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Colorado elk
I was born in Colorado and have hunted big game since i was 14, so the math says that is almost 50 years of hunting deer and elk. For the last 25 years i have chased elk to hell and gone and have been fairly successful in filling my tags. But this is not about me, it is specifically about the condition of our elk herd, and i can bear witness that in my neck of the woods here in the southwest part of the state, that our herds are in trouble, and that is pretty much what Colo. Parks and Wildlife is saying statewide. Their studies show that the mortality rate of calves is way down in the first 6 month period of life for calves. They estimate that locally the herd is down 30-40 percent, and that has not been affected by adverse winters for the last 3 years.Parks & Wildlife doesn't know why either. They say that it isn't predators, many of us local hunters who cover hundreds of miles hunting, say it is. They say that due to the amount of archery hunters during the pre rut that many bulls are staying away from the cows. Local archery hunters say that happens to a degree, but not enough to affect the herds to this degree. What has some of us local guys worried is that if the herds are declining, and the number of hunters is increasing each year, we will lose the foundational core of our herds. Colo Parks know they have a problem, but they also need the revenue to exist and manage the hunting resoures in this state. There is a hinting from the rumors that they are looking at archery restructuring, with this entailing maybe a shorter season, or maybe a draw. From some of the local archery hunters i have talked with, we agree that there is getting to be to many hunters in the easily accessable hunting areas, and each year there are more archery elk hunters in the woods. These same hunters said they would sacrafice hunting every year if it would bring the herds back up to where it was 8-10 years ago and also increase the bull to cow ratio's to where there are more bulls and also larger bulls. But, we also don't think that this is the fix required to stem this decline in elk. And we also don't think that archery should take the brunt of it. The over the counter elk tags puts a bullseye on this state from hunters across the nation, and as the amount of hunters increases each year, it is an unsustainable equation for having quality elk herds in the future. So, some of us here are seriously talking about starting up a non profit hunting organization specifically to try and get a voice representing hunters with the Wildlife Commission, with the legislature, and assist them in finding answers that are fair to all and increase the health of our elk herds. For now, that is the biggest issue we see, but we hopefully will have input into all aspects of hunting of all the game in Colorado. So i am reaching out to you all, because everything i have talked about affect's a fair number of you. I know that some of you have had some good hunts in this state recently, and the are localized areas that there is still a fair number of elk, but i guarantee you, my aching feet at the end of each archery season guarantees it, that for the last 5 years,my son and i spend much of our time asking each other where the hell the are the elk. When, after each season, 30-40 guys who hunt hard and cover terrain like a goat, each have the same report from our hunts, well, we knew there was a problem before the Parks and Wildlife did. So, input fellow archery hunters, rifle hunters of elk. Would you sacrafice to have better hunting, and to what degree? And the same for rifle hunters? And eventually, when we get this organization off the ground, would you be interested in supporting it? I've tried to give you just the basics of this issue, and i would be remiss if i didn't remind you that pretty much all hunting nowdays boils down to money, revenue. Wildlife is a resource, has to be managed, and that costs money. So when we talk about trying to get a voice and bring about change that is good for all, it is a pretty tall tree we are barking up, and as i have been telling people, you better have a pretty loud bark to be heard. And that can happen only in numbers, so we shall see where this takes us.
Thank you fellow "huntsmen of the woods" |
Dude ...Deleted by CalHunter...
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really
And all you can get out of it is that there are not enough paragraphs. And I wonder why some things never change. You may trivialize it all you want because it isn't perfect for you to read, while here on this home front, the issue as stated is very real, and affects, and will be affecting, thousands of hunters. ...Deleted by CalHunter...
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Sundance I have hunted Colorado for 10 of the last 13 or so years. The hunting always seemed pretty good to me. My hunting partner Rob and I have a Colorado lifetime resident who has taught us both a lot about hunting the west. I remember hearing him talk several years ago about the western rim in the areas west of Alamosa having a herd numbers problem. Between hunting pressure, disease and predators there could be a reason. Welcome to Huntingnet.
