Kill a Mama?
 

What do you fellers think ' bout killin' cow elk or moose with a calf at its side? Some say calves are ok by the fall, they can make it through the winter alone. But why are the cows still wet then? Seems to me, they need their mamas to make ' em strong with milk, an' to show ' em how to protect ' em from wolves an' such. I shot a cow onct an' along came this calf from the timber whinnin' at the top of his lungs. I had another tag, so I shot him too. Didn' t feel too good ' bout the whole situashun.

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

I know what you mean. I' ve also heard that calves are alright by fall, especially with elk becuase they are a community animal, but I try to take a cow that doesn' t look wet as you put it. I like the meat but I don' t feel right when I think I may have left a little one to starve and go to waste.

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

Beaver,
We shoot lots of cows. If one doesn' t draw a bull, then its easy to get the cow consolation prize. We are meat hunters and cows make for some fine eating. You are right though, there is that inevitable chance that if you shoot enough of them you will kill a wet one. I try to avoid shooting a cow with an obvious calf by its side, but in the " fog of war, er I mean elk hunting" it is not all that controllable. To maximize my odds of shooting a dry cow, if there is a group of elk to choose from, then I seek out the largest, fleshiest, " pot bellied looking" cow in the group, seems like this nets a high percentage of " dry" cows.

We did have one hunter in our group last year that did just like you did and shot the mother and once he realized what the score was he then shot the calf. I thought it was honorable. From time to time things get messy and you just have to deal with it. In our parts we have a little bit of a " consolation situation." Colorado' s elk herds are so over populated that the CDOW is going after the cows hard. I we don' t do something to bring the populations down and we get a winter like we had in 1982 then there will be mass starvation. Even so, it does rain on your parade when you kill a wet one.

Bench shooting may approach perfection,
Hunting can' t, except maybe on these forums

Never Go Undergunned,
EKM

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

No I would not shoot a cow with a calf, weather an elk/moose, or deer in the first season. I live here in the bush and I encounter these critters on a regular basis and even at the begining of spring this year I have seen a few does that still have a couple of yearlings from last year, and a couple years ago we had a cow moose and calf around the kabin here and after the second year the cow ran the calf off to breed, and the damn calf moose came by here for about a week crying for its mama. Don' t you think I was thinkin about some veil. ;)

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

I don' t think I would. Good luck.

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

Now I mostly bowhunt, I' ve taken a couple cows in the past, none with a yearling. If the opportunity would arise to harvest a cow that had a yearling, I' d surely pass it up.

Fish & Game has these cow seasons because of the amount of elk in a given area, so I can appreciate the thinning process needed. On the other hand, when do you have to many elk. elknut1

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

Ordinarily, I' d pass, but I did have one November experience where I had a tag available for either sex and came upon 2 similar sized healthy white tail does. Both were feeding heartily on browse so I elected to shoot the larger of the two for the freezer. In the process of gutting the doe, I found that she was still wet and figured that the accompanying doe must have been that year' s fawn as there were no other deer in the vicinity. I do not believe that I left the younger doe at a disadvantage in this instance.

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

I would not shoot a doe or cow with a fawn. There is a strong bond between them.
Before I had kids I didn' t really give it much thought, but now I would not.

I don' t shoot does or cows anymore. The areas where I hunt could use more animals, shooting does and cows seems like heading in the wrong direction to me for my area.

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

I' m pretty sure I would have a hard time shooting a cow or doe with a calf. If it was a moose and I needed the meat I would probably do it but wouldn' t feel real good after.
We are able to shoot bull of calf moose in some areas here and I have trouble shooting calves. It' s kind of a last resort thing for me.

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

Have done it before, and will do it again. Now if I see one with a very small calf/fawn, I won' t, but a normal baby from last spring should have no problem making it on its own. Does it bother me when the little one stands out there and watches as I gut its mom? Sure.

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

I don' t hunt moose or elk: I hunt goats and pigs here in Hawaii and both breed year round so you can always find mammas with babys. After a while you get to being able to tell if the babys are old enough to survive without the mom.

