why over pay
 

So like many other hunters this time of year I have cabin fever. So lots of time spent looking at dream hunts I can not afford etc. I have noticed some web sites and adds on craigs list showing a break down of cost for these big game hunts. example 2 hunters should pay one guide like $250 a day (or more) each and he guides them both at the same time. The guide is being paid $500 per day ! Why if you both kill your animals on say by day three do they feel you should continue to pay for the remaining days on say a 7 day hunt ???? So the two of you are paying this guide $500 a day for days your not even being guided. On top of that they are you expecting you to pay them a 15 to 20% tip. does anyone see logic in this ???

Yes and no. I can see how if we both went on a guided hunt and both got our animal on the 1st day of a 7-day hunt, the guide wouldn't be able to just bring another client in for that next 6 days or 7 if he was trying to book another 7-day hunt. I can see their point of view on that, especially since I highly doubt wither of us would go on some guaranteed hunt with animals in some kind of pen.

Now the daily rate for 2 hunters instead of one, is a different story. Most of the guided hunts I've seen charge a set rate for one hunter and a discount of just a few hundred dollars if a 2nd hunter or buddy goes with you. That isn't much of a discount and seems to be designed to discourage people from booking a hunt for 2 hunters instead of 1. I can see charging a little extra for 2 hunters (more food, horses, tents, etc.) but darn near double does not seem like any kind of a deal at all. JMHO but that's how I've seen this.

I was only referring to his time guiding. The food, horses, tents, etc are a separate issue. I still do not feel its fair to pay a man or women for something they do not work for. When I go to work and I get a job done in 3 days instead of 5. I do not get paid for 5 days, I am told I have no more work for you this week so see ya Monday and enjoy your next two days off.

That is a very valid point. OTOH, a guide is only working his guiding job during the hunting season while you are presumably working year round at your job. Not saying you don't have a point (you do), just saying I can see (and have heard) the guide's point of view also. Technically, it's the outfitter making those big bucks and the guide is probably working day to day like you do in your job.

I think you guys are getting guiding and outfitting mixed up. They are not the same in that an outfitter is the person you book your hunt with. Normally that should be done with a written contract with all the specifics of what the hunt will include. Most hunts, unless they are for something like sheep that can go for $20K+ for one person and one or more guides, is for one guide to two persons. If you want to have a guide all to yourself there is an extra charge for that. Most guides work for an outfitter that probably doesn't pay a wage that would be considered enough to support possibly more than themselves and, therefore, they rely a lot on tips from their hunters. Those tips vary a lot depending on how much the person feels the guide did to provide a good hunt and put them on animals to the best of their ability. It may be 10% or maybe 30% of what the outfitted hunt cost depending on the means the hunter has. I can tell you that none of these guides or even the outfitters are getting rich in the short seasons they are working with and what it costs to run an outfit.

I believe most guides and outfitters also do other things during the year to make money. I know the guides have to and agree there not paid all the money. But I do not believe this is something they should try and make a years salary in a few months, and based on some of those hunt cost out there that is what there trying to do. Its a sad truth but hunting big game has become a rich mans sport. The fees each state charges for permits and licences is also nuts.

I guess I would have to argue that it's not up to you what you think they should or shouldn't be doing the rest of the year to try and make a living. Would you tell a guy that is a roofer what he should or shouldn't do the rest of the year when the weather doesn't allow him to make a living? You must not have any idea what all it takes to be an outfitter. I'll tell you a few of their costs that they have to get back in just a few months of work. They are: liability insurance, fess paid to the BLM or USFS if they outfit on public land, lease fees if they outfit on private land, advertising, maintaining a stable full of horses or mules year around or paying a goodly fee if they rent stock, tack maintenance or rental costs, vehicle costs and upkeep, tents and the other camp gear that wears out through regular use, etc. Those are just a few of the things I can think of right off the top of my head. That is the reason that guided hunts cost what they do and, yes, it is getting to be a rich man's sport if you would try to go on a guided hunt every year. I have only been on two guided mule deer hunts in my life and probably won't be taking any more, but not because of the cost involved. It's more that a DIY hunt is what I prefer if at all possible and that's what I do every year in Wyoming every Fall. I can go out there with my trailer for a couple months and probably not spend more that $2K with a lot of that being for fuel.

The value of the service (outfitter or guide) is what is supported by the market. Whether we as individuals can afford that is based on our circumstance and priorities. As soon a tip becomes mandatory or a set price is determined; it becomes a fee for service, not a gratuity. Gratuity is a self determined amount to show appreciation. One thing to consider about guides and how much they work is that many (not all) do some scouting with or even independent of the outfitter. It is time consuming and requires fuel, supplies, etc. I expect it is rare for them to get paid for that.

