How to get started outfitting
 

My questions are for experienced and established outfitters and guides. I am very interested in buying an outfitting company in the near future and am seeking advice, guidance, wisdom, tidbits anything that I can learn to help make this a success. I worked in the outfitting industry in western Wyoming for 8 years as a packer, camp jack, cook, hunting guide and wrangler. I’m a good horseman, and woodsman and I genuinely like most people. It has been my dream to own my own outfit since the first time I threw a squaw hitch on a pack mule. I am wanting to purchase something in one of the western states (Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, or Utah) and I am wanting to be able to operate nearly year round( spring Bear, summer fishing and pack trips, fall deer and elk, winter lions). I am familiar with the forest service rules for the most part and have a decent understanding of what is involved with a special use permit. My experience with the BLM is less then what I have acquired with the Forest Service and I am less educated about their rules and regs regarding outfitting. My direct questions are, How do you get started? Where do you find camps and business for sale that don’t cost $500,000 or more? How do you go about financing them? I know that most people say you won’t make any money for five years, but I have a family to take of and I am concerned about making enough money for us to get buy with as I build a successful business. I am asking these questions to a lot of outfitters and guide school owners that I know as well. Thank you in advance. I welcome any and all advice and guidance.

Sounds like you have the experience, but my concern would be with a limit of 500K and 5 year payback. Getting land leases is a big deal now even though, you seem to have backcountry experience.

All I wanted to do when I came West was "guide", having been a fishing guide of 7 years. Yep, you start out as camp boy, cook, packer, etc. That's what killed it for me... Granted this was years ago!

Seasons, obtaining permits, etc should also play a part.

Not an easy industry/profession to break into at 500K.

Sorry to sound negative. You asked for any and all advice...

REM7600

No spring bear season in CO. You could do fishing but not hunting that time of year.

Yeah if Colorado was where we ended up I would probably push for more fishing and possible purchase a drift boat for summer use.

Sorry, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. What I meant was where are the camps and permits that DONT cost 500k and above. Half a million dollars is no small undertaking and I would much rather start out buying something that I could run myself with a few trusted individuals on an as needed basis. I dont have the financial capabilities to even entertain purchasing a 500,000 camp and permit. I am hoping to find something considerably smaller and easier to manage but not so small that my family starves

hh84,

No problem... I do, however, think you're gonna be looking at thin picking's and maybe some you may not want to entertain. Not trying to starve your fam! Just sayin', good luck! You might consider being an outfitter that does not provide "lodge services", although you've done backcountry so you know that that is not a pre-req.

I wish you luck as I have often thought of doing a high end lodge but it's not like it was in the 80's where companies paid all out to take care of their managers. Think Magnavox, Home Depot, Remington... I've hosted all three, as a guide.

Just my $.02 and I DO wish you the best in your quest!

REM7600

Thanks for the insight. I definitely don’t want to start out with a lodge situation. As much as I would love to run a multi faceted business that included a lodge and all of the amenities that went with it, I’m humble enough to know not to bite off more then I can chew right at this moment. My thoughts were to purchase something that could run from a trailhead. Back country pack in camps that could be set up and left for the season or incidental progressive type set ups that could Ben ran with smaller spring pole tents and moved easily from place to place. I wouldn’t mind doing gear drops and spot packs as well. I really hope that something will come to the surface that will fit the bill.

I don't have any experience... this is just me throwing out ideas.....

For your price range...

what about supplying "Do it yourself" hunters with some of the things they'd need. A DIY set up for the guys who want to basically go the unguided route, but who don't have the horses, wall tents, stoves etc.

You could provide the camp, general knowledge of the area, and even all out guide them if that's what they want. There's got to be people out there who want to hunt, but don't want to go the guided route... But also don't have all the equipment needed.

Not sure if there would be any money to be made. Just an idea.

-Jake

I'm wondering? what about a short course on ranging, judging game, and terrain, as well as a brief shooting session for the DIY'rs? What would that be worth? Along with providing terrain based maps and whatever knowledge you may have on an area?

Advising on a GPS unit and OnX Hunt to keep them safe?

Obviously, true Back country hunting is not recommended here as they may or may not be aware of the physical work necessary.

REM7600

PS: Boca -- I think I have a problem! (See your signature)

My grandpa got it done for 80+ years with a single shot 12 gauge, a single shot .22, and a .30-40 KRAG... That was stolen and he bought a remington 700 in .30-06 That I now have.

