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Lion hunt video....must see!!

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Lion hunt video....must see!!

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Old 03-31-2004, 07:20 PM
  #101  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 801
Default RE: Lion hunt video....must see!!

Seriously guys... how can you argue that hunting Dangerous Game to include hippo's, cape buffs, elephant, lions, leopards, grizzlies, kodiaks and polar bear and perhaps crocs as well as a few others is NOT inherently more dangerous, MUCH more dangerous than the types of hunting most of us do yearly??????

1. They ALL possess the ability to easily tear apart any man alive not properly armed, and in the wild routinely rip apart animals much larger than man.

2. They ALL live in far away and wild places... few if any people on this board live a short hike from these critters. That also puts them a long way away from hospitals and proper healthcare should an accident occur.

3. Regardless of statistics, each one of these critters WILL kill men ... and then EAT them this year .. and more than just once! Not one whitetail or elk or moose will "EAT" a man after killing them by plowing through the windshield.

4. Would you be afraid if you had a weapon malfunction (read loud click) on a deer, elk or moose at 25 yards? What about a polar bear or lion?

5. They EAT people .... maybe not regularly ... but they look at us the same way we look at chickens and turkeys. In the case of elephants and hippos .. they may not eat you .. but they are bigger than your car and wouldn't think twice about attacking you in it!

6. Can you imagine telling your wife how much it is going to cost to hunt these things??? How about the taxidermy bill??? Hope little Billy doesn't need braces or Suzy gets into college ..... plus, imagine explaining how your 10 foot tall Kodiak mount is going to brighten the living room???

7. Did I mention they EAT people ...
MA Jay is offline  
Old 03-31-2004, 11:45 PM
  #102  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Raleigh NC USA
Posts: 352
Default RE: Lion hunt video....must see!!

MA Jay - I think your catching a lot of the discussion after it was pulled downwards a bit. Go back to James B's post near the top of page 4. I may be misinterpreting him a little, but I think that his salient point was not that there are no injuries or deaths as a result of dangerous game turning the table on the hunter. Instead, I think that his point was that those situations are rare and that a hunter who keeps his wits about him and is prepared is "much more apt to be killed on the way to a hunting trip than by any animal once we arrive."

Unfortunately that opinion clashes with some people's world view of the hierarchy of hunting. What was a discussion on that point kind of got hijacked. Reading through the message I almost had the idea that James B was being given a homework assignment. I came home from a happy hour feeling no pain and decided to chime in more on the original point, that there is likely a greater probability of injury from environmental factors than from dangerous game. I guess that didn't sit too well with the school marm as we've been chastized for not meeting the discussion on his terms. Apparantly the facetiousness of the mosquito discussion was lost, we should have thrown in a couple more smiley faces, though I would have thought one would have been sufficient.

Its sad to see the general level of discourse brought down. Simple and perhaps self-evident statements are profoundly misinterpreted. People with money have been known to "buy" their trophy. A good guide can create a successful hunt for a poor hunter. That hunter may not learn and grow from that experience. I believe that BeaverJack might have called them candy-a** city folk. But if you instead make a statement that those who hunt these magnificent beast come back a different class of hunter, you leave no allowance for individual differences. That was the heart of the discussion in the survey thread.

How can someone "buy" their trophy and still come back a different class of hunter? I know, we'll simply say that they deserve to be shot. Problem solved. Let me stew a bit and re-post a couple of videos of dangerous game. That'll prove that its not alway safe and easy (a contention that I don't think was ever made).

The arguement reminds me of Kevin Klein's character in "A Fish Called Wanda". He read philosophy so that he could tell you he read philosophy and therefore couldn't be stupid. "Stupid people don't read philosophy." "Yes they do! They just don't understand it!" was the response.

How can someone who hunts what "I" determine to be a lesser animal consider themselves my equal? Could it be that they're a good tracker, learned the art of camoflauge and scent control, practice shot placement, scout as a religion? How could that be? I hunt in blue jeans (check the pictures), use a bigger bore that permits a marginal shot if need be (check the messages on that topic). It must be that they hunt an inferior animal, and are of a lesser class than I. Surely they must be fooling themselves.