I'll add we always hunted the south eastern side of the SLV.. |
Originally Posted by sundance55
(Post 4348889)
And all you can get out of it is that there are not enough paragraphs. And I wonder why some things never change. You may trivialize it all you want because it isn't perfect for you to read, while here on this home front, the issue as stated is very real, and affects, and will be affecting, thousands of hunters. ...Deleted by CalHunter....
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Originally Posted by flags
(Post 4348886)
Dude if you can't grasp the concept of paragraphs and breaking a topic up then I'm not even going to attempt reading this.
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Originally Posted by kellyguinn
(Post 4348945)
Not trying to push buttons here but if you don't want to read it then don't. No need for the rude comments! In the future please just keep them to yourself and move on. Or read it and post something useful!
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Originally Posted by flags
(Post 4348949)
Don't believe I was talking to you. In the future don't involve yourself in a conversation you're not in. Just sayin'
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Originally Posted by sundance55
(Post 4348889)
And all you can get out of it is that there are not enough paragraphs. And I wonder why some things never change. You may trivialize it all you want because it isn't perfect for you to read, while here on this home front, the issue as stated is very real, and affects, and will be affecting, thousands of hunters. If it's a English comp, I will write it as such, just didn't know that I would get graded on a hunting post.
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I view it a bit differently elkman. The OP signed up to become a member and made his post. There is no way for anyone to know a particular member's abilities when it comes to grammar or sentence structure. I found the original post a little bit difficult to read and follow but I took the time to get through it and tried to post a followup which is what we all should be focusing on....especially with a new member who apparently has now chosen to no longer participate. Not everyone is a word smith or even taking it more to the point a teacher like flags. When I was acting in a mod capacity one thing that always bothered me was people being rude to new members. This site is only as good as the members and one thing that sticks in my craw is the difference between today and yesteryear when we had so much participation. Every member that gets chased away is one more that we lose. When loses are more than new real participating members then the site is dying. Every member that gets chased away is another nail in the coffin. It is probably a good thing I am no longer a mod!
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Oh I'm not excusing flags. It could have been handled a lot differently. But then the OP decided he wanted to argue it also. Both being smart-alecks and rude. For reading purposes, I prefer to have material in a digestible format. The OP was able to join HNI, log in, type a long argument which would be worth discussing yet can't figure out how to use the Enter button to break it up into a few paragraphs. I don't know that I buy that. I'm sure he already knows how to make paragraphs and chose not to. His choice but his consequences also.
I do agree with you on everything else (see, new paragraph). :biggrin: Chasing away new members isn't right or good for HuntingNet. My earlier post was not about flags and a moderator discussing his post. That's between them and above my paygrade. In reading the rules though, I don't think flags is going to win that one nor should he. JMHO though. |
I have a typing style that often misses capitalization at the start of a sentence. I type with 2 fingers hunt and peck and my mind often gets ahead of my fingers. I try to go back and proof before I send but often when I am not fully concentrating or running out of time I make errors. None are on purpose and are part and parcel of me as a poster here on HNI. Sometimes you get what you get. When someone is treated rudely the response can follow 2 different paths. Many...for the common good just ignore it and carry on without further escalation. Others have a more measured answer and at times that can be expected. I have always felt that rude people can expect to be treated rudely back. Contrary to that... people who are kind to others are more often than not treated much better than rude people.
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I have a friend who did a Elk hunt in Glenwood Springs this fall.They were successful and seen some Elk but tons of Mule Deer.
Wow,I just did that enter thing and it worked. I never make long posts so I never needed paragraphs. |
Wait until you start pressing "F" #'s on the keyboard. Those can be real fun. ;)
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Originally Posted by Champlain Islander
(Post 4348979)
I have a typing style that often misses capitalization at the start of a sentence. I type with 2 fingers hunt and peck and my mind often gets ahead of my fingers. I try to go back and proof before I send but often when I am not fully concentrating or running out of time I make errors. None are on purpose and are part and parcel of me as a poster here on HNI. Sometimes you get what you get. When someone is treated rudely the response can follow 2 different paths. Many...for the common good just ignore it and carry on without further escalation. Others have a more measured answer and at times that can be expected. I have always felt that rude people can expect to be treated rudely back. Contrary to that... people who are kind to others are more often than not treated much better than rude people.
