jerry d

I respectfully disagree with ya MinnFinn.I think you have to take the sitituation in your own hands and shoot & shut-up!! If your gonna leave it to the college educated idiot with the bio degree to bring his/hers mainly miscalculated information to the authorities to make these disicions there isn't gonna be much of an elk population left!!!!!
Two examples that I can think of the or bio degree Einsteins came up with that blew up in their face was the mt.lion sitituation in Northern California and the black bear sitituation in NJ.The California thing caused one woman her life when she was attacked jogging!!!! The bears became such a problem in NJ they finally had to re-open the season this year after the residents begged the politicians to do something.But in both cases the bio "experts" were against the hunting.

Is it wrong to break the law.......YES!!!!! Is it wrong to violate the 2nd amendment is it wrong to force people to buy health insurance???? You bet your a$$ it is.So if the people that are making the laws break the laws I surely would have a problem killing a couple of wolves!!!!

The wolves have on predator ...man now that we are taken out of equation the ego system is out of balance.
Shoot & shut-up!!!!!!!!!!!

moremules

Thats exactly what I am saying, the same as they did in Oregon, they have been releasing wolves in Wa for many years. In 09 they got caught in broad daylight. In Oregon they were also caught at it. This isn't any secret where people are dealing with these wolves. Wolves just don't appear in an area and start killing, they eat their way to where ever they end up.

When the wolves were changed from a predator to a big game animal the tools were taken away to control the population. Anyone who thinks that hunting seasons for these wolves will control their number don't know these wolves to well. These wolves need very sever management which would mean hunting and trapping and special hunts in areas where they are threatening game herds, and even at that it will be difficult. SS

finnbear

So what yer sayin is none of those wolves could have walked across the border from neighboring BC....are you saying that the BC wolves recognize the international boundary and don't cross??? yer saying that the wolves are that smart???
Like I said before Mr mules yer funny!!!! sorry but I just don't buy yer gummnet conspiracy theory in that particular county!!!! Just as I DO NOT believe that there are wolves in the Clockum....I can assure U that in this small community, some pencil necked pecker wood poacher would have shot one by now!!! and bragged to the whole town about it!!!!!

tangozulu

Well I'm gettin my mojo back and laughin again...........thanks moremules. You are makin my day.......LOL.

Oletrapper

I know two people (ranchers) just outside of the park. They shoot um and let um lay. You can only push a person so far.

MinnFinn

JerryD, I fully understand your frustration on how the federal gov't, especially some fed judges, have abused their powers refusing to turn the power back to the state game (our DNR) depts to manage the gray wolf pop..
However, for anyone who chooses to go the route you speak of, you better know what you're risking. The FWS clearly states "Killing an animal protected under the federal Endangered Species Act is punishable by a fine of up to $100,000, one year in jail or both." You can also kiss good-bye any equipment used in killing any wolf. If you lease grazing rights from the BLM or other fed agencies, they can cancel such leases.
Some states also have additional severe penalties they can charge you with.
You think no one sees or can tie such an act back to you. But I wouldn't bet on it. If you're caught, it will permanently follow you the rest of your life with criminal record and cause untold costs and headaches.
I personally wouldn't risk putting myself or family through that. Also, I think that keeping our country a land ruled by law (though I know some "leaders", people in positions of authority don't follow the law,) is still my and each citizen's duty. If there are bad leaders, we still have the right to lawfully petition, protest to and change leaders at the ballot box. We witnessed that most recently in last Nov.

jerry d

MinnFinn you're NOT wrong but sometimes you need to step in and protect your livelyhood.I'm sure this issue is impacting ranchers and outfitter negatively.
Look @ one of my earlier post {#17}the outcome was the judge was sympathetic to the cause.

fritz1

If they dont do something with ther wolf problem, we will be reading alot more stories like this. [url]http://www.adn.com/2010/03/11/1179368/t ... olves.html[url]
Wolves have depleted the elk heards arround here and have moved close to towns, killing peoples pets, it is only a matter of time before we will see attacks on humans. I can go about three hundred yards from my house and show you wolf tracks, I live in the town Pierce Id.

