jjt

a fence to keep the wolves out would cost between $700,000.00 to $1,000,000.00

and would kill around 600 elk and 3-400 deer 2-300 antelope the first year considerably less the next year

folks in texas dont have to worry about winter migration routes

jjt

DM
i am sure plainsman will be buy to make sure it is the humans we start eliminating. god forbid we hold ourselve in higher respect than an animal

EKM
lol well said

trouthunter

Being and Idahoan I have an up close and personal response to the wolf debate. I have looked closely at both sides of the argument and have followed the wolf re-introduction efforts for this state.

I agree with some of you with the fact that a wolf has every right to be here as we do. Unlike the dinosaurs, mammoths, and sabertooth tigers, the wolves were taken to near extinction by un-natural means. Therefore, to some degree, I agree to try to preserve the speicies from extinction by re-introduction. Not just to see the speicies restored to the wild, but also allow for future hunting and trapping opertunities in the lower 48.

However, I strongly disagree with the way that they went about the re-introduction process.

First off, in Idaho, they introduced a different species of wolf. They used Canadian wolves, a larger breed of wolf than the original species that roamed this area. These larger wolves (about 30 to 50 lbs heavier than the original breed) are a more dominant predator that target the larger animals (elk herds). This more dominant breed has taken off in numbers since the introduction in the late 80's, early 90's. The elk have been hit the hardest by the wolf population boom. The elk herds of Idaho have decreased 30% in size since the re-introduction. The wolf has also pushed the couger out of the back country into more populated areas, and we are seeing more couger related instances (attacks on dogs, children, and some adults) causing the knee jerk reaction of killing the couger responsible for the attacks.

Secondly, I am upset with the way the government has handled the control of the population, or lack thier of. Until recently it was a federal crime to shoot a wolf. I could understand that back when they were in danger of extinction, but the change in control laws have been too slow in the process to keep up with the population boom. Today the Idaho wolf packs are strong and threatening to be overpopulated in the predator to prey ratio. The general public can shoot a wolf only if the wolf threatens you, your family, or your property. The federal government is now waiting for the States to come up with a plan for control. The problem with this is the 3 States involved (Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming) have to all have a plan at the same time. So as the control efforts are wrapped up in red tape, the wolves continue to breed unchecked.

Finally, one of Idaho's main incomes is from tourism, and a good chunk if that is hunting dollars from the elk hunts. The wolves main prey is elk (remember the 30% decrease in elk population). The economic effects of the wolf re-introduction has already been felt.

Eventually there will be a control measure, but unfortunatly it is comming to late. The damage has been done just to appease the minority "environmentalists" who want to hear the cry of the wolf.

Do you know what is next on their adgenda? The re-introduction of the grizzly bear. They'll probably ship some Alaskan Browns down for that one.

rather_be_huntin

Really, well since you are the wolf expert and we know nothing then you would should know that worrying about your kids is not a viable arguement against wolves. Why?

"Wolf bites and attacks are highly unusual. Injuries and deaths from pets, bears, moose, and fox are far more common than those caused by wolves. Most reported wolf bites are caused habituated wolves being fed. On average, there are two bear attacks per year in Alaska. Overall, 32 have been fatal. Historically, dogs have accounted for 38 deaths in Alaska. Only two wolf attacks in Alaska history have been fatal; both attacks were by rabid wolves and occurred in the early 1940's."

Source: Alaska State Troopers News Release
http://www.dps.state.ak.us/archive/R...0/wlfbite2.pdf

It really rubs me the wrong way when someone says simply because they live in a place they are all of a sudden an expert and no one else knows what they are talking about. But it is satisfying when the self proclaimed know it all is dead wrong by proof. This shows that at least some apprehensions about wolves are based on fear and not the facts.

But hey what do I know, I don't actually live in Alaska. I'm sure this report was manufactured by the conspiracy of wildlife biologists and government agents that want wolves to thrive. So I'm curious Mr DM how many wolf attacks on humans have you seen? Go ahead and set us straight since we have no idea what we're talking about.

noway

Those Alaskan statistics mean nothing with regard to the wolves in Idaho.
The Alaskan wolves are hunted and have a healthy fear of man.

The wolves in Idaho are not hunted and have no fear of man.

A whole different ball game.

Since you have no fear of wolves bring your young children on out to Idaho and I will show you a good spot to camp where there are plenty of wolves to not worry about. Although from your comments I would guess you have no children.

DM

rather be hunting,

I never claimed to be an expert on ANYTHING, but i DO claim to have been in the Alaskan bush an extended amount of time, and lived out of any towns there for 25 years!! In that amount of time i DID manage to learn a few things about wild animials. AND i didn't get my info off a web site, or by reading the National Geo either! I've related here what i saw and learned out in the bush, and i've reported it here "accurately", nothing more, and nothing less!!!