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Originally Posted by elkman30
(Post 4348985)
Just to be fair, I wasn't criticizing spelling, capitalization or punctuation. Everybody misses that with these keyboards and if you're on a cell phone, forget it. You will get stuff wrong just with spellcheck alone. I agree on how people are treated. And IIRC, being rude is against the rules. that's where the mod comes in although as members, we can surely chime in and speak up too.
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Typing was overrated in HS. Just sayin. :biggrin: :party0005:
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Wow. I'm speechless. First off flags, this is not a contest as to who has killed the most elk. If it was, i got you waxed, coming and going. Get a life. There is a reason critical issues in this country become a debate on whose got the most power, the best grammar, the most notches on their debate gun. This seems to have just flown over your head and there is never change with these kind of issues that will have a critical impact on the future of hunting. The reason is simple. It's because of guys like you that everything starts with "I". When Colorado Parks and Wildlife is extremely concerned, from the top to the field officers, and hundreds of hunters say the same, sir, there is a problem. If I invest my time and effort to inform fellow hunters about what is transpiring in this state because I do care about the health of our elk herds, and I do care about the quality of elk hunting in this state, I DO NOT want people like you involved. Period. For the rest of you, I apologize for the hard reading. I did it at work, was interrupted continually, and tried to keep it as brief as I could. THIS IS A CRITICAL ISSUE. IT IS REAL. THERE WILL BE CHANGE. US LOCALS WHO CARE WILL PUSH UNTIL WE HAVE A VOICE, even if it isn't grammerically correct.
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Btw,
...Deleted by CalHunter...
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Sundance there are a lot of like minded people here on the site that think like you. Please dont give up because one member was having a bad day. I am out ice fishing now and have limited forum contact but I hope when I get home you are still in around. My friend who lives in alamosa has stated the same thing as you. It is important even if Dow turns a blind eye
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Originally Posted by sundance55
(Post 4349043)
...Edited by Champlain Islander...
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Originally Posted by Champlain Islander
(Post 4349170)
Well it looks like this thread has run its course and not even a discussion about the problems the OP was trying to air. Sad for me because I am pretty sure there is some validity to what was being said. This is not HNI's finest hour.
However, that choice enables bullying and bad behavior that has been plaguing HNI for a while and it also weakens the credibility of the other mods and makes our jobs harder. 3 of us mods wanted to take direct action yet held off out of respect for the involved mod. The above actions were taken to restore balance to the topic and set an example that bullying isn't going to be tolerated. They should not be taken as a judgement of the other mod as becoming a mod does have a steep learning curve, something that all of us mods can attest to. The other Mod also said any of us other mods were welcome to jump in if we so desired. 3 of us did but I was a little quicker. :D For future reference, if anybody has a complaint about a particular post, please use the yellow complaint ticket button which is located at the bottom left of each post. Filing such a complaint will direct an email to all mods and Admin so that whoever is available quickest can respond in the quickest manner possible. If you wish to address your issue directly with the offending member, please use the PM feature to send that member only a Private Message so that the 2 of you can discuss it away from the forum. Doing so keeps it out of the forums and does not violate the rules--unless you're going to threaten, harass or intimidate the person in the PM. That is still a rules violation. Just about everything you can do in life (sports, school, job, military, etc.) has rules we are required to abide by. HNI is no different. If you violate the rules, it will be addressed. If anybody has any questions about the above decisions or this post, as always, you are welcome to PM me and I will do my best to answer your questions. So with all of this being said, gentlemen and ladies, play ball. |
Since this topic never truly got discussed due to the sidetracking and it is such an important topic, I've quoted the OP's OP post and broken it up into paragraphs so people can read and respond to it. I know quite a few members hunt regularly in Colorado and many more have hunted previously in Colorado. Your thoughts and suggestions would be helpful. I have not hunted in Colorado but do have some thoughts as well and will post them below in blue ink under the relevant parts of the OP's original post. Hopefully this also helps generate some discussion as well.
