbers with that of say a .416 weatherby shooting a 400 grain bullet there is a big difference. My chart lists the .416 as having 2700fps at the muzzle with a massive 6474 pounds of energy.

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

Redriver,
With all that said in defense of the .45-70 I use a .458 Lott for my heavy rifle. I do however use a .45-70 in a Marlin guide gun as a primary and back up rifle for our hog and bear hunts in TX and NM. I reload out of the speer manual and they show a 1800 or 1900 FPS load for the Marlin with a 405 gr and I'll tell you what if you want to really get ballistic look at the loads available for a ruger #1 or a bolt action mauser in 45-70.
I also agree with you that the .416 in any of the three current comercial chamberings are pretty darn hard to beat. Great amounts of energy and flat shooting maybe the perfect all around dangerous game rifle. Having the ability to take that 200 yd shot on Buff or knock em down in the thick stuff is pretty darn cool!

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

haveing hunted cape buff several times. and killing several over the years. I would like to ask you this question Sure strike & red river: where did you or did you ever find an PH that let you take a 200 yarder at a cape buffalo. regardless of the caliber you were toteing. BTW more than 1/2 of the buffs I 1 shotted with a old 45-70. Trouble with getting imfo. out of books and making comments based on them is someone is bound to come along that ACTUALLY did it, and call your bluff.
Also I wonder about the comment that went along the lines of a 45-70 not being able to break the skull of a bear. Then agreeded upon by the other of you. Because a factory loaded 1300+ fps 45-70 is so low end. What is a 22 long rifle in the way of a powerful caliber? yet countless steers, hogs,etc. have fallen prey to a well placed head shot with that itty bitty load

Edited by - buffalo hunter on 03/08/2002 08:18:09

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

Buffalo Hunter,
First off read my comment, I agreed with red River that the factory loaded 45-70 stuff was weak. I never gave any inclination what so ever about the bear skull thing. However having been a guide who specializes in bear hunting for the last oh 10 years I'd have to say that I've seen stranger things happen. As far as calling my bluff. Well bud once again a little reading comprehension is in order. I said that The current chamberings in .416 are flater shooting and could give the ability to take that 200 yd shot. I never infered that I'd done it myself. I have worked for several PH's expatriots one from Rohdesia and another from Tanazania. I am told that in some areas such as the Okovango(yes I know the Okavongo is in Botswana) that longer shots of 100 + yds do occur and I've even heard stories of longer shots from the pros themselves. I will not however post my opions about .416's and 45-70's with out contacting you first and getting approval would that that make you happy?
Also if you notice I gave no expert opion about Buffalo hunting itself only the Rifles that I have used in the past. So my friend your comment about &quot;Calling my bluff&quot; is way out of line as there is no bluff involved.
Further more If you had read my post you'd see that I defend the .45-70 as a close personal freind of mine killed Three (3) Buffalo with his in Tanzania last summer. And by golly one of those shots was taken at over a hundered yards. I guess his PH just trusted his ability to shoot. So I don't really see the premise of your post other than you want every body to know that you have the time and the money to to have hunted a Buffalo. Good for you I'm happy for ya. Now read the darn post before you go accusing me of B.S.ing anybody.<img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>

Suresrtike

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

SS : I did read your post and though most 99% of my reply was intended for RR . I stand by my comment in regard to your worth of the low end loads for the 45-70. you posted you agreeded with RR on his opinion of them. His comment was &quot;couldn't penetrate a bear skull&quot;.
my intent and I'm certain you realize it was/is &quot;that is pure hogwash&quot;. Even the lowly 22 owns the pizzaz to do that.
and yes i've been capie hunting not once but 6 times. In all of those trips where I harvested over a dozen capes . i have not met a PH that would &quot;trust&quot; anyone's shooting prowness on dangerous game. rather they put their client as close as possible, usually in realm of the buff a long shot is 40 yds.

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

&quot;CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?&quot;
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<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

Buffalo Hunter,
Where have you hunted Cape Buffalo? And I'm just currios what type of .45-70 did you use and what type of ammunition? What in your opinion is the best all around Buff gun/caliber? Several of my freinds claim that the modern custom .45-70's loaded with thermo nuclear solid loads are the end all cool stuff for Buff. This includes one of my freinds whom is a current Pro in South Africa. It seems that the .45-70 is regaining popularity on the dark contienent. It also seems that Americans tend to perfer the various .416's what have you found?