I've NOT personally witnessed any wolf attacks, but i did have a freind who was bitten on the arm by one that came into his camp. And, NO he didn't report it!!!!! (as is normally the case there, for those non-townies)

I have no idea how many wolf attacks go on around the world, but i am positive of one thing, not ALL attacks of ANY KIND get reported! I know this from personal experence myself, where i didn't report everything that happened to me there.

One of my personal friends in Alaska is an veteran Alaska State Trooper, and i assure you things go on "there" that never get's into a book of statics!! BUT really, that's not the point! "If", you lived close to wolves, and seen how they come into homesteads and take dogs ect.., i'll bet YOU, you'd NOT want to leave your young children out there playing "unsupervised" when they move into YOUR area!! It only takes ONE, would you want that one to be YOUR's???????????

My distant neighbors just hated me when i'd let bears wonder into my yard, and one time i even had one look into my home through my "picture window", they never did any more than get into my garbarage a time or two. Now wolves, that's another story!! They take and eat pets there all the time, and in my opinion are much more dangerous to children than bears are!!! Now, if bears ran in packs, perhaps i'd change my opinion?????????????

NOW, how about telling me what "wolf experence" YOU have???????????? How much time have you spent in the bush with them in the last 15 or 25 years???????????? Have you EVER even seen wild wolves hunting or takeing game in the bush before????

Lastly, i love hearing about other peoples bush experences, and i learn from them! But, i don't put those folks down just because they experenced something that i haven't seen before!! I learned a long time ago that i won't learn everything out of a book!!! Isn't that a good reason to spend more time out in the bush??????????

Drilling Man

rather_be_huntin

DM. Pissing contests are all about egos, who can beat thier chest harder. I will not enter them. I acknowledge that you have a unique perspective because you live there. However telling others that they don't know what they are talking about because they don't live there is off base. Based on that logic there are no American Civil war experts because no one experienced it. You basically said, "wolves do this" and then when someone says something to the contrary you tell them they have no idea what they are talking about. There are many creditable sources of information that one can learn from and only an idiot doesn't use them.

Wolves will be in my state soon so I've armed myself with every piece of info I can find. Some of my info says you are wrong about your fears. IE attacking children. I pointed that out and I did it a little in your face because I felt you were being very in my face.

To answer your question I have seen Yellowstone wolves in person and countless videos. I won't pretend to have the experience that you have, however telling me I don't what I'm talking about just isn't accurate. Wolves are predators, they kill with teeth. Encounters with prey are violent, but they are with any other predator.

Aldo Leopold wrote,
"Those who understand the role of the predator understand the inner workings and drama of the land itself. You can not love game and hate the predator ... the land is one organism."

I don't really have anymore input on this subject.

bigbulls

I guess a million bucks is a little steep for a fence.

I don't know what else to tell ya. But IMO wolves were nearly wiped out by man not too many years ago just like the Bald Eagle, elk, deer, turkey, buffalo and countless other animals in this country and around the world. Wolves should be reintroduced to places that they used to roam free but it should be done in such a manner to allow for controling growing populations.

You know what, That argument holds about as much water as a noodle strainer. Every single person on this planet has some sort of a dwelling where wild animals used to roam free. I'd be willing to bet that a ranchers house, barn, and other buildings are taking up a lot more land that my apartment is. Do you think I like the city living? Please, I'd give my right #@%& to live on thousands of acres somewhere in the mountains where there were / are wolves and be greatful that I had a "wolf problem"!!!!!!!! I can't afford to do it though. At $10,000 an acre it's gonna be a heck of a long time before I can do so. I didn't have a ranch handed down through multiple generations like most farmers / ranchers did.

Yes the predators need to be limited just like avery animal in this country. But for someone to say and advise people that we should just go out and kill every wolf that you see is just an ignorant and completely selfish thing to say. Humans have done this with all kinds of animals and MOST of us have learned that this planet is much better off with the animals alive and well than be extinct.

This one statement is a huge part of the entire problem with wolf reintroduction.

Like I said earlier, our ancestors made the bed that we are arguing over now. When people almost wipe out an entire species of animal eventually someone is going to do something about it. That's when the trouble starts because we then are forced to reintroduce non native animals that have totally different habits and instincts to take the place of the wiped out natime animals that were there.

plainsman

You know what jjt, the more I see of how humans are screwing things up on this planet, the more RESPECT I have for animals.Wars,terrorists, drugs, rape,murder for a pair of shoes[:@]....yup humans are definatley the superior beings....it's proven everyday[&o]

bigbulls

Touche plainsman!!!!!!!!!

It really is quite sad that there are actually people still left on this earth that would kill off an entire species of animals for a few bucks or to rid themselves of competition while hunting.