moremules

Did I say that wolves don't come across the border FB? I said wolves were released in both OR and WA, in 09 WDFW were caught redhanded releasing wolves, and that wasn't the only time. Same with OR. As far as the wolves in the Colockum, or anywhere else, not to many people go around bragging about the wolves they have shot.

moremules

In the last 10 years there have been several wolf attacks on people that would have been fatal had not these people been armed. And as Fritz1 stated above it will only get worse as the pray base is depleted. Most of these wolves have not been hunted in 15 years, they have been caught collared and hauled in trucks and helicopters. This non fear of humans has been passed down through the years so they are already habitual to humans. Look at the Arizona wolves, a pen raised wolf that had so much dog in them that some of the pups that were born in the wild after release came out with tails that curled up like Malemute. These cross bred mutts were dumped in the middle of cattle country and from day one people had problems with these wolves killing dogs off their porch, they had to build cages for their children to wait in for the school bus.

When Do Wolves Become Dangerous To Humans?
January 28, 2008


Many of you have probably read several times or perhaps even heard me on my radio show talk about George Dovel and his ongoing efforts to reach people and educate them with facts about wildlife, etc. through his print publication, “The Outdoorsman”. (If you would like to subscribe to Mr. Dovel’s publication, you can write to this address: The Outdoorsman, P.O. Box 155, Horseshoe Bend, Idaho, 83629)

In the latest issue of the Outdoorsman, Dovel presents to his readers some background history on how our media, often times influenced by fish and game personnel and wildlife biologists, react to and present written information about human and wolf encounters. As part of Dovel’s presentation, he includes a great deal of information that he received from one of our very renowned wolf experts.

Dr. Valerius Geist, a Professor Emeritus of Environmental Science at the University of Calgary, has years of studies in wildlife, including wolves and personal encounters with them. He is recognized by many as one of the leading authorities on wolves and wolf habits.

If you will recall back in November, I reported that a coroner’s inquest had made a determination that Kenton Carnegie, a 22-year old college student had been attacked and killed by wolves in a remote area of Northern Saskatchewan, Canada. Dr. Geist and retired Alaska wolf expert Mark McNay, were asked to represent the family of Kenton Carnegie during the inquest.

Dr. Geist points out that there is an obvious reason why wolf attacks on humans go unreported or are declared to be inconclusive as to the cause of death. Those attacks that result in death occur almost entirely when a person is alone, no one to assist in fighting off the wolves and nobody to witness what happens.

Even in Carnegie’s situation, investigators readily agreed that there were wolf tracks all around what was left of the body. I even think I recall reading that witnesses who found Carnegie, reported seeing wolves or a wolf at or near the body. The disagreements come from whether or not Carnegie was dead before the wolves appeared on the scene.

This is the biggest reason why it goes on being reported that wolf kills on humans “never” happen in North America yet most people know this is simply not true.

Dr. Geist sent to George Dovel of the Outdoorsman, part of the 61-page recording of testimony at the inquest of Kenton Carnegie in hopes that people will read expert testimony and heed the information that comes from the best in the business rather than from the media which is nothing more than an echo chamber of environmentalists who would dare never to badmouth a wolf.

Below comes from The Outdoorsman article and is part of the information provided by Dr. Valerius Geist. It is the seven stages that lead to a wolf attack on people. There is more information that goes with these seven steps. I highly recommend contacting The Outdoorsman so you can get your copy sent to you.

These Are The Seven Stages Leading To An Attack On People By Wolves

1) Within the pack’s territory prey is becoming scarce not only due to increased predation on native prey animals, but also by the prey evacuating home ranges en mass, leading to a virtual absence of prey. Or wolves increasingly visit garbage dumps at night. We observed the former on Vancouver Island in summer and fall 1999.

