RE: Grizzly Bears
 

It would be no last episode, what if I used a 3" brenneke slug? Or my special 3 1/2" 0000 buck load? Hell I could use an armor piercing shotgun slug (thy do make them) that can cut through a quarter inch of steel!!

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

With the right slug, you would win! No doubt about it. Never was an argument on that one.

<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If You Ain't Hunted Alaska, You're Still Just Practicing <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

But these 3.5&quot; buckshot loads are more powerful than slugs.

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

One word...PENETRATION!

It's like a vacuum cleaner. Everybody brags about suction, but it is not suction that cleans, it's air flow...a whole different animal.

Same with killing charging bears, it's not power that kills, but rather penetrations, and bone breaking capabilities.

And wet phone books don't count.

<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If You Ain't Hunted Alaska, You're Still Just Practicing <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Wouldn't more power break bones better than less power, generally?

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

No NO NO NO NO! (did I mention &quot;NO&quot;?)

Too many other factors must be taken into account. Primary among them is the shape and composition of the material being used.

Tight though a buck shot pattern may be, it is still not a solid object, and will deform (as a whole), before exacting the required damage. This is precisely why buck shot is not used in self defense against bears.

And this is precisely why a hardened slug is.

If you're able, try this experiment at home. Take a five gallon metal bucket, and fill it to the rim with sand. Now fire your buck shot into the side of the bucket from 10 yards away.

Now do the same thing with an arrow, sporting a very sharp, two edged broad head.

This little experiment will show you the difference between surface damage, and penetration.

While your at it, fire one of my &quot;bear loads&quot; for the .44 mag into the same bucket. Then tell me which penetrated more, the buck shot, or the .44 :)

In short, more power does not equate to more penetration or more bone breaking ability. More power combined with the right projectile does.

Oh, and before any of you say it…I already know that no one has ever been attacked by a mad bucket of sand (unless it had a mad person behind it) :)

<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If You Ain't Hunted Alaska, You're Still Just Practicing <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Well go to the shotgun forum at thefiringline.com and try telling the guys there that a round of birdshot is NOT like a slug the first 10 yards. Also at space shuttle speeds, even dust can go right through titanium!!

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Who glues those little tiles like the space shuttle uses to that buckshot so it doesn't burn up in the atmosphere at those speeds?

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Blain,

Give me the name of the outfitter / guide that will allow you to hunt a Grizz with buckshot.

How much do you think the hunt will cost?

What did you get for your 20th birthday?

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Why, Skyhigh, you planning on treating me to a grizz hunt?

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

hmm...maybe we ought to video tape this one....funniest home videos, heck if ya win you could make oh enuf for maybe 2 more bear hunts with your buck shot!!! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>!




NOT LMAO!!!

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Blain,

There isn't a guide that will take you Grizz hunting with buckshot

You'll spend $20K + on a grizz hunt, and where you can afford a rifle, I don't see how you can afford the hunt

I'm doubting you've had a twentith birthday. The inability to be rational usually indicates the teen years.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Grizz hunts don't cost 20+k, moron. Even coastal brown bear hunts don't cost that much. It's not my fault your inavbility to reconize other methods of harvesting game puts your reasoning capacity far below that of an average man... but then again who said you were one anyway?

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

I was at Hasting's yesterday, and picked up a magazine on hunting bears. Black bears dominated the articles, but one in particular caught my attention.

This guy hunts bears with dogs, and he kills some BIG bears - 600-700 pounderes. BIG bears for black bears, and big animals in general. He's been hunting them for 20 years, and his choice of weapon ? Shotgun, 3 1/2 inch 00 buckshot. I kid you not, he said at close range nothing works better. I assume at close range, dogs baying a bear, thats what, 15-20 yards ??

Anyway, I am always open to facts, and this guy supported using buckshot on BIG bears. Whats a normal grizzly weigh and what is the difference in bone structure ? I dunno, just asking, and I still think its foolish to hunt big bears with buckshot, but this guy does it and hes very successful.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Stealthycat:
There will always be exceptions to the rule. I know a guide who uses a 223 to dispatch bears that are wounded but down. He is successful but stupid. It only takes one time for it not to work, to ruin your whole day.