He hunted everything from squirrel to elk and never felt the need to have more.

You know what they say about the man with one gun.... There's a good chance he knows how to use it.

I have a bad habit of buying old/interesting/cheap deals. I play with them for a bit then move them for something else. Most recently I picked up a .458 Win Mag CZ550.... No idea what I'm going to do with the thing, but it is fun to shoot. It's Ohio Legal this year so I'll probably try to smack a doe with it.

-Jake

Funny, I picked up a 120 year old side by side 12ga for $200 recently!

Don't know if I'll use it or mount it permanently at my cabin. Twisted London Steel. Not Damascus, but pretty great wood, and an understandably pitted external steel.

Not trying to Hi Jack the post... HH84, I'd like to hear your response to my prior post.

TR

PS: Ohio - opening rifles is a big deal!

Have you contacted any of the state outfitter groups? I know here in Montana there is the Montana outfitter and guide association, MOGA, a group like this may be able to point you in the right direction as far as what may be available.

Interesting thread and some great ideas by a few members. I have no experience in guiding, but I have an opinion (you know the cliche`).

Anyway, I like the idea of supplying those who want an unguided or semi-guided hunt, but don't have the equipment and/or knowledge of the area, regulations, etc. I bet there are plenty of folks willing to dole out some bucks for experience and knowledge. A well designed web site with plenty of google search words will help tremendously. Your site needs to appear in the first few results and look professional with a lot of success pictures and stories. Could be minimal capital investment with this option. And, a stepping stone until funds come around.

My other thought is to find a current guide service who is planning to retire in five to ten years. Buy in a little, work off a little, and buy the remainder later. mthusker's recommendation could lead you towards possible entities.

The adage is true: It takes money to make money. You wont get bank financing on an outfit because the risk is way to high. You have some of the basic skills but if you are going to own an outfit in the west you better be able to call elk for archery hunters. Elk is the bread and butter of nearly all western outfits. You need to have a business mind also. I've seen some great outfits go under because the outfitter just didn't have a mind for business. You need to familiarize yourself with terms like ROI, net margin, gross margin, operational expenses fixed and variable, advertisement/margin ratio's, set asides, etc. You need to know the laws both state and federal and business. You need to network, and you simply must be a customer service orientated person. You need to ID trends not just in the market, but also in the community and industry, and be politically astute.

There are many things to consider before buying an outfit, and no, you don't have to starve the first few years if you buy right. You will need a sizable down payment because even in an owner finance situation permits and inventory will be assigned to you, and that typically means a lot of money. You will also need to look at where you are going to live and where you are going to keep stock. You can live away from where you outfit if the outfit has a permitted transfer camp at the trailhead where you can keep stock during hunting season, for example. In a owner finance situation you will be making serious payments a couple times a year to the previous owner, and if you don't you will lose the outfit and all you invested in it back to the original owner. You absolutely have to be able to manage your money. Keeping an outfit going is expensive, and to keep it going a certain amount of gross income must be set aside for unexpected chaos of life in the mountains. Clients only have a week to hunt and they have spent a lot of money for that week. No excuse will suffice for non-delivery of promises made.

In 2011 we got booted out of our area due to a fire four days before the first client arrived, it cost us thousands of dollars quickly buying new tents etc and setting up a secondary camp as our camps were already set when the evac order came down. We got through it, but without set aside capital we would have been doomed.

The best way to purchase an outfit is to be groomed for such by the outfitter himself. You need to go work for an outfit for a couple years and maybe a few of them, pick the one the best suits your clients needs and begin to learn the ins and outs of running an outfit. When you are comfortable you strike an agreement, put it in a legal contract, and take over the business. Finally, you can be the best guide in the world, have the best equipment and the best staff, but if you can't book hunts you'll starve. When purchasing an outfit vet them like a client would, if the have a marginal reputation you will struggle, reputation is everything in outfitting. Buy an outfit with a strong reputation, work for it a couple years, learn from the outfitter, and you will thrive if you always remain honest.

What the two of you are describing is called spot packing and gear dropping. These are situations where hunters, fishermen, or just outdoors enthusiasts will hire an outfitter for a portion of service and not opt for an all inclusive package.im familiar with these operations but whether or not one can perform these duties is usually outlined in the permits that come with a business

Thx
 

THX HH84... I was not aware of the terms mentioned. I would see the post above considering someone who is planning on getting out in the next 5-10 and guiding for them and making them aware of your goal. If that involves a contribution, at least it's not a half-mil in the short term!