I do not see anywhere in my words that I stated they should or shouldn't do anything. I said I believe that they do work other places. Its not my place or yours to say what someone should do. The same as a roofer I wont tell him to look for other work during the season he can not be roofing , its his choice to do with his time as he pleases. But I also will not pay a roofer to work on my house that cost what doing 5 houses should cost. I will not refer him either. If you read my original post all I stated was I read a breakdown of cost and wondered why a daily guiding fee was fair to be charged for days not guiding.

wyomingtrapper I believe you hit the nail on the head . They charge as much as the feel they can get based on the demand of the market. I do see in my trade (hvac) its more common now to see job prices get higher and higher not because the cost of doing the job is going up but if people will pay it lets keep rising it.

It sure looks like what I bolded in this post of yours is you trying to tell them what they should or shouldn't do to make a living! I have never seen what you have described about paying a guide so much per day and then having to pay them for days left on a hunt even though a person may have filled his tag on the first day or two of a hunt that is scheduled for a week. Normally you make a down payment on a hunt to the outfitter to lock the hunt dates in and then have to pay the remainder of the cost for the hunt at a certain time before the hunt date or at the time you get there to begin the hunt. Unless you pay an extra fee to that outfitter for a separate guide it's a 2 hunters per guide situation. A guide the outfitter provides is not paid anything by the hunter other than a tip at the end of the hunt. Some say that tip should be a percentage of what the actual hunt cost just like you would pay a waitress based on your dinner cost. Some say pay whatever you feel you can afford based on your means and what the guide did on the hunt for you. That's what I did on the hunt I just did in Wyoming. The hunt cost was $2900 for five day with lodging, food, horses and one guide for the two of us. My buddy got a nice buck the first morning and I got mine the 4th morning. I gave the guide a tip of $350 and I have no idea what John gave him, but it was probably more because he makes 5 times what my salary was before I retired in 2002.

Guiding is usually not a full time job for most guides. $500 a week is peanuts for a man that knows his business and working 14 to 16 hours a day for months on end. Really simple answer here if you think outfitters are over paid don't use them.

My advice as well. I don't see the point of trying to lowball an outfitter, if he's too pricey I just move on.

If you do your homework and look around, you can probably find a no-frills outfitter that can work within your budget, some are as good as the big-name outfitters, some better, some worse. Usually a young guy just getting into the outfitting business will keep his prices low to draw new business, and is more aggressive because he's trying to make a name for himself. There is always the option of trying a DIY hunt on public land.

Personally, I work a second job and do frugal things like buying cheap beer and packing a lunch each day to save a few bucks to afford a guided hunting or fishing trip or two each year.

I would add that the outfitter probably would rather you didn't come ,if your to cheap to pay what others are willing to pay.

I think some of you guys are taking me wrong here. I never meant for this to be about bashing outfitters . I specifically used the word guide and only was referring to what I read on a break down of cost sheet. I do not remember exact numbers but it showed a total for the hunt then broke it down as like tag cost, camp cook, horse fee, etc. it had on there something like $250 a day for a guide per person. So all I asked is why pay for 7 days of guiding if only use the guide for 3. doesn't look like it was a good idea for this outfitter to show the cost breakdown. Most sites do not show this and it just has a total and yes requires a deposit and then a balance at the end. Just bored with winter guys thought I would ask a simple question. I also believe there is a difference between being cheap and being foolish how we choose to spend our money. Like buying a ford when you could spend the same and get a Chevy.

Lucky you made that last sentence the way you did. If it was reversed, I would have been all over you again! :party0005:

Smitty,

You don't have the right job. I was an auto mechanic for the first 25 years of my working career. We worked flat rate. Every job had a time it should take to do. If I did a job that should take 5 hours to do, and I did it in 3 hours. I still get paid the 5 hours for that job.

A lot of jobs are like that. UPS is one. They know how long it takes to deliver a package. If a driver takes 12 hours of packages and does it in 8 hours they get paid for the 12 hours. That's why those guys are always moving fast.

Personally, I wouldn't pay for a hunt, but lots of guys do it and it's their business to do as they please. The guides have set the rates and if you sign up just pay and be happy you got game early. It's better than doing the whole hunt and getting nothing. Then you'd really feel cheated.

I still have a big question mark on this whole deal about paying the guide. Unless you don't go through an outfitter and go straight to a guide, which would be very uncommon, you're not paying anyone the fee other than the main outfitter that the guy works for. I have no idea what a guide makes, but I imagine it varies a lot depending on their age/experience, knowledge, etc. The poor guys are up well before the hunters to get horses ready, etc. and then have to take care of everything when the day is done. That would mean they might only get 4 or 5 hours of sleep a night and I really don't know how they can do that day after day. Just on my short hunt getting up at 3 to 4 AM when all I had to do was get dressed and grab some breakfast was rough. When we got up the guide usually was already putting the saddled horses in the trailer and raring to get going to the trail head. I guarantee when you break it down into an hourly wage they are probably not making what a burger flipper at MacDs does!