Also black bears, even large ones, cannot be compared to grizzly. An average small inland griz weighs in at about 400 lbs. The coasties are much bigger.

Their bone structure, muscle density, fur and hide are all heavier duty than on any blacky.

This is why Fish and Game divides the big game into class one and class two. Griz are in class two, and blackies are in class one.

Regulations require different minimum weapon use for each class.

For example, there is a 40# min. bow weight for class one animals, and a 50# min. for class two.

Also found in class one are deer, wolf, wolverine, caribou, and dall sheep.

Besides griz, class two has Moose, Muskox, and Mt. Goat,

This picture should help you understand how fundamentally different they are.

<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If You Ain't Hunted Alaska, You're Still Just Practicing <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Grizz hunts don't cost 20+k, moron<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>Blain: I really can't believe it took 6 pages for you to finally break a forum rule. Please read the following statement carefully.
If you acually try to stop a full grown Grizzly with a 12ga. and buckshot, either in a relaxed or charging senario you are one of the following.
1. A complete idiot
2. A moron
3. Not right in the head
4. All of the above

Now, can you tell the difference between my statement and yours? What part of this don't you comprehend? &gt;If you attempt to stop a charging Grizzly with buckshot, you stand a better chance of dieing than if you held one of the above mentioned magnums.&lt; Dieing is a piss poor way to try and prove a point pal. Its not like you can say afterwards &quot;it worked on wet phone books&quot;.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Stupid is and Stupid was. I'll be hunting the bait pile, also called whats left of the incompetent rookie hunter. HA,HA, boy what funny ideas, also dangerous.

Hunt smart, hunt safe

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Gang,

This has been an extremely interesting (I got in trouble at work for laughing) forum, I feel fortunate to have finally found it. Since Blain hasn't refuted age, lets all assume that enters into the equation. I've not hunted bears of any kind so I'm no expert, but common sense would say follow Thaninator's (experienced bear hunter) advice. Thaninator if you can combine some halibut and salmon fishing with a griz hunt I'm coming up. We can pick through scat for Blains remains.

As a guy who trained for UFC fighting I'll take Blain's challenge. Anybody have a video camera and insurance for that matchup? Ha ha ha. I'll take all bets, too. Maybe I'll make enough to pay for the above mentioned trip.

No seriously, thanks for the yucks and this all goes back to the threads on other forums regarding the lack of commmon sense in the youth of today.

Stealthy, its always good to see a poster who looks for data/resources and keeps an open mind.

Happy hunting, be it phonebooks or bears, and &quot;Uncle&quot; Than let me know about the trip possibility.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Well whats been goin on in here? It's been awhile since I was in here.:)

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Stealthycat,
I am a professional hound hunter. we use dogs to hunt Black Bear and Lions. Shooting a treed bear has no resemblence to shooting a charging irate bear on the ground. When I'm hunting with dogs I use a .45LC or .44 mag My partner uses a .357. I wouldn't dream of using a pistol for hunting bears on the ground, totally different scenario. When a bear is treed I have the time to wait for the perfect shot. I always shoot them in the neck with a pistol. On the ground during a charge scenario you take what you can get. Sometimes it's good sometimes it's not. I also carry a .44 mag hot loaded with 320 grain hard cast bullets in AK that is in addition to either a slug loaded shot gun or a .375 or .45/70. The reason I carry a pistol is that it's always with you, at some point during the day you'll have to set your long gun down.

Blain,
I've got a sneakin suspicion that your Wyoming hunt story is a huge load of B.S.. If you won't give the name of your outfitter at least give us the area of Wyoming you were hunting. In all the years that I've been hunting in bear country AK NM CO WY MT I've only once ever had to shoot a bear and that was one I called in with a cow call. And the truth be known he was probably bluffing. The only other nasty I've ever had was last season when my brother got swatted by a blackie during elk season and that was over before anyone got a chance to do anything it happened so fast! But the one and only time you went on a hunt in Bear country it was a friggin disaster charging grizz and all. Sorry bud I just ain't buying that one.