Deer left the meadow systems occupied by wolves and entered boldly into suburbs and farms, causing – for the first time – much damage to gardens. At night they slept close to barns and houses, which they had not done in the previous four years.

The wintering grounds of trumpeter swans, Canada geese and flocks of several species of ducks were vacated. The virtual absence of wildlife in the landscape was striking.

2) Wolves in search of food began to approach human habitations – at night! Their presence was announced by frequent and loud barking of farm dogs. A pack of sheep-guarding dogs raced out each evening to confront the wolf pack, resulting in extended barking duels at night, and the wolves were heard howling even during the day.

3) The wolves appear in daylight and observe people doing their daily chores at some distance. Wolves excel at learning by close, steady observation [1]. They approach buildings during daylight.

4) Small bodied livestock and pets are attacked close to buildings even during the day. The wolves act distinctly bolder in the actions.

They preferentially pick on dogs and follow them right up to the verandas. People out with dogs find themselves defending their dogs against a wolf or several wolves. Such attacks are still hesitant and people save some dogs.

At this stage wolves do not focus on humans, but attack pets and some livestock with determination. However, they may threaten humans with teeth exposed and growling when the humans are defending dogs, or show up close to a female dog in heat, or close to a kill or carrion defended by wolves. The wolves are still establishing territory.

5) The wolves explore large livestock, leading to docked tails, slit ears and hocks. Livestock may bolt through fences running for the safety of barns. When the first seriously wounded cattle are found they tend to have severe injuries to the udders, groin and sexual organs and need to be put down. The actions of wolves become more brazen and cattle or horses may be killed close to houses and barns where the cattle or horses were trying to find refuge. Wolves may follow riders and surround them. They may mount verandas and look into windows.

6) Wolves turn their attention to people and approach them closely, initially merely examining them closely for several minutes on end. This is a switch from establishing territory to targeting people as prey. The wolves may make hesitant, almost playful attacks biting and tearing clothing, nipping at limbs and torso. They withdraw when confronted. They defend kills by moving toward people and growling and barking at them from 10 – 20 paces away.

7) Wolves attack people. These initial attacks are clumsy, as the wolves have not yet learned how to take down the new prey efficiently. Persons attacked can often escape because of the clumsiness of the attacks.

A mature courageous man may beat off or strangulate an attacking wolf. However, against a wolf pack there is no defense and even two able and armed men may be killed. Wolves as pack hunters are so capable a predator that they may take down black bears, even grizzly bears [2]. Wolves may defend kills.

The attack may not be motivated by predation, but be a matter of more detailed exploration unmotivated by hunger. This explains why wolves on occasion carry away living, resisting children, why they do not invariably feed on the humans they killed, but may abandon such just as they may kill foxes and just leave them, and why injuries to an attacked person may at times be surprisingly light, granted the strength of a wolf’s jaw and its potential shearing power [3].

[1] – It is important to recognize here that wolves learn in a manner different from dogs, and that they excel at learning by closely observing what is going on. They are insight learners, and they solve problems, such as unlatching gates, for instance, almost at once!

Some dogs may solve this, but over a very long time, and usually not at all. Captive wolves or coyotes not only learn to open their cage, but quickly open all the others as well! And they achieve this by sitting and just watching attentively – an activity wild wolves indulge in continually.

From an elevated position they rest or sit and watch, watch, watch. Many times wolves followed me and on some occasions sat beside my cabin at night, orientated towards the cabin, apparently watching what was going on.

Wolves have large heads relative to the body and at comparable skull sizes have about ten percent more brain mass than dogs. See Ray and Lorna Coppinger 2001 Dogs, pp. 42-47, 54-55.

[2] – Personal communication by Dr. Paul Paquet from research on coastal wolves in British Columbia. Wolf scat contained fur and claws of both black bears and grizzly bears.

[3] – I am grateful to Prof. Harry Frank drawing my attention to multiple motivations of wolves attacking people.

Tom Remington

http://mainehuntingtoday.com/bbb/2008/01/28/when-do-wolves-become-dangerous-to-humans/