308 Elk Ammo
01-12-2012, 03:12 PM
#11
Fork Horn
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kittitas, Wa.
Posts: 462
I guess I don't understand what a less than perfect shot is!!! I killed a elk or two mostly with the old winchester silvertip, only have 5 left!!
we hunt the wide open sagebrush of Central Washington, where U need to be prepared to shoot when U see the animals cause normally they a long way off and gettin ready to move if they ain't already moving, they're going straight away, quartering away, broadside, comin straight at ya or quartering to wards ya I have never had one of those cheap O skimpy bullets fail me yet! whether it be a Remington, winchester or what ever else I bought offn the shelf!!! The only bullet I did have a catastrophic failure with was a nosler partition on a mule deer at about 100yds, was pickin chunks of metal out of that deer from the neck to the butt!!!! Boys ya been sold a bill of goods ....ya don't need fancy bullets fer deer and elk.....they don't kill'm any deader than a cheap bullet as U seem they think they are!! them cheap ones have killed more animals that the costy ones!!!! just sayin!!!!!!
we hunt the wide open sagebrush of Central Washington, where U need to be prepared to shoot when U see the animals cause normally they a long way off and gettin ready to move if they ain't already moving, they're going straight away, quartering away, broadside, comin straight at ya or quartering to wards ya I have never had one of those cheap O skimpy bullets fail me yet! whether it be a Remington, winchester or what ever else I bought offn the shelf!!! The only bullet I did have a catastrophic failure with was a nosler partition on a mule deer at about 100yds, was pickin chunks of metal out of that deer from the neck to the butt!!!! Boys ya been sold a bill of goods ....ya don't need fancy bullets fer deer and elk.....they don't kill'm any deader than a cheap bullet as U seem they think they are!! them cheap ones have killed more animals that the costy ones!!!! just sayin!!!!!!
01-12-2012, 04:09 PM
#12
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 9,557
I've been using Partitions since the 50's with no failures. It's an old design that still works. I have no reason to try any of the newer bullets.
Ammo is the cheapest part of the hunt. No need to try and save money there.
My .02
Ammo is the cheapest part of the hunt. No need to try and save money there.
My .02
01-12-2012, 04:26 PM
#13
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,143
01-18-2012, 02:47 AM
#16
Typical Buck
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 797
I've always had a problem with the Elmer Keith Raking Theory. The less than perfect shot is not a shot. It's not shooting. It's chunking lead and hoping you hit a major bone structure and the animal slows down so you can get a follow up shot or if lucky enough you caused enough damage the animal dies of it's wounds. It's not a good philosophy. It don't work 50% of the time. So if the aka less than perfect shot don't work 50% of the time then a premium bullet with a less than perfect shot won't work 50% of the time either. There is absolutely nothing wrong with buying a well constructed bullet. If it makes you feel more confident then by all means use it. After guiding elk hunters for 25 years I'll give you an honest take on bullets and how I think they are best used based on what I've seen in the field and bullet recovery.
0-200 yards shots. Most bullets perform well at these ranges. Core lokt, Power Point, Partition, A-Frame and most soft point bullets from multiple company's. If the bullet is going over 3000fps 100yard and under shots are really touchy for the ballistic tip bullets. They seem to expand way to fast which causes massive tissue damage but not the desired penetration. I've seen power points and core lokt bullets come apart with close range and high velocity. But not on the rib cage but in cases like shoulder shots and sad but true shot in any other heavy bone. Speer and Sierra boat tail soft points seem to hold their own. It doesn't get much better than the Nolser partition and Swift A-Frame at these yardages, they open up and drive deep. Most times you don't recover bullets at these ranges unless your shooting through a massive part of the animal. Accubonds and alot of the other ballistic tip bullets are mediocre depending on the velocity of the bullets.
200-400 yards- This is the range where you can say most to all bullets perform well on expansion opening up a tad slower while retaining more bullet weight to drive deep on penetration. As mentioned before core lokt, power point, partitions, A-frame all work good. But I didn't say a lot about the Accubond style bullet in the 0-200 yard distance. That's because I really don't care for it under 200 yards unless you stick to ribcage shots. But this is the distance where Ballistic tip bullets start to shine. They don't open up as fast at this range and seem to deliver the perfect expansion rate. They have great ballistics for longer ranges. There's a lot of soft point bullets that will perform well in this category, at these velocities it's getting really hard to have bullets come apart. Once again partition type bullets rate pretty well.