With feral goats, I do not shoot nannys with young babys. Only if it' s a big nanny with an older baby, around 20 pounds will I consider shooting a mamma. Any smaller than that and the bond between mamma and baby is still really strong. Still it' s not for everyone as it can be sad watching the baby looking for it' s mamma. I usually only take a mamma if im having a bad day and couldn' t get any other goat. I guess I should mention that the place I' m hunting has a huge overpopulation of goats so we have a very good chance of taking 2 goats in a day for meat.

Pig' s are somewhat different. It' s not very often that I get a pig with bow down here (maybe twice a year) and if I get a chance at a sow with piglets, I will take it so long as the piglets are at least ten pounds at which age, they should easily survive. Any smaller and I will let them go. But I will not hesitate to shoot any baby pig over 25 pounds. [>:]

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

I can' t answer this question since I' ve never had the chance to ever draw a cow moose tag up here![:@] But if I' m lucky enough to draw a cow tag for the areas that I applied for this year, then no, I wouldn' t shoot a cow that had a calf with her.

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

I believe if I had to hunt goats an' pigs, I' d hang my rifles up fer good. My condolences.

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

Well lets see the Ontario general moose lic. is for a calf only by default. You draw for bull or cow. Now if my camp had 1 cow tag and the rest of the members had all calf tags,, theyd both be harvested!

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

Nice way to refer to the ethical harvesting of game animals. Yer the kind thet PETA jus' loves to portray as the norm for hunters. No wonder we can' t count on hunting into the next generation.

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

BeaverJack what is your problem. The MNR in Ontario grant all hunters the opertunity for taking a calf when you buy a licience. They also go over all the data when they let hand out all the cow tags and bull tags. In Ontario you are not allowed to just shoot a cow, you have to have a coe tag which is alotted by the MNR.

About shooting a mama, I would with no problem. My reasoning is this. If the calf, fawn was still small enough to still need the MAMA, then the chances are that the BABY will not survive the winter here anyway. If it is a cow moose, the calf will be shot anyway if the hunter is in a hunting group (group hunting is premitted in Ontario, others in your group are able to fill anothers tag).

If you think my comment is sensitive to the hunting family (giving peta fuel for fights) then think of a small baby fighting the winters trying to survive. You know how nature is run, ONLY THE STRONGEST SURVIVE !!!!!!

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

You posed the question, I answerred it HONESTLY! If you were so worried about PETA why did you ask the question?? that was a possible answer! Ive read your posts for about a year now and im really starting to think you are PETA. you do nothing but criticize others morals and integrity or how they hunt. well guess what,,, I couldnt give a damn what you think!

If anyone in my group of 10 sights a cow and a calf together, and we have a cow tag in the group they both go. PERIOD.

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

SwampThing and GrumpyTom I think BeaverJack was referring to the term " butchered" in SwampThing' s post. I think he is eluding to the fact that you should use a different term for taking animals.

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

Yeppers to thet. I unnerstand some folks thinkin' thet a critter can survive even though his mama' s still wet. I ain' t sure I buy it, but I DO take offense at those hunters perpetuatin' the stereotype thet huntin' is unwholesome and somehow indicative of facination with violence. Butcherin' ain' t what you do in combat or while huntin' . If ethics don' t guide you in these realms, then you are everthin' the antis make us all out to be. I' ve seed the handiwork of the slaughterhouse mentality. Ever year people shoot up herds by indiscriminate shootin' , kill multiple bulls to cream the rack they want, an' wound animals by exceedin' the range of their skill level. I got no tolerance fer such disregard for MY and my chilrin' s right to hunt.

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

OK I should have used a different word,, but I was referring to the processing of meat,, not wholesale slaughter. And yes I still say both animals would be harvested.

I apologize if I ruffled some feathers and I know I have. But when other people start questioning my ethics well lets just say I do not put up with it. I have thrown guys out of my camp at 1:30am just for saying lets grab a gun and a spotlight. They didnt do it,, just suggested it!!

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

Strongest measure of a man is how he owns up to his mistakes. If I ever make one, I hope I' m as gracious.

