Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

I have used 338Win and 375H&H Mags on elk and have been questioned on ocassion for using such " magnum power" , so.....

After weighing several factors and carefully studying the reloading manuals and the ammo boxes to make sure they make no mention of the word " magnum" ..... I just bought a 416 Rigby. So even though it is a pre-WWI cartridge and not a magnum, do you think it will be sufficient to handle a bull elk or perhaps a brown bear in a pinch? ;)

EKM

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

Its all in the name.

Look at a .250 savage then look at a .25/06. One might assume that one is a " standard" (non-magnum) 25 cal. and the other is a " magnum" 25 cal. But the 25/06 does not have that magnum word attached to it.

Look at a .222 rem. then look at a 220 swift. The swift must be a " magnum" right? Well noone attached the magnum word to it so it isn' t but it is.

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

EKM, with proper shot placement that 416 should do the trick....

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

Boy, I don' t know. I' ve heard those .416 bullets will just bounce off a shoulder. What you need is a .50 bmg, that is the only sufficent caliber to take a majestic elk or a brown bear.

I would love to meet you at the range some day and give your .416 a try. I' ve never shot anything bigger than a .300 win mag

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

Just out of curiosity, what loads are you planning on using? I know a few guys that shoot 416 Rem and it took me awhile, but I finally found one. Anyway, they use the 300 gr X bullet on elk every year and as you might expect, bowl them over...

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

Jorgy,
50 bmg would be fun as a novelty, but at 33 pounds I' m afraid that I wouldn' t make it far from truck before collapsing so probably won' t work there. So, regarding range opportunities are you from anywhere around Denver?

Colorado Elk,
416 Rigby built its reputation with 410 grain bullets, but I will probably drop well below that for elk this fall, especially if I can get Barnes X' s to work well. The lighter (say 325gr) all copper XFB bullet is longer and shaped better than than jacketed lead bullets of the same weight/caliber (thus a higher ballistic coefficient i.e. .467, about the same as a larger 7mm jacketed lead bullet).

I kind of like the Barnes idea of lighter, faster, flatter and STILL having devastating payload and bullet action on the business end. It could score high on all of the Big Four: Energy (5900 ft-lbs), Taylor KO Index (56), Hydrostatic Shock (2,899 fps), and Bullet Performance (Barnes penetration [usually clean through]; expansion [4 " petal" design]; retention [usually 95+%]).

Per My Point Blank Ballistics Program and Barnes #3 Data:

With a 200 yard sight in:
1.6" high at 100 yards with 5200+ ft-lbs remaining
0 high at 200 yards with 4500+ ft-lbs remaining
7" low at 300 yards with 3900+ ft-lbs remaining
21" low at 400 yards with 3400+ ft-lbs remaining

Recoil:
69 pounds
22 fps velocity
Should be refreshing! :) [X(]

We' ll see, I' ve got my homework cut out on this one, good thing its only June.

Now for flexibility and cost savings, all I have to do is to learn how to reload, I' ve got all the stuff, just got to get started -- should be fun!

Never Go Undergunned,
EKM

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

I started loading for the same reason, although the 416 REM is only about $80/box. The 300 gr X bullets have signficantly reduced recoil compared to the 400 gr. The information in the Barnes #3 manual had all the information to get me started, although I ruined a few cases in the process. I can' t wait to use it this fall. Let me know how you like your Rigby (and what loads you decide on)! Happy Hunting.

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

Yeah, I live in Thornton, just north east of Denver. $80 a box for ammo, holy crap!

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

I think those Rigby cartridges are about $120/box!!! (per Midway). I think my reloading costs are about $.80 (after cases) per cartridge. It is amazing how few cases you can load per can of powder.

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

Jorgy,
I haven' t shot a 300 Win Mag. so that makes us even! I would not be opposed to getting together for some shared shooting experiences as long as everyone is 21 (sorry, liability). We could meet at Cherry Creek Shooting Center or elsewhere if you have a membership. :)

Perhaps you would be interested in a progressive Magnum Slugfest and we could each work our way up through: 300 Win Mag, 338 Win mag, 375 H&H Mag, and 416 Rigby. If ColoradoElk wanted to join us we could include a 416 RemMag in the line up. :D

My 416 Rigby doesn' t have a scope on it yet though I have a Leupold Vari III 3.5-10 waiting for it. Of course, for " introduction" purposes NOT having a scope could be an advantage! ;)

Never Go Undergunned,
EKM

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

" ...... I just bought a 416 Rigby. Do you think it will be sufficient to handle a bull elk or perhaps a brown bear in a pinch?;)"

You have to ask??!!;):D:D

Make the Big Dog bark!!!

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

Hey ELKampMaster, that sounds fun. I don' t have a membership anywhere, but I' ve been shooting at just about every range around. Cherry creek would be OK with me. And yes, I' m over 21, for quite awhile now:)

So when you take those big boys out, do you use one of those shoulder pads, or do you just go for the biggest bruised shoulder you can get?

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

Jorgy,
I like the big guns and I' m game to get thumped, pushed, and jerked around but I DO NOT get into bruising and pain at all. If you are going to shoot a magnum well it is my belief that you cannot have the expectation (even in the slightest) in the back of your mind that you are going to be hurt or disfigured.