Edited by - surestrike on 02/05/2002 18:15:29

Edited by - surestrike on 02/05/2002 18:29:40

Edited by - surestrike on 02/06/2002 10:16:40

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Surestrike - I don't doubt you for a minute. I saw the article, read it, and thought it might have some revelance to the &quot;from squirrels to elephants&quot; debate. I have zero experience with bears, I admit that up front. Just adding to the conversation .....

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

I WONDER IF TUSSEY STILL CHECKS THIS THREAD I THOUGHT IT WAS ABOUT HIM WANTING TO GO ON A BROWN BEAR UNT, NOT BLAIN AND HIS BUCKSHOT. DON'T GET ME WRONG I FIND IT FUNNY THAT THIS DEBATE WILL NEVER END TELL EITHER HE SHOWS US, OR HE IS KILLED.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Look it is a FACT that buck**** is very powerful at close range, how the heck can you compare buckshot to a .22? That is INSULTING, there is NO comparison, absolutely none. I would like the name and date of that black bear magazine, as I would like to purchase it.

So you trained for UFC, eh? Maybe I should inform you that I have trained several times with Dan &quot;THE BEAST&quot; Severn... naw, let you find that out on your own ;)

Bottom line is buckshot is more then powerful enough to do the job, you don't like it? Too bad that's the truth.

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

I hate to say it guys but Blain is right.

This one time time while I was at band camp we were walking in the woods. We came up on this HUGE Griz which was reading a wet telephone book. With one shot the telephone book was history. I blasted the bear with a second shot (armor preicing round) and nothing. The bear had it's force field up causing a miss. Thank goodness that Dan &quot;The Beast&quot; was there to scare the bear away.

Sorry guys (including Blain) this post is just too funny! Thanks for the fun.

Blain relax, you can have your own opinion and it doesn't have to be the same as mine or ANYONE elses.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

DEER THUG THAT WAS TO FUNNY!!!!!

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Thats hilarious, DeerThug, truly hilarious. I was always told that bears did something else in the woods, but I guess they read phonebooks, or maybe they wipe with them?

Blain, we all have pictures with Dan Severn, mine happen to be with him at a local strip club after a &quot;fight&quot;. Actually the fight was the worst one of the night as it was pure paycheck only fight, he was fighting his buddy Pat Milichek. I'm glad the other fights were good because it was really weak, neither was really serious in the octagon.

Anyway, I digress... I'm sure you're an incredible hand to hand fighter especially if they just tightened your braces. Nothing meaner than a teenager with sore teeth. I knew you couldn't pass up the UFC bit, easy pickins, my son, easy pickins.

Hey what about the halibut, salmon and bear Uncle Thad? I could trade if for geese, ducks, sturgeon, and hogs (I'll even throw in a coyote). All with buck**** if you like, beeehaha.

What is the size difference between the big griz and the polars? How much different is the brisket and skull structures?

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Sorry, double post.

Edited by - MATTITO on 02/06/2002 17:07:40

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

MATTITO:
Thanks for the vote of confidence...just so you know, I'm a trained fighter. I trained with Grizzly Adams, and O'l Moe (the guy who took on the brownie with a pocket knife) <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

If one is to maintain one's reputation as a true Alaskan, one must have at least one freezer that is always full of fish and game.

I, desperately needing to feed my ego, and feel superior to the &quot;average&quot; Alaskan, went out and bought TWO large freezers! I keep both of them full of salmon, halibut, moose, caribou, sheep, and the occasional bear.

Consequently, anyone that hunts with me, ends up with a some of the above, and must leave a contribution paying homage to the ego boosting freezers.

The Polar Bear is the largest carnivore on land. He too can be killed with substandard weaponry, but you had better have a pack of sled dogs at your disposal when doing it.

I have a friend from Kaparuk security who was involved with an incident on the Slope a while back.

The polar bear, in its never ending quest for food, had come upon a building that had food smells in it. While the men inside where lounging around, it decided to see what was for dinner, and blithely broke the window, and climbed in.