Originally Posted by sundance55
(Post 4348883)
I was born in Colorado and have hunted big game since i was 14, so the math says that is almost 50 years of hunting deer and elk. For the last 25 years i have chased elk to hell and gone and have been fairly successful in filling my tags. But this is not about me, it is specifically about the condition of our elk herd, and i can bear witness that in my neck of the woods here in the southwest part of the state, that our herds are in trouble, and that is pretty much what Colo. Parks and Wildlife is saying statewide. Their studies show that the mortality rate of calves is way down in the first 6 month period of life for calves. They estimate that locally the herd is down 30-40 percent, and that has not been affected by adverse winters for the last 3 years.
An obvious question would be if predators are contributing to this issue. Has Colorado been forced to reintroduce wolves like Idaho? Parks & Wildlife doesn't know why either. They say that it isn't predators, many of us local hunters who cover hundreds of miles hunting, say it is. They say that due to the amount of archery hunters during the pre rut that many bulls are staying away from the cows. Local archery hunters say that happens to a degree, but not enough to affect the herds to this degree. What has some of us local guys worried is that if the herds are declining, and the number of hunters is increasing each year, we will lose the foundational core of our herds. Which predators? Colo Parks know they have a problem, but they also need the revenue to exist and manage the hunting resoures in this state. There is a hinting from the rumors that they are looking at archery restructuring, with this entailing maybe a shorter season, or maybe a draw. From some of the local archery hunters i have talked with, we agree that there is getting to be to many hunters in the easily accessable hunting areas, and each year there are more archery elk hunters in the woods. These same hunters said they would sacrafice hunting every year if it would bring the herds back up to where it was 8-10 years ago and also increase the bull to cow ratio's to where there are more bulls and also larger bulls. But, we also don't think that this is the fix required to stem this decline in elk. And we also don't think that archery should take the brunt of it. The over the counter elk tags puts a bullseye on this state from hunters across the nation, and as the amount of hunters increases each year, it is an unsustainable equation for having quality elk herds in the future. I don't know Colorado's hunting seasons but would at least a partial solution include changes to the predator seasons? Lengthening them, maybe adding a 2nd tag, etc.? So, some of us here are seriously talking about starting up a non profit hunting organization specifically to try and get a voice representing hunters with the Wildlife Commission, with the legislature, and assist them in finding answers that are fair to all and increase the health of our elk herds. For now, that is the biggest issue we see, but we hopefully will have input into all aspects of hunting of all the game in Colorado. So i am reaching out to you all, because everything i have talked about affect's a fair number of you. I know that some of you have had some good hunts in this state recently, and the are localized areas that there is still a fair number of elk, but i guarantee you, my aching feet at the end of each archery season guarantees it, that for the last 5 years,my son and i spend much of our time asking each other where the hell the are the elk. When, after each season, 30-40 guys who hunt hard and cover terrain like a goat, each have the same report from our hunts, well, we knew there was a problem before the Parks and Wildlife did. Where is the RMEF on this? Shouldn't they be stepping up to the plate on this? So, input fellow archery hunters, rifle hunters of elk. Would you sacrafice to have better hunting, and to what degree? And the same for rifle hunters? And eventually, when we get this organization off the ground, would you be interested in supporting it? I've tried to give you just the basics of this issue, and i would be remiss if i didn't remind you that pretty much all hunting nowdays boils down to money, revenue. Wildlife is a resource, has to be managed, and that costs money. So when we talk about trying to get a voice and bring about change that is good for all, it is a pretty tall tree we are barking up, and as i have been telling people, you better have a pretty loud bark to be heard. And that can happen only in numbers, so we shall see where this takes us. Thank you fellow "huntsmen of the woods" |
Thank you Cal for all the work you put in here bringing this whole thing to rest. Thank you for all you do as a moderator.
