Point Creep
 

There is a good article on the internet called "is point creep ruining western hunting" from Outdoor Life. Explains a lot of the smoke and mirrors surrounding this revenue producer.
https://www.outdoorlife.com/deep-div...-game-hunting/

I read the entire article and it made a lot of sense. I've had my doubts about points over the years but most state seem to be using some type of point system, even for residents.

As the article says a point system of some sort is needed when you have to manage tags when supply is out paced by demand. My own opinion is where Colorado went wrong is to not allow banking of unused points. A person has 10 points and under the present system if he applies for a tag that takes 7 points he gets his tag and eats up all his 10 points. When the next year point value for that same WMU is figured based on past years, that 10 points is used into the equation. If there were more than a couple similar tags awarded those inflated points figure into the new value needed to draw. This simply can cause point creep in a much faster way than if the 7 points needed was taken and the hunter ended up with 3 remaining points. I looked at some data a few years ago from Colorado snd some WMU point creep exceeded 1 per year thus making it impossible to ever grow enough points to get the tag. People like Flags with 20 someodd points are the only ones who can really use the points system effectively but may never live long enough to get that once in a lifetime tag they have been paying for all through the years. Hunters age out and that once in a lifetime hunt using a cane can be tough. Like the article says the worst case is to die with a hat full of points. DOW wins hunters lose is the end game. Another plus for hunters if they allow banking of unused points is that a hunter like flags who has a lifetime of points could decide to use the points for 2 or 3 high value hunts that he wouldn't have wanted to burn all of his points on by chosing one of them.

I like your idea. If a hunter could bank their unused points, it could encourage them to use partial points for lesser tags and give them more options and more actual hunts. It could also clear out some of the points accumulated at no cost to the Parks & Wildlife and maybe reduce point creep some. I know we all start accumulating points for that once in a lifetime hunt but as we get older, our priorities can change. The best part is it wouldn't change anything for those people who truly want to continue banking points for that once in a lifetime hunt. Have you contacted Colorado Parks & Wildlife with this suggestion? I think it could be a good one.

You understand the issue for sure. I have not contacted Colorado DOW. My last communication wasn't a high point for me personally and resulted in my decision to stop buying points from them. It is all about the money for them and the PP system accounts for a large percentage of their revenue. Speaking as a western state non resident....the costs associated with being able to hunt when you add the tags to the PP fees over time is ridiculous. Like others have said if you want to play you have to pay. I can appreciate that and participated until it got so ridiculous that I just didn't want to anymore.

I really wish I could give an answer or even a solution for the preference point issue. As noted, I am sitting on a lot of points. Currently I have 24 points for elk, 18 points for deer, 3+11 weighted for moose, 3+10 weighted for sheep, 3 for mountain goat, 3 for pronghorn, and I used up 14 points for bear this year. I have already taken a bighorn and a mountain goat so I'm not putting in for those any longer and since they raised the application price for moose I haven't put in the last couple of years. I cashed in 12 points for pronghorn several years ago and took a nice buck. I stockpiled my points when I was on active duty since they didn't cost active duty CO residents back then. Even with all the elk points I have I still can't get the unit 2 tag that I want as a non-resident. If I was a still a CO resident I could get it but not as a non-resident. I can pretty much get any deer tag I want and will probably try for that next season. I have been playing the point game for a long time and am not getting any younger.

I really think the only realistic solution is to put a 5 year moratorium on points. Simply quit issuing them and let the people with the points use them. If they don't then they lose them. Then start over with a new system that factors in what they have learned about the point game. One thing they could do is remove the option to just buy a point without applying for a tag. You want a point, apply for a tag. When CO first began the point system nobody, including me, ever thought some of these tags would take 25+ points. That was unheard of but they can't justify slamming the door on those of us that have played by the established rules of the game. If they do the 5 year thing I mentioned then I would have to decide if I am going to continue holding out for the unit 2 tag or cash them in on a tag for another unit like 61 which is also a very good unit. I would either use them of forfeit them and the decision would be mine to make.