The way these recent threads have degenerated is similar to today's political climate. It's the O'Reilly Factor in the big game forum. Screw rational discussion, there is no middle ground, no shade of grey. We turn the forum into a copy of the Accurate Reloading forum, where those who we disagree with are fools, not to be suffered lightly. It's not just these EKM discussions. Go back to the message from Newmanisking where a new member didn't explain his situation enough for some. Look how he was attacked.
CalNewbie is offline  
Old 04-01-2004, 07:20 AM
  #103  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 801
Default RE: Lion hunt video....must see!!

Cal-

I think you and I are essentially in agreement on this subject. We recognize there is an inherent greater danger in hunting an African lion than a whitetail deer, for a myriad of reasons stated clearly throughout this thread. We also seem to agree that hunting these same creatures does not automatically catapult a hunter into a new "class" or raise that person as a "hunter" above other hunters. A person's dedication, skill and experience in the field does that regardless of quarry.

I think that "some" of the people who hunt Dangerous Game do it more for the illusion of achieving "class" and status as a "hunter" than for the pure thrill and desire of it. As I have stated elsewhere, that has been my personal observation in the 4 people I know who have taken several species. That is not to take away a shred of the accomplishment of some hunters who have successfully hunted Dangerous Game for the pure challenge and experience of it. As I also stated before, I do think there are levels of hunters and people .. and just as there are different dedication and skill levels of whitetail deer hunters .. so exists discrepancies in the ranks of the people who travel to Africa and Alaska and other places. If there weren't .. where would all the bitching and moaning of PH's and Guides the world over come from??? Forums are filled with the stories from PH's of people hunting in Africa with weapons they had never fired, demands of "trophy caliber animals", poor marksmanship, and lack of physical stamina ... if these stories are even half true, then there are some people hunting these "dangerous game" that are not above or better as hunters than many who chase animals that don't eat people. The truth is ... some of these people still end up with Cape Buffalo on the wall to boot .. and yet left alone in good ole wood patch USA they wouldn't be able to see a deer let alone harvest one without being walked to the base of a treestand. Now of course that does not hold true for everyone!!!! But it does hold true for some .. and because of that it is hard for some of us to bestow "status" or "class" based on a mount in the trophy room.
MA Jay is offline  
Old 04-01-2004, 08:19 AM
  #104  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Raven Creek, Pennsylvania
Posts: 43
Default RE: Lion hunt video....must see!!

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! now that was pretty cool. I would have had to change my pants and underwear after that. I hope the taxidermist that does that lion is good at sewing with all of the shooting that was goin on.
ridgerunner21 is offline  
Old 04-01-2004, 11:52 AM
  #105  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
Default RE: Lion hunt video....must see!!

Wow, complete with name calling and a wardrobe critique! And to think I've been accused of going on a rant from time to time....

One may observe that a thread seldom makes it past 50 responses let alone a 100 unless there is some point of controversy involved. That controversy one may find distasteful or even diametrically opposed to one’s own beliefs (which happens sometimes) otherwise most threads drift quickly, peaceably and safely back to page 2, then page 3, then page 4, and then "gone" where they create no more consternation.

If one is uncomfortable with the content, direction, or drift of a particular thread, then one certainly has the option of ignoring it entirely OR posting a "junction" post which offers the players an opportunity to take off in a new direction (proactive). Folks may or they may not take the turn, but at least it is constructive. However, if one “jumps in” and then simply complains that the other "kids in the sandbox" aren’t playing “right”, then it comes off a bit like whining. Most the folks here can, will and do draw their own conclusions.

BTW, as a sidenote, there was an earlier reference to BJ's terminology, I believe BJ's favolrite for describing "hunters that shouldn't be" was "pink arsed momma's boys" (PAMB's) although his connotation may or may not apply here.

Good Day Sir,

Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM
ELKampMaster is offline  
Old 04-01-2004, 04:56 PM
  #106  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
Default RE: Lion hunt video....must see!!

MA Jay,
You are one of the more articulate posters here. I always enjoy (believe it or not) reading your stuff as it is well written, usually quite insightful, addresses different shades of gray, and different perspectives. An added plus is you "smack" of someone who has actually been out there and done it. You have provided a worthy counter point on these recent issues as well as on some other issues we are quite in agreement.