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

I do not know anything about shooting a buffalo at 200 yards, so I do not know where that came from. As far as the bear goes I was on a hunt in Maine a few years ago with a buddy of mine that travels with me on most trips. He had got a bear and while we were trying to find a bear for me a call came across the guide's radio that they had a big bear on the run and wanted us to dump our dogs on the trail and go along. As our hunting was slow that morning we caught up with the pack that had finally treed the big bear. The hunter was an older fellow from PA and had an old single shot 45-70. After we gathered the dogs and got them organized the guy took a shot at the head. I do not know why he shot it in the head because it was a record class bear, anyway after the shot hit the bear square between the ears on the top of the head as it peered down at us, he stood up on all fours on the limb he was on. At that point he looked like he was dazed and may fall any second, well instead of falling he came down the tree in front of the guide and my buddy very much alive! Both men shot the bear several times within 10yds with 357. mags and the guide ended up killing it with my .44 mag. After the flurry of activity which only last 20 seconds ended, we inspected the lack of damage the old 45-70 did. There was a perfectly circular patch of hair missing about the size of a milk jug cap. The skull was plainly visible and not penetrated. The bullet had deflected off of the skull. It may have been a fluke and I have heard of stranger things, but it happened. As far as hog wash goes, the entire episode was videoed by me and although it is very shakey footage, the account that I just described is documented. That has been my only experience with a 45-70 thus my comments, however I guess I have been enlighhtened a bit about the new ammo and performance improvements. Good info Surestrike

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

Red river, Not to run you down as others have already, but to clarify to those who have skimmed this post, your post claims that your guide had an &quot;old single-shot .45-70&quot; which surely would not have been loaded with anything like the new hot loads that newer rifles are capable of firing without damage.
A buddy of mine pays a man nearby to reload for him in all kinds of high velocities, i.e. 8mm mauser 180gr SP at 3000+ fps, 139gr AP SKS up to 3200 fps, and 280 gr TB .45-70 out to 2300 fps. Claims it's kinda a rush to shoot, firstly because it kicks the **** out of him, and secondly because he's not absolutely sure that the gun will fire everytime, rather than blowing up. He takes mulies with it, took one last season at 250 yrds, through both shoulders like a frieght train. I'm sure that a well bonded bullet at anywhere near this velocity (hopefully slower for safety's sake) and within 50 yrds would penetrate the hide of a capie pretty well.

GOTTA LOVE THAT MARLIN MAGIC!!!!

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
rather they put their client as close as possible, usually in realm of the buff a long shot is 40 yds.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

wow, it seems like that would put the person in more danger, the buffalo wont have to run as far to get to them :) but then again, i've never hutned buffalo...whatever

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

First I hunt in both Zim. and RSA secondly i use a handload of 54 gr of IMR 3031 /405 gr JSP and a Starline 45-70 case. third I've never even attempted a shot at over 70 yds on any African game. And never saw a PH that would allow his client to do so. I have killed Leopard, lion,buff and most of the plainsgame. For the lighter animals I use a 350 Rem mag and my heavy gun is a single shot W&H 45-70.
I have owned a 416 Rigby but was not overly impressed with it. And the gun now sits in the vault for when i hunt elk. i did shoot a bvull moose with it in BC and took him with 1 shot. but nothing I couldn't have done with a 30 06.
besides ammo is too expensive for the 416 458 etc. when the modern handloaded 45-70 still gets the job done and is steeped in a rich heritage as well.

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

I agree with Nomercy.....a .45-70 can and would kill a cape buffalo, provided the right modern day load is used.

Iknow they make a 500grain bullet for that gun now. That's awesome. As far as the bear story about the bullet bouncing off the head, heck that is totally possible.

I've personally seen 00buck shot bounce off of the glass of a pay phone both, .223 and .308 bullets bounce (deflect) off of car windshield glass, only to cause a small crack.

There are countless and countless documented incidents of every type of handgun bullet bouncing off a skull of a human being. Remember, it only takes on average 16 lbs of blunt force trauma to crack an adult human skull. A .45 ACP for example produces around 300 ft/lbs @ 50 yards with a 230grain bullet. Many many people have been hit in the head with a .45, only to have the bullet either ricochett off, or hit the scalp and travel under the skin only to encircle half of the skull and exit from the otherside. All the while, the human lived to talk about it!

So, like I said, anything is possible. I just feel a .45-70 can do anything.