I have a method that makes it easier. I get up at 4am every day of the year. Once your body adjust to it, it's easy.

Guides may do the same thing.

You are also looking at the price breakdown wrong. Your are not paying a "per day" fee, you are paying for the hunt, one price, for the hunt. Now if the hunt is over in 1 day, 3, 5 or you don't tag out, you had your hunt and paid what the hunt costs.

I have yet to see a guided hunt that the hunter pays the guide, and I've never seen a guide make anywhere close to what you are saying at $250-$500/day. Guides get paid by the outfitter and make more like $100-$200/day, not per hunter per day, but per day.

Essentially there's three ways work is paid for:
- hourly where you're right, you get paid for the time spent. This is not how hunts work

- Salary where you get the same pay regardless of how many hours you work (no OT!). These tend to be higher $ jobs

- By the job (like the above mechanic said). This is how hunting works, you pay for the hunt.

We all know you're a stud Pete, LOL! My buddy in Wyoming is the same way as you are. Up at 4:30AM dang near every day of the year to head for work or out to hunt. It will be interesting now that he just retired in November to see if he continues that schedule even though he won't be working any more. All I can say is that the older I get the more I hate early morning wakeups.

That is for sure Muley Hunter I am definitely in the wrong line of work. But I have been doing this for 31 years now and stuck in a rut.

I find the older I get the less sleep I need. I couldn't sleep in if I wanted to. I've tried. I don't even own an alarm clock. At 4am my eyes pop open.

Let me throw another question in on the tipping aspect. I recently did an elk hunt where I didn't draw a tag and had to pay the outfitter additional for the landowner voucher. Should I base my tip to the guide on the total amount paid the outfitter or the amount that I would have paid if I would have drawn the state tag?

My thought would be the cost of the hunt, not including the tag. That's what you normally tip on, the hunt cost.

+1 It's based on the service provided, not the tag cost.

tip cost
 

OK guys you pulled me back in, so are you guys that use outfitters really tipping using a percentage ratio ? and what percent ratio are you using ?

There is no really set percentage that I'm aware of. It's all up to the financial ability of each individual and how they feel the guide did to provide a good hunt. I read one guide say that he really respected one of his clients that had scrimped for a long time to pay for a hunt he was on and couldn't give much of a tip. However, the guide said he received a gracious letter from the guy thanking him for the hunt and about how much that hunt meant to him. He said it warmed his heart and put a tear in his eye because the letter was much more than any money he received from clients that had plenty of money to spend.

OK that being said it should not be based on what the outfitter charges for the hunt or what the tags cost. If you have a great experience tip what you feel is fair and if you have a lousy experience no tip. and somewhere in the middle for an in between experience. I would agree to that logic. As far as for that letter it sounds to me that guide is a pretty decent guy.

Standard is 15% on cheaper trips, and 10% on a high-end trip. Obviously more if you felt the guide went above & beyond, and less if you think they slacked off.

And where, Sir, did you come up with those percentages? I've been around a long time and never seen those numbers or any others, other than people theorizing on threads such as this. What do you call a "cheap trip" and what is a "high-end trip", as I've also never seen those terms mentioned anywhere before, or is that just your philosophy?

Yes I also would like to know what you consider a high end trip and what is a cheaper trip ? I believe everyone has a different opinion of that one.

Dear Lord, someone forgot to chain the junkyard dog up again.:confused0024: This has been my experience over the years (probably 10 guided hunts and 100 charter fishing trips). Charter boat captains where I have fished (Cape Cod, Chesapeake, NJ shore, Outer Banks, Florida, Lake Erie, Ontario, Huron & Michigan, etc) usually post a sign with tipping policies on their boats, 15-20%. I realize this is a hunting forum, not a fishing forum, so here are a couple links I dug up quickly.

http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/...-hunting-guide

http://www.huntthenorth.com/guidetipping.html

http://www.doublethunting.com/faqs/

I also have friends who guide, and they claim they make almost nothing and depend on tips to survive. They've told me the industry standard is about 15%, some folks are more generous than others, if you question my claim, let me know and I will e-mail you their name, rank, serial number, and e-mail addresses. :rolleyes: They've also told me they remember the stiffs more than they remember those who do tip, if they ever come back.