400-600 yards- In this range most bullets work well here also but here's where the bullets like Ballistic Tip and Soft Point Boat Tails have the advantage. More retained velocity which in a lot of cases perform like most standard bullets in the mid range yardage. Nice penetration and expansion. For those that mostly stick to long range shots Boat tail bullets are the best for long range shooting. Most soft point bullets will not have a problem at this range but there's quite a difference between flat base bullets and boat tails 500yds and beyond.
As an overall take on hunting bullets you don't want a match style bullet for taking game in the field just in case you get A LESS THAN PERFECT SHOT. Up to 400 yards use what ever you want in bullets but stick it in the boiler room. For the the regular joe hunter I'd say a Partition is about as good as you can expect in most cases. Shot placement out performs power and bullet construction every time. There's a few new bullets I'm waiting on to see how they perform on game but for the most part you can't re invent the wheel and lead kills things a lot better than copper and a lot faster.
I didn't mentions the Barnes TSX. I'm sorry for those I'm about to offend but every elk I've seen shot with a TSX I've had to track for distances of 1/2 mile. I have come up on these elk still alive and I'm not even going to put that bullet in the respectable list. While I've seen the video Barnes put out and heard so many success stories I'm standing here saying this bullet does not always open up even at close range. I've recovered bullets with bent tips and no expansion or only expanded just a little at the tip not creating much of a impact. What amazes me the most is it starts to veer off into the animal in different directions instead of staying on a straight path. Sorry Barnes after 10 elk that we actually found your bullet SUCKS.
0-200 yards shots. Most bullets perform well at these ranges. Core lokt, Power Point, Partition, A-Frame and most soft point bullets from multiple company's. If the bullet is going over 3000fps 100yard and under shots are really touchy for the ballistic tip bullets. They seem to expand way to fast which causes massive tissue damage but not the desired penetration. I've seen power points and core lokt bullets come apart with close range and high velocity. But not on the rib cage but in cases like shoulder shots and sad but true shot in any other heavy bone. Speer and Sierra boat tail soft points seem to hold their own. It doesn't get much better than the Nolser partition and Swift A-Frame at these yardages, they open up and drive deep. Most times you don't recover bullets at these ranges unless your shooting through a massive part of the animal. Accubonds and alot of the other ballistic tip bullets are mediocre depending on the velocity of the bullets.
200-400 yards- This is the range where you can say most to all bullets perform well on expansion opening up a tad slower while retaining more bullet weight to drive deep on penetration. As mentioned before core lokt, power point, partitions, A-frame all work good. But I didn't say a lot about the Accubond style bullet in the 0-200 yard distance. That's because I really don't care for it under 200 yards unless you stick to ribcage shots. But this is the distance where Ballistic tip bullets start to shine. They don't open up as fast at this range and seem to deliver the perfect expansion rate. They have great ballistics for longer ranges. There's a lot of soft point bullets that will perform well in this category, at these velocities it's getting really hard to have bullets come apart. Once again partition type bullets rate pretty well.
400-600 yards- In this range most bullets work well here also but here's where the bullets like Ballistic Tip and Soft Point Boat Tails have the advantage. More retained velocity which in a lot of cases perform like most standard bullets in the mid range yardage. Nice penetration and expansion. For those that mostly stick to long range shots Boat tail bullets are the best for long range shooting. Most soft point bullets will not have a problem at this range but there's quite a difference between flat base bullets and boat tails 500yds and beyond.
As an overall take on hunting bullets you don't want a match style bullet for taking game in the field just in case you get A LESS THAN PERFECT SHOT. Up to 400 yards use what ever you want in bullets but stick it in the boiler room. For the the regular joe hunter I'd say a Partition is about as good as you can expect in most cases. Shot placement out performs power and bullet construction every time. There's a few new bullets I'm waiting on to see how they perform on game but for the most part you can't re invent the wheel and lead kills things a lot better than copper and a lot faster.
I didn't mentions the Barnes TSX. I'm sorry for those I'm about to offend but every elk I've seen shot with a TSX I've had to track for distances of 1/2 mile. I have come up on these elk still alive and I'm not even going to put that bullet in the respectable list. While I've seen the video Barnes put out and heard so many success stories I'm standing here saying this bullet does not always open up even at close range. I've recovered bullets with bent tips and no expansion or only expanded just a little at the tip not creating much of a impact. What amazes me the most is it starts to veer off into the animal in different directions instead of staying on a straight path. Sorry Barnes after 10 elk that we actually found your bullet SUCKS.