Working for a Politically Correct company, the men inside did not have proper weapons do defend themselves, and thus were at the mercy of the bear...except for one rebellious new arrival, who had just happened to smuggle his 12 gauge loaded with slugs (sorry Blain), into the facility.

The shotgun was propped up against the wall in his bedroom, and he had to get by the bear, while it was eating on his friend, and then he had to lay down low on the floor to shoot the bear, so that slug would travel upward, thus minimizing the chance of hitting the bears dinner.

The 12 gauge with SLUGS did the job, and lives were saved.

That's the mentality of the Polar Bear, it is a hunter, and man is just another form of protein...like seal and beluga whale, but hopefully, with les fat :)

When you combine this with it's musculature and density, it becomes a formidable opponent. If you can ever get a hold of the video &quot;Man Hunter&quot; which is about a bow hunt for a polar bear, by dogsled, it will shed a lot of light on the subject for you.

In my estimation, a fight between an average Polar Bear and an average Griz, unlikely though it may be, would not last long. The Polar bear would win. When you start bringing the large coastal browies into the arena, the Polar Bear will have a harder time of it, but will still prevail in the end.

I don't have specific skull or brisket dimensions for you, but hopefully you get the idea.

Blain:
The comparison between buck shot and a .223, is a very apt one, when speaking of defense weapons against grizzly bears. Both are inadequate...though I'll give you that the buck shot is a bit more potent than a .223, unless it's on full auto, with a large capacity mag...But isn't kinda like fantasizing?

Superstrike:
You sound like a man that knows his stuff. I agree whole heartedly about a pistols role in bear country. I too use a .44 mag (may be switching to a 454 soon) for defense against bears, only because it is the most powerful thing that I wish to carry every where I go while in the woods.

Your 320 gr load sounds exactly like the one I use.

<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If You Ain't Hunted Alaska, You're Still Just Practicing <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

You know Severn? Yeah right he is no the kind to go to strip clubs, he blushes at like the smallest things. Let's see you put your money where your mouth is, BSer. Show us all the pic which supposedly shows you and Severn (yea right) in a strip club. If you can't back that up then you are turly just a BSing kid out for a little fun as we all know you are. Do you even have any amature titles? Want'a be hunter/fighter. You ain't nothing but a BSing fool.

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Okay- ya asked for proof....I'm telling ya the truth about band camp.
http://www.geocities.com/thunderheadpro/bandcamp.html

Edited by - DeerThug on 02/06/2002 15:26:24

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

ROFLMAO, that was so bloody funny, lol.

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Thaninator, thank you very much for the information. I'd heard such about the polar bears, but having first hand knowledge is another thing. My father-in-law came home with 100's of pounds of extremely tasty halibut meat two years ago, and I've been dying to make the trip up ever since.

DeerThug, Very nice, but you need to add some buckshot into the mix somehow, you know maybe a shot-up pit-bull running away. Just brainstorming.

Blain, Don't you get it they're not laughing with you they're laughing at you. Don't you get the band camp remarks? The other posters are suggesting you've lost your credibility with your insistence on the buck shot even though you've never personally used it to knock down a very large bear. Didn't you read the first page of posts, they knew this tirade would come about. I've never shot at a bear which is why you read that none of my posts suggest a weapon or bullet of choice. In fact I never would have posted a single thought if it hadn't been so funny that virtually all the other posters agree to disagree with you, the lone dissenting vote. In fact they have been very, very polite and I commend them. Obviously some of these hunters have been in situations requiring said weaponry and we have to trust their opinions. I personally don't want to be tracked by a griz while I'm riding my ATV, so those individuals who've been there must have more credibility than you or I on the topic of this forum.