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

I' m a meat hunter,yes I will take a big elk or deer if it happens to cross my path.My for most cuase of my hunt is the outdoors,2nd is to fill my frezzer.In montana you don' t have the option to harvest a second elk calf or yearling next to her,regardless if it is opening day or the last.As for the ethics of some hunters I seen the cream of the crop last year in centeral montana,there was a heard of elk that go caught in the open between two mountain ranges, out of 600 head, 400 and some were killed, there were pepole(not hunters in my book) who would shoot the cows around the bulls to get a bull,or run them down in pick-ups and 4 wheelers. Yes there were fines and jail time involved for some and others who played by the book got their elk.Any more you see hunters put their principals a side to kill a trophy,my farther always said" If you wan' t to see what kind a morals a person has take them hunting" I' ve seen good pepole do un-ethical hunting for the trophy.BBJ

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

Like you said Bareback, these folks ain' t hunters, the' re slobs who go out shootin with no regard for respect for the animal and what ever cost it takes for these weekend warriors to obtain their goal. I think you get maybe a 5% of the A-holes that give the other respectable 95% a bad name. Bobby;)

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

Cow moose tag here is good for any except with a calf at its side. Dunno why. In front or behind is maybe ok. lol. Seriously, Could be ethics or a better chance for surviving the winter. Just thought I' d mention it.

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

I' ve never been in that situation, but I know I would let the two pass. About ten years ago, I put a heart shot on a Buck, and he evidently ran right between a Doe and Fawn. They scattered and the fawn was screaming it' s head off. Fearing my bullet went through the Buck and hit the Fawn, I went to find the Fawn. I found it, but all that had happened was it got scared when Mama took off. Man that tore me up when that little guy was crying like that. But they did get reunited about a minute later. One Doe walked out took one listen to the Fawn and bolted when it realized it wasn' t Her' s, then the real Mama came out and found Her baby.

And yes, I did retreive the Buck also.

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

Las' calf I shot squawled like a baby bein' cooked with a blow torch. Lil' feller laid there an' cried an' it was hard shootin' him agin. Eve at that age, elk hold onto life sumthin' fierce.

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

Most cow/calf pairs are part of a bigger herd led by a mature cow. Another cow in the group will often adopt, and nurse, if necessary, an orphaned calf. If you are not concerned with quantity of meat, but desire quality, you might take the calf if legal. Never done it myself, but a hunting buddy of mine did ' bouta half dozen years ago, and it was like wild veal. Absolutely fantastic eating. He did however take some heat for taking what some of our clan described as a " hooved" Great Dane. (as a receipient of some of that meat, I have no criticism...mmmmm...)

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

First of all, one must realize that the Wildlife Department allows cow hunting with this in mind. Next, it sounds like the proper question should be " Should I shoot a cow, period?" . Most cows have calves on their side in the fall and most of the time hunters may not even see the calf.

I was faced with this dilemna a few years ago when a cow/calf pair came by on a bowhunting trip. Knowing the fact from raising by own cattle I knew that weaning was fast approaching and that by the size of the young, he/she would get along just fine. I elected to take the cow as a clean shot was offered.

This is merely a personal decision based upon one' s comfort zone. Morally I feel I could not bash someone for taking a cow with a young calf during season as State game managers are aware of the situation and do not address it. Most calves born in early spring will probably be fine on their own and fit into the herd for future years.

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

Just thought I' d share some readin I did this weekend. The name of the book slips my memory and when I find it I' ll edit this message but it touched on this subject.

First it basically said that if a calf isn' t old enough to survive without its mother by the time fall rolls around it probably isn' t big enough to survive the winter anyway. Those calves that are borderline will probably be accepted by another cow because they are such a community animal but have a slim chance of surviving if they don' t have a last minute growth spurt. I think a couple others already touched on both points but just thought I' d share it.

RE: Kill a Mama?
 

Shootin' calfs is irresponsible in the wolf reinterduction area. Yellerstone herds used to average about 26-33 calfs per 100 cows. Now they' re down to 9 per 100. If you don' t care ' bout the future of huntin' , go ahead an' slaughter calfs. Otherwise, stick to dry cows an' bulls.