01-18-2012, 04:57 AM
#17
Fork Horn
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 194
Good info Blackelk. I will debate the less than perfect shot theory though. Less than perfect shots are shot oppurtunty's. If using the good bullets and knowing your gun, many less than perfect shots are very deadly when putting the shot on its mark. You said, you've guided 25 years, biggest complaint guides and outfitters have is the hunter is either out of shape or cant shot. The problem lays behind the gun, not the gun itself. Naturally, got to have common sence.... Each gun has limitations on shots depending on shot angle with the distance of the animal for that perticular shot, and another limitation is the hunter him or herself. Each person should know what there limitations are before pulling the trigger.
01-18-2012, 06:59 AM
#18
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 9,557
Spot on Blackelk. I agree with everything you've said, and i've posted it on several forums.
As a still hunter for 60 years i've never taken a longer shot than 150 yds on mule deer and elk, and i've never lost one. I credit this to be patient for good shots, and the Partition bullet.
Nosler got the Partition right in the 40's, and it's still going strong.
As a still hunter for 60 years i've never taken a longer shot than 150 yds on mule deer and elk, and i've never lost one. I credit this to be patient for good shots, and the Partition bullet.
Nosler got the Partition right in the 40's, and it's still going strong.
01-18-2012, 10:15 AM
#19
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 105
I guess I don't understand what a less than perfect shot is!!! I killed a elk or two mostly with the old winchester silvertip, only have 5 left!!
we hunt the wide open sagebrush of Central Washington, where U need to be prepared to shoot when U see the animals cause normally they a long way off and gettin ready to move if they ain't already moving, they're going straight away, quartering away, broadside, comin straight at ya or quartering to wards ya I have never had one of those cheap O skimpy bullets fail me yet! whether it be a Remington, winchester or what ever else I bought offn the shelf!!! The only bullet I did have a catastrophic failure with was a nosler partition on a mule deer at about 100yds, was pickin chunks of metal out of that deer from the neck to the butt!!!! Boys ya been sold a bill of goods ....ya don't need fancy bullets fer deer and elk.....they don't kill'm any deader than a cheap bullet as U seem they think they are!! them cheap ones have killed more animals that the costy ones!!!! just sayin!!!!!!
we hunt the wide open sagebrush of Central Washington, where U need to be prepared to shoot when U see the animals cause normally they a long way off and gettin ready to move if they ain't already moving, they're going straight away, quartering away, broadside, comin straight at ya or quartering to wards ya I have never had one of those cheap O skimpy bullets fail me yet! whether it be a Remington, winchester or what ever else I bought offn the shelf!!! The only bullet I did have a catastrophic failure with was a nosler partition on a mule deer at about 100yds, was pickin chunks of metal out of that deer from the neck to the butt!!!! Boys ya been sold a bill of goods ....ya don't need fancy bullets fer deer and elk.....they don't kill'm any deader than a cheap bullet as U seem they think they are!! them cheap ones have killed more animals that the costy ones!!!! just sayin!!!!!!
And nobody else said it so why not get a new rifle? Be one of the cheapest item's on the trip. A new scope would also be in order. Don't scrimp, buy the best you can, morgage the house if you need to sell your children into slavery.
Or you can use your 308 put any good bullet you want in it that shoot's well and learn to get closer if you really need to. I suspect your not a handloader, so I'd say, whatever Remington , Winchester of Federal have around 165grs. I hae used a 308 for a whole lot of years with great success, my son has that gun now. But I just came into a Rem mod 788 and it loves 165gr Hornadys. You need a bullet strong enough to get inside, mushroom and destroy vital organs. You do not need a bullet that will get inside, destroy vitals, exit and then kill three more elk with the same shot.
If you like premium bullet's, go for it, they work. If you think you might like to try them, go for it, you got time to see just how well they will work in your rifle. Your whole trip is not going to hang on weather or not you use premium bullet's but on weather or not you use good bullet's and take good shots.
01-18-2012, 03:47 PM
#20
Fork Horn
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 194
What is a perfect shot oppurtunity? Acouple hundred yards broadside, animal standing still, shooting from the prone position with calm breathing? Ideally thats what everyone should wait for but alot of times you dont have the luxury of getting that shot. Like I said earilier the hunter has to have common sence and know there limitations as a shooter and the gun. If we always waited for the perfect shot, the gun writers couldnt write about practicing with your weapon anylonger. As all shots would be chip shots. I would expect a vast amount of people who have hunted atleast a fair bit (not all people) have taken a less than perfect shot at some point. ie, quarting, head on, walking, running, long range, a shooting position other than prone, etc etc.
Last edited by beech18; 01-18-2012 at 04:04 PM.