To the main issue of a declining Colorado elk herd.... It was several years ago that my hunting partner Rob and I were talking with a mutual friend who is a lifelong Colorado resident with what I remember as a degree in wildlife biology. His dad before he passed was also a lifelong Colorado resident, ardent hunter and past member of the Colorado Wildlife Commission or so I have been told. My friend at that time was under the opinion that the elk herd was down especially on the western rim west of the St Louis Valley. I believe he thought it was predator related and we even talked about unsubstantiated wolf sightings. At that time I don't think the Colorado DOW acknowledged that there was a problem. I did a little research and it appears now they are talking about a shortage of elk in many areas without a good explanation of why. I know that there are a large number of hunters with more coming to the state each year but find it hard to believe that would impact natures ability for procreation. The animals IMO always find a way to get it done. |
I wondered about wolves myself. It's a huge problem in Idaho.
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Many years ago in Colorado I believe there was a wolf population (might be red wolves from Mexico) but nothing at the time was substantiated. I believe bears and lions do account for elk calf mortality but they have always been there and there should be no biological reason why that form of predation would suddenly rise. When there is a dramatic drop in native wildlife generally there has to be either a man made problem or disease. Here in Northern Vermont our moose herd has taken a dramatic drop and the state biologists have cut down the hunting permits allocated and done some studies to determine why the numbers dropped. They came up with winter ticks which are now epidemic proportions on the calves which cause them to rub against trees to try and get them off. This action removes the hair and many freeze to death due in part to less hair and also from blood loss from thousands of ticks which are on the calves. They blame it on warming climate which allows the ticks to survive further north than before. I am a Vermont native and live within 30 miles from where I was born. I am 70 years old and can't remember ever even hearing about ticks in Vermont. We now have them in numbers great enough to cause lime disease to be of epidemic proportions. Something changed.
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Thanks for the nice compliment CI. This place used to be a lot more tolerant of others and more experienced hunters took the time to explain things to others instead of simply berating them. New members used to have more patience also and not immediately jump into the fray. And a lot of the older members would keep other members in check by telling them to calm down and not get so worked up. back then, most members self policed and other members were a calming influence for the better. Mods didn't have to get involved so much and a lot of members and mods had known each other for over a decade. It was a more congenial time where a lot of people were actually friends off the forum and was a lot more fun. There was a lot of knowledge and experience but also a lot of camaraderie and fun. It was definitely a different place back then.
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I have said this more than a few times...HNI is only as good as the people who post. There always something special about HNI and in it's heyday the posts just kept coming. Day after day and hour by hour there was interest. I know I'll keep posting here and hopefully others feel the same way. From time to time moderators have to act but in the long run good consistent moderation means a well rounded and amicable forum which in HNI's case allows a good exchange of tips, knowledge and questions. I do hope to see less of the sniping and more of the exchange of ideas and friendship both with people who share the same ideals and others who might want to learn.
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Back to the original subject. I just talked with my friend who lives in Colorado and asked him whether the perceived elk herd shortage had spread from the western rim to statewide and he confirmed that it had. He has attended a few meetings with other sportsmen and the DOW and discussions have gone on to a possible solution. The long and short is that there are most likely several reasons like some disease, predation but the main focus has been on hunter pressure. He feels they have allowed too many elk to be harvested and the fix involves allowing less tags to go out which is a difficult dilemma because they need the revenue to keep the department running. A real catch 22. Apparently there is a plan in place to lower tags on a measured basis in certain areas and track the harvest results. My guess is that the tags will be harder to come by and get more expensive.
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"harder to come by and more expensive"
Seems to be the future of hunting as a whole. -Jake |
For some reason the OTC units seem to get hit much harder than the draw units. Herds have not been to the targeted numbers in the OTC units along the San Luis valley for some time now have they?.
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Originally Posted by Big Uncle
(Post 4349225)
For some reason the OTC units seem to get hit much harder than the draw units. Herds have not been to the targeted numbers in the OTC units along the San Luis valley for some time now have they?.