Having worked as a guide at a lodge and, knowing the owner well, I also agree that the business mindset is a must have. In addition, I often call it "babysitting big kids" because you will run into that as well...

REM7600 :s3:

guiding on public land...

you don't need to own/lease land or own a camp or buy a business.

it's a passion, I don't think it's the get rich quick business idea.

good luck.

Outfitting or guiding on public ground can require licenses or permits to do so. Can be very limited depending on area. Often these permits are transferred and involved in the sale of the outfitting business.

You do have to have permits to guide on public land. These permits are issued by BLM and National Forest some places do have state owned leases. Outfitters do overlap in area's at times but mostly are giving certain areas to keep the peace so to speak. I don't know about other states but I'm sure National Forests maintain a standard policy on outfitting then it moves to individual regions within the rule book for different districts.

Here's the thing unless an outfitter gets in trouble and loses a permit or NF office opens up more use days your going to have to "buy in" the game.

You can't sell a permit that's not legal.

What happens is you buy a bunch of blue sky aka equipment and stock from the outfitter with the agreement between you and the Nation Forest that you will be taking over that outfitters permit as long as you qualify under the guidelines of the regional office to be a outfitter. This will only be a temporary use permit up to 5 years while your on probation until they deem you priority days. Sounds pretty scary starting out. Sure there's bad outfitters just like bad carpenters but to run a operation for a couple of decades you don't make mistakes that jeopardize your business.

Even legal outfitters have to have approval to do "pack in" into other outfitters areas.
A pack in is where the client provides all their own personal and camping gear. You are only providing the pack in service.
Drop camps is where you as the outfitter is supplying you equipment aka camp for the client in your area unless agreed upon by the adjoining outfitter to go into that area with a camp. It's just not worth the hassle to go through that mess just for one or two camps. Professionally what we as outfitters normally do is pass that client on to the outfitter that uses that area. Less headache in the long run.

Like I said not sure about other states or even other Nation Forest districts but I'm sure most of it is pretty standard.

Regardless of what anyone says those priority days that outfitters have acquired over years of being in business are like gold. You can't sell them but you can't just get in the door on public land unless someone dies or screws up. Hence it is a felony to illegally provide outfitting services without a permit on public lands. I have plenty of shade tree illegal outfitters I watch. Someday they will make a huge mistake and pay dearly.

I may not have all the information for every instance but your more than welcome to pm anytime on a situation if you planning on buying a business and have questions.

You can't always make everyone happy but those people were not going to be happy anyway. For the 5% bad there 95% that are coming for the adventure. The rest should of went to motel 6.

BE -- great info on the intricacies.

REM7600

I recommend that you spend a lot of time researching this. In an initial stage of research you should be looking to expose subjects that you need to learn about. For example, what kind of liability insurance do outfitters need to carry? For example, what happens when a personal injury lawyer is out on a hunt with your outfit, a mean horse bucks him off, and then he ends up a paraplegic. Isn't he going to sue? What other like issues are involved?


I recommend you find an actual outfitter and take him out to dinner and drinks and ask him to tell you about these elements of the business. Tell him in advance what your dream is and what you are thinking about doing. For a free dinner and drinks, the right kind of outfitter will talk with you. Actually, you ought to do this with three or four different outfitters. I'm particular that it be dinner and drinks and that it be a kind of one-on-one situation. I think you'll get better, unfiltered answers in this environment. There is enough time for the guy to unwind and get rolling. The drinks should help him to speak more candidly than he otherwise might.


If you are going to do this with borrowed money, I wonder what is involved in persuading a bank to lend the money? Is outfitting considered a good risk for a bank to invest in? What kind of collateral would they expect? Or another way of looking at this question would be how much skin would you need to be able to put in the game for them to be willing to lend you money? Maybe you need to put in $50,000 of your own cash money -- into assets (e.g., collateral that the bank can repossess and sell) not into operating expenses -- in order to get the bank to put in $50,000 for assets?


You might think about finding some outfitter that you can partner with. Maybe you could find some outfitter who would be willing to let you buy into the business with a 50/50 share? Maybe you could buy in with a 40/60 share (the original owner retains majority interest)? Depending on what your dream is, this might check the box. Maybe you could structure it so that you start out this way and have the option to buy out the partner's stake when he retires?

Good advice from Alsatian. Just be careful trying to PUSH drinks and keep yours reasonable. Some guys'/gals' have quit booze and want nothing to do with it.

REM7600