Regarding the UFC, following the Dan Severn, Pat Miletich fight we went to the club (with local talent) that was promoting the event in Davenport, IA (Miletich's training facility is nearby). I can give you names of other attendees, and I can start to scrounge around the house for the pics too. I'm not saying Dan was taste testing the talent but he was definitely there. This isn't a urinating contest but you can get the information for my email address by clicking on my name at which point I'd be glad to give you more information on flights and things out west. You're absolutely right I didn't fight in the professional ranks, the going rate was roughly $50 to fight and $50-100 more if you won. I'm no dummy but I make more money as a doctor than as a UFC fighter, even though I really like to match skills in the ring. However, I did spend countless hour sparring and training with the likes of Ben Greive(sp) (was an up and coming UFCer) who was a good kickboxer but couln't grapple his way out of a phonebooth. The last time I talked to Ben he was going back to kickboxing because the fights paid in the $700-800 range. Write me an email so I can give you all sortid details without boring the guys who want to learn about hunting/defending against bears.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Mattito I am trying to put a video together
&quot;Blain's BIG Game Buckshot Bananza&quot;
I noticed that you posted you are a doctor so I would like to personly invite you along.
I have been talking to Thaninator about it
He say's the ground is very hard in Alaska
and would hate to half to try and dig a 6'deep hole. With you on board I just might be able to convince him. Let me know

Deerthug my stomach hurts from the laughter
Thanks

Mike

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

OK I'm in but I must warn you my specialty is Microbiology not Emergency Trauma Surgery. I can still suture if necessary, it might leave a scar. I'm not sure that is good enough as people must love him because he's pretty not because he is smart. I don't know what's worse for I'm the reverse. Darn.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

THAT WAS TO FUNNY!!!! THANKS FOR POSTING IT

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Mattito, just click on my name ;)

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Blain - The current issue, the one on the newstands.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Thanks, I'll be sure to check it out. That hunter knows what he is talking about.

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Thain,
I spent 3 winters up on the slope(Dead Horse) flying scientific expedition support off shore.(AKA aural accustic listening posts) The guys out on the ice pack were required to carry a rifle any time they left the camp perimeter. They carried .375's or 06's depending on the camp. A polar bear is one of the worlds most aggresive animals.I guess thay kinda have to be to survive in those conditions. They have my full respect. In the 3 winters I worked up there I can remeber several incidents of bear shootings out on the Ice. Do you remeber about 10 years ago when that kid was killed and partially eaten up in Shishmaref. The Polar bear that took him ate him right on the beach and then tried to defend his kill against a hoard of armed men. Off the subject I know but that Kuparak story just brought back some memories.
I'm heading up to Galena and points north this year for Moose where's the big uns gonna be? I'm thinking about hunting them with my stevens .410 with buckshot that ougtta keep them bears away. (Sorry just trying to keep with the subject matter here)

RE: Grizzly Bears
 

Superstrike:
I do remember that incident...pretty nasty business.

Do you remember hearing about the guy who set the world record with a recurve bow, hunting a man eating polar bear. They did this by dogsled, and had all kinds of exciting moments.

On one such moment, a polar bear was tracking the sled, because of the food in it, and had just about caught up to it, when it broke into a full out run.

The snow machiner, having seen the bear coming from a ways off, was frantically trying to get the machine started (60 below zero out), and just managed to do so, as the bear caught up.

The end result of this encounter was that the sled had a big chunk taken out of it, where the bear gave it a swipe with its paw.

Kinda too close for comfort if you know what I mean.

You and I are in complete agreement on polar bears. I have the utmost respect for them, as well as their lesser cousins the grizzly/brown bear. I think anyone that has spent time around these animals feels the same.

If you want to fly up for a spring bear hunt, I know the hot spots...can't tell you here, or we'd have too much company :)

As for moose, drop me a line when it gets a little bit closer to season...I've got a couple of good places in mind, and have never struck out.

If you're looking for a partner for one hunt next year, I wouldn't mind talking about it.
I'm normally hunting for about two solid months, but the hunt is broken down into a series of smaller (typically 10 days each) hunts, so that we can cover a lot of Alaska.

It would be easy for me to include you in one of these ten day hunts, especially if you're flying <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

My specialty is calling them in close...can't wait to arrow one with my new bow <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

One last thing...don't you think your being a tad unsportsman like, taking such advantage of bears, by using a .410 with buck shot? Like, give 'em a chance already <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If You Ain't Hunted Alaska, You're Still Just Practicing <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - Thaninator on 02/08/2002 01:18:58