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My hunting partner and I hunt in GMU 075 first rifle season. We have noticed since about 2015 that the elk are much fewer and further between in our areas where we hunt than formerly. There was an article in the Durango Herald on this topic -- diminished number of the elk herd -- in November before Thanksgiving (I think around November 17) and titled "Where have all the elk gone." That is the question we ask ourselves. I think what is not in question is the decrease of the size of the herds, at least in some areas. What to do to manage the herd population is above my pay grade. I will say that in view of this general acknowledgement of what has been my personal hunting experience, I don't plan to hunt elk in Colorado for several years in the future, although I have hunted every year since 2013 and 2006, 2009, 2011 before. I'm 62 years old, so I'm probably not going back to elk hunting. Time to transition into some easier hunting is what is on my mind. Deer hunting in Oklahoma and/or pronghorn hunting in Wyoming. I had hoped to introduce my son and daughter to elk hunting in our happy hunting grounds, but that prospect is dim unless things change in a big way quickly.
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Colorado Elk
You certainly have a lot of hunting experience being in the game for 50 years!. Here in South Africa I suppose Elk hunting is similar to what we call Plainsgame hunting (kudus, nyala, springbok, reedbuck, wildebeest) etc. To hunt in America one day is still on my bucket list. Thanks for the info. Please keep us posted if you find out more about localised areas in Colorado for hunting elk.
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I notice less elk in the unit I normally hunt. I've moved to a unit close by that's doing a lot better and still has a good elk herd.
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The OP hit the nail squarely on the head as far as reduced elk numbers. We in the SW part of the state see a definite decline in elk numbers. At the same time we see tremendous archery hunting pressure. One of the local game wardens told me 4 years ago the in the 5 year period prior to then, that the number of archery tags went from 500 to 3000 in out area. The OTC rifle tags are another factor in the decline. You cannot go anywhere anymore without running into other people. I don't care how far in you backpack or horsepack in. Technology like Google earth and HuntX have taken away any secret spots people had. Now it's just a race in the morning to see if you can beat someone in to a given spot. The state of Colorado started this fiasco when they combined the state parks dept and the dow. at the time, the state parks dept was $30 M in the red. Thus explaining why the state will sell as many tags as they can pedal. The other factor in this mess is the indian reservations in New Mexico where each person can take 5 or more deer and elk per year. They can also hunt National Forest as well as any traditional native lands. This whole country. O and wait, the reservations are where our deer and elk winter. Getting the picture? I have written the state game commission, the governor, senators, and representatives. Attended meetings, you name it. The state is out to make a buck at any cost. Unless people come together, and are willing to give to get, this how it will be. By the way, I have lived in Colorado since 1980 and hunted many parts of the state. Old, yep, killed a few elk along the way and spend many days outside of hunting season in the woods. I know what solution I would implement but then this forum would light up like a Christmas tree, cuz nobody wants to give up a piece of their pie. Have a blessed day.
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I just found this particular thread
the O.P. has a point that you may or may not agree with,yet its well worth thinking about carefully. but certainly trying to confront him over what you may feel is less than ideal sentence structure and grammar and punctuation, is NOT beneficial Id have to agree that the elk numbers in the areas I hunt were never what you might call abundant, but lately the numbers do seem reduced. one of the huge draws to CO. are reasonable access and over the counter licences, raising prices and limited draws will markedly reduce the numbers of people willing to spend thousands of dollars in the state for a hunting related vacation, I know my wife spends a great deal more in CO. casinos while I hunt and she won,t do that if I'm not hunting in the state. solving the lower herd numbers is critical to maintaining the tourist based economic benefits to the state. I don,t know the answer but its certainly needs to be looked into and solved. |
I think one of the main questions to be debated about would be is there any correlation on how many tags are offered vs management objectives? I am sure a quick answer would be yes but then the DOW funding comes into play. Does revenue supersede biological objectives? Here in Vermont they hand out tons of anterless tags and my guess is that $10 lottery application is what they are focusing on.
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