Regarding the controversial “levels of hunters” discussion (which I only mentioned once in passing as joke on THIS particular thread, and mention it now because it has been brought up again right here and I don't want to appear to be just ignoring it.), I do not base my statements about hunter "growth and progression" on the lowest common denominator of hunters that are out there (it seems you have experienced same with some of your local DG contacts) but rather on good, responsible, "burden sharing", “go for it”, “can do”, “heads up”, “savvy” types of hunters. The kind you want as a "player" in your camp/cabin/group.

As always, there are often hunters out there that just don’t have “the right stuff” and you don’t want them near your camp/cabin/group regardless what you are hunting (large or small, easy or difficult) because they detract from the hunting experience rather than add to it. Those folks (some of which are indeed BJ’s PAMB’s) don’t really even figure into my thought process when considering what effect hunting different levels of big game might have on a given hunter’s growth process. I'm figuring you've got good worthy folks to take with you on such hunts right from the get go.

On a separate but similar note, I know first hand what you mean when you say ….

…. and yet left alone in good ole wood patch USA they wouldn't be able to see a deer let alone harvest one without being walked to the base of a treestand….
I’ve have had a few of those, they were not "big five" hunters, but I've had a few of those --- even have had one that wouldn't even go out and hunt, not even around camp --- different strokes for different folks I guess.

Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM
ELKampMaster is offline  
Old 04-03-2004, 09:12 PM
  #107  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
Default RE: Lion hunt video....must see!!



Jim Zumbo? In blue jeans? Tell me it ain't so....

EKM
ELKampMaster is offline  
Old 04-04-2004, 06:08 PM
  #108  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 801
Default RE: Lion hunt video....must see!!

EKM -

I appreciate the compliment and feel similarly about your posts. I think some people forget these boards are just forums to share ideas, experiences and beliefs. You can't "win" posting ... but while reading posts from people who take the time to write intelligent and well thought out responses and statements, such as yours and a few others (to few unforunately), I find myself often thinking on these topics and understand better my personal feelings on these subjects.

Amazing how many people who have taken the time to open this topic and respond.

Jim Zumbo's hair aint that color anymore!
MA Jay is offline  
Old 04-13-2004, 07:09 AM
  #109  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
Default RE: Lion hunt video....must see!!

Over at DeerHunting.com, the most heavily travelled game specific forum here, with hunters from all over America....

"HAS ANYONE EVER BEEN ATACKED BY A WILD ANIMAL? "

Where were these guy's testimonials when I needed them?
A little different prospective on the DG issue from an unsolicited, outside, neutral source....

Priceless.

Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM
ELKampMaster is offline  
Old 04-26-2004, 09:14 PM
  #110  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
Default RE: Lion hunt video....must see!!

FYI, I've slept under the stars before in the middle of nowhere, but never worried about anything like this..... I don't think we're in Kansas (or NA) anymore Todo.... Just a little ole camping trip, not even big game involved....
==========================

Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 8:18 PM
Zim Hyena attack

An Encounter on the Wild Side

Do you ever have times when your own words come back to you? Each term I
choose a key word and base my assemblies around this word. In the middle
term 2003 I chose the word "Challenges, and in the 3rd term - "Attitude". The
stories, homilies, quotations, etc that I spoke to the children about certainly set
me up for my start to 2004.

I had joined family and friends, about 14 of us, for a New Year fishing and
camping trip at Mongwe, 30kms downstream from Chirundu, on the banks of the
Zambezi. My husband had opted not to come as he reckoned he'd done enough
camping in his lifetime. We had been having an idyllic time, fishing,
cruising, eating, drinking, talking - as one does on the banks of that incredible
river.

On the 2nd January we'd spent the morning fishing, had drifted down the
river for a late afternoon sundowner, had returned to camp, had a wonderful
meal - in true Zimbabwe fashion we had taken two cooks with us who even managed
to produce freshly baked bread each day. At about 9.30 we all decided to
retire for the night. Isn't it amazing how tired one gets doing nothing all day?

I settled into my little tent (one of those 2-man jobbies made for
undersized midgets!). It was extremely hot so after about an hour of
tossing and turning I decided to sleep on the stretcher I had outside my tent. The tent
was too small for the stretcher to fit inside. I must admit, that as I arranged
my pillow and sheet on the stretcher, the thought of hyenas did cross my mind
but I instantly dismissed the idea and was soon fast asleep.