The bad part about the system they have in place is that new hunters will never be able to catch up to the point creep. Someone like me can sit it out because I have the points to do it. But not one of my nephews can play the game and neither can my brother because he cashes in the points when he gets 3 or 4. The system works for me but I admit I am the only one I know of that can say that. One thing is certain, they will have to do something and I just hope they don't wipe out my 24 points. That would really irritate me since I played the game by the rules they put in place.

I agree that Colorado (or any other state) should not simply get rid of points as that would not be fair to people who have paid their money and played by the rules. I like flags idea of making people buy a tag to get a point as that would help reduce point creep.

I think CI's idea is especially brilliant as it gives people more options on how to use their points. If I had 20 points and could use them for 2 years in a row to get tags that only cost 10 points each, I might decide to go on 2 pretty good hunts instead of holding out for that hunt of a lifetime that I might never get drawn for or might not get until I was using a cane and couldn't go on it anyway. Older guys might choose 2 pretty good hunts to use up their points while younger guys might say heck with it, I still have time to hold out for that hunt of a lifetime.

Together, I think of these ideas give you a great start on devising a solution that's fair to guys who have saved up a lot of points but still gives hunters with less points better options and chances. JMHO but I think stuff like this would make a positive difference.

Colorado DOW is between a rock and a hard place. The system was initiated as a management tool and then over time became a cash cow. The ODL article states that none of the western states can stop the various points programs because they have become a large part of their financials. They can't get away with stopping it because of all the money people have invested and would go bankrupt if they tried to refund. The only solution is to freeze point creep, allow banking of unused points and expect some of the top tier people like Flags to use the points which probably would happen since anyone with 20 or more points has to be getting a bit older. I know 61 is a good area and some people might spend down some points to get a quality hunt providing that the get to keep the unused points. 24 points really equates to a sizeable investment and why would a person spend that whole investment on a hunt that takes half. Thats like spending $10,000 on a $ 5,000 dollar hunt. Better bet is to go on two $5000 dollar hunts under a different system especially if they don't change things. DOW by not changing is actually defrauding the public selling them something that for the most part is unachievable. I havent looked at the yearly data in a few years but as of around 4 years ago many of the mid tier hunts were moving up at more than a point each year.

These aren't bad ideas so far but what else would it take to reform the PP system?

Other option used elsewhere is lottery. The problem with that the odds are often long. In reality the odds are for all practical purposes highly improbable for success. The shortfall of that system is thinking people will often not participate due to the poor odds so low financial gain for the wildlife department. When you think about the points system it started out sound but morphed into something akin to megabucks which is really nothing more than a waste of money with no real chance of success.

I gotta admit, I had hoped to have a few more members chime in on this topic since I know a lot of them hunt with preference points. I'd really like to hear what some of the guides have to say about it.

I know a few people who buy several points from different western states. They know they are spending a few thousand every year but hope down the road they materialize into a hunt or two each year. Some states actually say you lose your points if you fail to keep buying them. Somehow that seems wrong on so many fronts.

I'm no expert by any means. But I give Wyoming my money every year.

I've hunted Wyoming antelope on preference points in 2019. Took us 3 or 4 years applying and we had a good, easy hunt on public land. Although that area was listed as a difficult to access area with limited public land, we were able to find good spots.

If this could be done every four years that would be fine... But it seems to me the demand is outgrowing the supply. Ten years ago that area took no points. This year it took 5. So.... Another 6 years from now? I doubt I could get it with 6 points then.

I also have deer points in Wyoming. Elk points in PA, moose points in Maine. I play the game. I'm only 31 so I figure I'll draw some of these tags eventually.

But the state of hunting saddens me. As a young kid I remember dad and grandpa's hunting stories of going out west. Easy tags. Easy access. They hunted antelope, elk, and muleys.