My theory on what is a "cheaper" trip? Anything under $2,000. It's all relative though, as mentioned, if I feel like they gave 110%, I'll leave a nicer gratuity, if I feel like their heart wasn't in it, I'll leave a smaller gratuity. As far as leaving a smaller tip on a more expensive hunt, the guide/cooks/outfitters know that not everyone is a high-roller, most of us save all year to go on a $5,000+ elk or moose hunt, and they are not expecting a $750 tip, but would be thrilled if you left $500.

The "standard" is 10-15% based on my experience talking to outfitters (guides will most likely be shy discussing tips). Where this standard came from? Beats me, my only guess is a carry over from the other "standard" of tipping a waitress/waiter 15% on a meal. However in that case it's actually coded into the pay laws.

Guides make little money, often only $100/day. for me the tip when hunting has TONS of variables:

- type of hunt? I've been on a guided whitetail hunt where morning and evening they loaded up the truck with 5-6 guys and the "guide" drove you around and dropped you off at stands, then came back and got you at the end of the sit. Vs a guided elk hunt where you are with the guide 14 hours a day, calling glassing stalking etc.

- cost of the hunt. A $25K sheep hunt vs a $200/day deer hunt

also don't forget the cooks, horse wranglers, packers etc.

It can get expensive quick

It is however part of the game.

so you spend $5000 on a hunt $700 on tags then your expected to tip the guide $500 to $1000 (per the outfitter) extra for something you already paid for dearly. Does not seem right to me !!
In my opinion the outfitter needs to pay his guides, cooks, etc. a better wage, and not guilt the client into making things right with the people he hires. I understand the guide being upset when he works his tail off and doesn't get much back to show for it but he needs to take it up with the guy who hired him. I read a story the other day about a waitress in Florida who has been arrested and being prosecuted for changing tip amounts on credit card tickets. She stole over $1000 before she got caught. She said she felt some customers did not tip her good enough so she felt it was justified. If you don't feel your being paid fairly take it up with the person who hired you. Its not fair to get upset with the customer, they already paid. These employers of jobs like this need to give more to there people and a little less in there own pockets.

There are many high end restaurants around here and other places I have been that include the price of the tip in the bill. It will tell you on the menu that it is done. Some will only do that for large parties eating together and some for all customers. They are going to get you one way or the other, if they do away with tipping and pay the staff more you will still pay about the same because they will increase the price of the food, or the hunt or whatever.

I've never hired a guide in North America and don't ever intend to but I have done so in Canada and Africa because the law requires it. In both Canada and Africa I have done 2x1 trips and they work well if the other hunter is someone you know and trust. In my case it was always my father. I had no problem letting him take the shot if he wanted and he had no trouble letting me take the shot if I wanted. The scenario isn't ideal for most hunts but for family members who get along it works well and it can cut a lot of $$$ off the tab.

As to tipping, I always budget 10-15% but I don't always give that much. There are a lot of variables that come into play.

I agree smitty0538 and there was no need to be snarky Uncle Nicky, since nobody other than you may be an expert on this and everyone is just asking and answering questions! I guess I was more than generous on the hunt I went on in Wyoming last September. It was a $2900 horseback hunt for 5 days that lasted 4 and the outfitter was my guide, as well as for my buddy. I tipped him $350 when IMHO since he did the work himself, his wife did the cooking, and he already got the entire $2900. I probably didn't need to offer much more than a thank you for a job well done. However, we had a great time, killed two real nice mulies, and we were treated like family. I'm a DIY guy and that was only the second and probably last guided hunt I've done in 63 years of hunting, so it does sound like I would meet with your approval for what I gave him.

Sad but true old timer they will try but not get it from me, that is why I do not go to high end restaurants, Pro football games any more etc. I can easily afford these things and high $$$$ outfitted hunts. But I will not out of principle because than I feel I am part of the problem. Maybe if more people would do like I do these things we once enjoyed to do or would like to enjoy would come back down to be a reasonable cost. These hunts should not just be for the rich and sadly they have become that way. Some of us choose to pay these high prices and it then becomes the norm . That hurts the regular guy who would love to do it but cant afford the inflated price.
And thanks top gun 3006

I look at it this way...a guided trip is a luxury, most of us can probably get by with a DIY scenario, maybe just need a nudge in the right direction. But like flags stated, if you plan to hunt in Canada (which I have a number of times), you have to hire an outfitter.

But it's not much different than eating your dinner each night; you can cook at home for cheap and clean up all the pots, pans & dishes; spend a little more and get take out; or go all out and sit down and be waited on, and leave a tip. If I can't afford or don't want to pay the tip, then I don't dine out.

Like I mentioned, I have a few friends who guide and run charter boats, and I've been to their homes, NOBODY is getting rich in that business, once you factor in the cost of leases, equipment, gas, food, guides, insurance....

By no means am I a rich man, but if you do your homework, you can find decent outfitters who are willing to work with your budget, but it does take some effort and maybe compromises.