At 10 to 12 I was jerked to wakefulness by the sound of the scrunching of
bone and the most disgusting smell, as a hyena bit into my face and hand
and started dragging me. I screamed and screamed, thinking that my end was in
sight!! It must have been only a few seconds before the brute, realising
that he'd bitten off more than he could chew, let me go and vanished into the night.
As I knelt in the dirt, the blood pouring from my face, I realised that my
hands and feet still worked and that I could still think so I must be all
right!!

My son-in-law, Trevor Gilbert and a friend picked me up and carried me to a
thatched A-frame, where they sat me in the light. My daughter Jenna and her
friend Kim then proceeded to clean up all my wounds and bandage them. What
a dreadful thing for a daughter to have to do for her mother but both she and
Kim managed superbly. Trevor and my ex-husband (you can work that one out
for yourself) then drove me to the hospital in Kariba, encountering many
elephants en-route, some of whom were not too keen to get out of our way. Arriving at
2.30am at Kariba, we met the only piece of negativity we found when the
duty nurses told us to go on to Harare as they had no facilities. Luckily, two
Cuban doctors appeared and immediately put me on a drip, administered pain
killers, gave me an anti-tetanus injection, rabies vaccine and sewed up my
thumb, apologising that they could do nothing for my face. They really gave me a
good Z$120 worth.

In the meantime, after many phone calls, Trevor managed to get hold of my
sister in Harare who contacted MARS, who agreed to come and fetch me. As
there was an air-controllers' strike in prgoress they were only able to land in
Kariba when it was light. Here the pilots apologised for not arriving
sooner.

The MARS doctor and sister were superb, very efficient and reassuring.
During the flight they radioed ahead to the Avenues Clinic for a receiving surgeon
to be waiting for me and to have a plastic surgeon on stand-by. Upon my arrival
at the Clinic, things went pretty much according to the movies, where I was
handed over to the doctors and plastic surgeon, x-rayed, prepared for
theatre, operated on, then sent to the wards. Contrary to what I had been led to
believe, my treatment and nursing was second to none and I have nothing but
praise for all the people who attended to me. They were all highly skilled
and very caring. We are so fortunate in this country to have so many dedicated
and highly tought of specialists still practising here.

Meanwhile my poor husband, who was in Chipinge had been told by me elder
daughter Alison, who lives in Middle Sabi, that I had been attacked and
dragged by my head by a hyena - the message she had received. Fearing the worse, he
packed his funeral suit and set off for Harare, planning my service and
choosing hymns on the way. He actually was highly relieved to see me alive!
I am sure that I was on half the prayer lists in the country upon my arrival in
Harare and probably most of the others by the time I was in theatre. It was
incredible how quickly the news spread. I do believe that I am living proof
that prayers are answered. From the moment that hyena let go of me, everything
was positive. I did lose my eye but the surgeon managed to re-attach my
eye-lid, which is a big plus for holding in a false eye, and still has hopes of
finding tear ducts. After the first op he thought he would have to do a
couple of skin grafts, but during the second op, ten days later, he found that it
wasn't necessry. The bone man managed to put my very "graunched" hand back
together with skewers and thinks I will probably get full movement back. Having been
for various neuro-scans, it appears that the nerves in both my face and
hands are working --more or less.

I still have a long way to go, but think that by the end of the year and a
few more ops I should be as good as new, complete with a matching glass
eye. My face, especially the eyelid, is very swollen, needing to be massaged for
at least half an hour three times a day. This, my husband does. I then lie
back and revel in the joys of formication (note the letter "m") following the
stimulation to my face. I never cease to be amazed at my recovery and have
been back at school for three weeks. I really have no hang-ups about my injuries
or disfigurement. I think it is something to do with this half empty/half
full thing. Much worse things happen to other people. I am still alive. My
injuries could have been much more horrific. The response of my family and
friends has been wonderful. The prayers, support, good wishes, flowers and gifts
given to us by so many have been unbelievable.

Zimbabwe is still a very caring society to live in. People see what needs
doing and do it. I arrived home to a full freezer and fridge and a house
full of flowers and meals. My little school was in perfect running order, as I
knew it would be.

Life is good. Take up the challenge and be positive!!!

Di Paterson

19th February 2004
Chipinge

Kathi
=====================

Sweet Dreams,
EKM
ELKampMaster is offline  
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