Those days are gone. And even the whitetail access is disappearing in the East. My area of Ohio is full of leases now. Expensive leases.

I have been researching and reading allot about black bear hunting, I try to go every year I during Pennsylvania's short season. I don't particularly care about antlers. Allot of states have over the counter bear tags, long seasons, and I could get in and hunt "cool" places without playing the lottery game.

Something to consider for guys who want a mountain hunt but don't want to wait ten years to apply and do it.

-Jake

Yup your antelope hunt is typical of what happens with point creep. No points needed and after 10 years now takes 5. Most likely it didnt go up 1 point every 2 years. In all likelihood it did most of the rise in the last 2 or 3 years. You burned your points on a good hunt and may never catch up to the curve since you had to start over. The state still encourages you to apply but must know that you won't be able to hunt that same area again. The morality of the points system is flawed depending on the situation of the hunter. Reminds me of a Christmas present I got my wife about 30 years ago. I bought a set of custom made golf clubs for her about 3 weeks before Christmas. They needed to measure her up and then build the expensive clubs. I gave her the receipt in a card under the tree and a couple days later went down to the pro shop with her for the fitting. The place was dark and when we looked in it was empty. It took a while but I found out they closed up shop and declared bankruptcy. I paid close to a grand cash for the clubs and they took the money knowing I would never collect what I paid for. Points system rings a familiar bell at least to me.

My points have been concentrated in Colorado, Iowa, and Wyoming. The most frustrating out of the 3 has been Colorado deer. What use to take 2-3 points to draw a Unit 83 deer tag now takes 6-7 points in only 15 short years.

I don’t know what the answer is. All I know is that you must have points to be able to draw these tags. I have enjoyed the many CO elk and deer hunts I had with CI and we killed a lot of elk and deer! My Iowa deer hunt was incredible and hope to draw that tag again in 2022 with 4 points. My WY elk hunt was incredible this year. My solution is to become a WY resident in the next year or two so I can get resident tags.

I was glad to use my 19 points for elk in Colorado last year. Like some of you said, you end up with a lot of money just for a tag. Of course, with the creep I would never draw some of the units. I don't mind the thought of applying for a few years to be able to hunt out west, beyond that it's crazy. Hope to use my 3 points for deer in Colorado in 2022. I do have points for deer and elk in Wy that I plan on using in the next 5 years! It's not really points but I've been applying for moose in Maine for probably 20 years. One of these years maybe I'll draw, maybe.

I burned 66 Oregon points the last 3 years, glad to exit there! But still have 347 left in about 10 states. Trying to burn some every year. Sad but strategy is mostly based on which state I think will screw us nonresident point holders next. I am set in Wyoming. My guess is Colorado & Nevada are the most at risk right now. The other states can't get much lower as far as NR quotas go. So planning to burn 25 CO elk points in 2022. Then 16 CO deer points in 2023. It's rough to get rid of them as I've found compromised when I draw even two hunts the same year, even if the hunt periods overlap nicely. I can't devote enough time to scout and hunt. So I just won't do it. Failed to draw any western tags this year, but more than made up for it with two slammer special whitetail hunts here at home, harvesting two great bucks.

I would not like to be a newbie getting in the game at this point. And see myself as a prime target for states to screw, watering down my investment. But I can't burn these fast enough. A bit concerning is my age (61), health and declining fitness level. Wheels are slowly falling off.

Youth is wasted on the young. Hope you get some great hunts in before the wheels come totally off!

-Jake

Zim, you bring up a lot of good points (no pun intended). As we get older, there does seem to be a diminishing chance for a ROI. Ans since you can't give or will them to a family member or friend, there is a point when you're not gaining much.

One positive is I was fortunate to get in the game early enough to already hunt many of the primo units, which today are no more than a pipe dream. Pre-internet, pre-Huntin Fool, while I was in great physical shape-a gym rat. These days it’s all about damage control for these remaining points. I have more than enough for my lifetime. Just got to manage them wisely.