When the new .450 Marlin rifle round was created about 2 years ago, it was designed to beat factory .45-70 loads. The .45-70 for the reloader has the potential to be every bit better than a .450 Marlin. The only reason ammo makers don't produce modern factory .45-70 loads is due to fear that someone may use that ammo in the old Springfield &quot;trap door&quot; model .45-70's. Therefore, the gun/ammo companies came up with the .450 Marlin. Only the handloader can make the .45-70 a modern, better &quot;killing&quot; load which far surpasses the .450 Marlin.

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

Buffalo hunter what about the .416 Rigby did you not like? The reason that I ask is this I undrrstand that there is a very real use for longer range guns in some parts of Africa on bigger game and the .416's seem to fit the bill quite nicely. Now I've got the part about you never taking a shot at over 70 yards on African game. I know several people who have and do every year and that's why they say to use .416's.
I've been invited to Tanzania this summer and am debating tasking my .45-70. But I think I'll probably take old reliable in .375H&H and it's twin in .458Lott. This is the same area that my buddy went last year and had some longer range shots. The furthest shot he had on Buff was 103 yds. He confirmed that when I spoke to him today. Apparentley in that block some shots are taken at further range than that.
As far as redrivers comment on the defelected .45-70 round as I said I've seen stranger things happen. I believe alot depends on the angle the bullet struck the skull.

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

hk45 it does not take a &quot;modern 45-70 load&quot; to kill a cape. The trapdoors with their blk pwd loads have done it countless times during the 1800's-today. My brother has a consession in Tanzinia for capies. Takes around 100 clients a season. The nay sayers to BP trapdoors should see what many natives kill crop raiding capes with. no firearms are owned by the natives &quot;legally&quot; but the old BP blunderbust still shows up now and again.Nearly every wet season he sees old 12 ga. dbl loaders with BP and anything that can be had for a slug. For example lug nuts,washers,bolts,rocks,etc. do in some massive buff. As well as native bows and arrows that are the equivilent of around 45# @ 28&quot; here stateside.
SS: my opinion of caliber is: that with the correct bullet no one needs any larger caliber than a 30 06 to kill any animal in the world. In my opinion too many wish to rely on power rather than marksmanship and getting close.Those that would say &quot; I need a stopper in the event he charges&quot; watch to much TV and Mark Sullivan videos.If you travel across the big salty and you get a shot at ANY dangerous animal. I will guarrantee you if he is heading even remotely in your direction after the shot...your PH will bust him before you can chamber another cartridge. he's not about to risk lawsuits and loss of his coveted PH lis. because of a client's shooting. And that is one thing you can bank on!

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

I've never hunted cape buffalo nor even been to Africa. However, I have wanted to get a Marlin 45-70 for hogs, black bear and as a brush gun for elk. SS, thanks for the info on hunting bear with a 45-70. Always nice to hear how the round has done in real life. BH, does your brother have a web site?

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

Calhunter,
Well friend I can tell you one thing for sure. The 45-70 loaded with 405gr soft points is a hog stomping SOB even on the largest hogs. I've never seen anything put a hog down with a body shot quite as nicely as a .45-70.
BuffHunter, I absoloutly agree with you on the point about marksman ship. And over the years I've seen more people flub a shot with the newest super mag that they just bought and have developed a case of the super mag flinchies. I always feel better when a guy shows up in camp with a well worn 06 or 308. I guess that's why I depend on my .375 for so much I don't shoot it so much as I wear it. I've killed hunderds of head of game and shot well over a thousand rounds through it. To me it's like a comfortable old pair of boots not pretty but the one I enevitably grab when walking out the door. One ounce of familiarity is worth 5000lbs of muzzle energy.

Edited by - surestrike on 03/12/2002 10:50:05

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

No, I'd prefer something with a little more power. 375 H&H, or any of the 416's.

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

Buffalo hunter.....I agree with you 100%. I also agree with you regarding the 30-06 being just about the best rifle/cartridge to get any job done. More so in North America. IN Africa, I wouldnt be that good of a shot, so I need a little more &quot;omph&quot; to get the job done. I'd feel pretty good with a good .338 Win Mag, but I understand that caliber is too small and illegal for big game in Africa.

I agree with shot placement and getting close. Why do you think the past 4 years I've been taking everything from CA mule deer, 3 black bears, and 5 hogs all with my .243!!!!!!!!!!!! I love that gun. Nothing beats shot placement. Nothing.

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

i would do it. if the first shot doesn't put him down the 2nd 3rd of 4th will :) but i'm pretty confident that the first one would do the trick.

RE: Would You Hunt a ...With a Lever Action 45-70?
 

I would take a .700 nitro.