I use all the " cheaters" necessary to be comfortable when practicing. One of these days I' ll get a rifle that I' ll have to put a muzzle break on, maybe this one will be it. Don' t worry about your shoulder -- that is one more reason for working your way up. If the 375HH is about all the party you want, then taking on the 416 that day probably wouldn' t be a good idea.

Regarding " cheaters" I know you " can' t" use them hunting, of course, but then you have winter coats on plus you have the advantage of focus and adrenalin. I personally hear no report and feel no recoil when I take a live animal shot, I' m aware something has happened alright but no blast or kick in the normal sense.

Never Go Undergunned,
EKM

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

How are those guns on the shoulder??? Just curious as to how much they kick. I know I get a sore shoulder and cheek from shooting my 3.5" mag shotgun and can only imagine what a .416 would be like. No doubt a definite elk stopper.

Maybe a stupid question but who is the manufacturer of those??

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

IronRanger,

Per The Recoil Calculator:
325gr bullet, 106 gr powder =
69 pounds recoil
22 fps recoil velocity
Should be refreshing!

416 Rigby' s are most commonly made by Ruger or CZ.
416 RemMags are more common and made by Remington, Winchester, Weatherby, and others.

Mine is a CZ using a 550 Safari Magnum action which is a Mauser variant with controlled round feed and a 25" barrel.

Never Go Undergunned,
EKM

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

Dang, I was hoping you were going to ask us which non-magnum cartridge to get for elk and what-not:(, I was going to get to promote the .45-70 some more...THEN, I read you got a .416Rigby, another of my FAVORITE rounds, and I was exstatic!:D[8D]. Speer listed the rigby (on the one rare occasion that I' ve found that they' ve listed loads for it) and the Rem. as ' grossly overpowered for any north american game, except for the largest of bears' , but what the heck, Federal advertises ' hunt deer loaded for bear' , so why not ' hunt elk loaded for cape buffalo' .

I' ve used my .416Rigby' s on deer and buffalo (domestic: ill animals) on numerous occasions, hard bullets in it are great for deer, knocks them down like a truck hit them and there is minimal meat damage, they fly a foot or two through the air, and never move again. On ill buffalo, it' s great because I can drop them in a big hurry from a safe distance (a maltempered buffalo will kill pretty much anything that bugs it, I totalled a truck once when my uncle sent me in to drag out a ' dead' buffalo, he wasn' t quite dead yet, but I almost was, thank God I had my .44mag levergun with me!). I' m kind of thinking of buying a new Ruger in .416Rigby, since I don' t have one in Ruger yet, but the .458Lott is pretty tempting too.

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

No Mercy,
Ah, Big Bore Comrades -- there are more here than I might have thought! :D

The Ruger Safari Model 77 Mark II' s have a fine reputation and you' re right the 458 Lott is a temptation. :)

If this 416 Rigby doesn' t send me running home to mama, then I may have to entertain the 458 Lott later on. I' m reshuffling my rack right now -- getting rid of what I consider to be the so-so stuff and applying the $$$ to something I consider more worthy -- 7mmRemMag is my likely " next acquisition" I just have to figure what to " kiss goodbye."

Best Regards,
EKM

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

EKM and Jorgy, if you ever get together for a " Magnum Fest" please let me know. I shoot up in Estes Park but Cherry Creek is close enough! If one of you brings a Lott we could have some real fun! I found a new sako 416 rem at a price too good to be true, and it makes my 300 and 45-70 (with Garrett' s) well, disappointing. Frankly, even loaded down, you can obtain similar ballistics to the 300, with a 100% increase in weight and energy. The various 416s seem to do everything well (But I would LOVE to shoot a Rigby!). Additionally, the recoil is not too bad. The first time she caught me by surprise and I wish I was wearing a mouthguard, but we are getting along much better now...

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

Well, how about it?

Does anyone in the Denver Metro area shoot a 458 Lott :D or (cringe) a 460 Weatherby? [X(][X(] Ideally, we need someone with a 45 cal " bad boy" to join our little group for a progressive " Magnum Slugfest" 2003 at the Cherry Creek Shooting Center.

Meanwhile, 458 or no, some email is in order to come up with a date:
you can reach me by clicking on the envelope next to my profile. Please be sure to make the Subject Line: something with " Magnum Slugfest" in it so I don' t erase it, as I do not open the majority of the crappola that lands in my email and I erase it en masse.

Never Go Undergunned,
EKM

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(

Sure wish I lived in Colorado!!! Gonna miss out on a whole lot of fun!!!

:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

This sounds like fun. I' m going to go out in the garage and start hitting my shoulder with my 24 ounce framing hammer to get it used to it :)

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

Duplicate - web site was acting up!
EKM

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

Duplicate -- Web site was acting up right as I was trying to save!
EKM

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

Jorgy,

Make sure you put a 1x4 over your shoulder first! This should NOT involve any framing hammer beatings at all -- you may feel like you' ve been driving a stiff sprung jeep down a rough 4 wheel drive offroad trail for half a day, but if you end up cut, bruised or hurt, then either we didn' t do our job or you didn' t listen.

Seriously, I am not into getting people hurt just because they are curious or interested and want to give a magnum or a Rigby a go. A shoulder pad is a good idea (to simulate winter clothing -- they rent them for a buck). Fitting the rifle to you by adding something extra between the shoulder and the butt of the rifle to effectively lengthen the stock will keep your eye, nose, upper lip, and face away from your thumb and/or the scope. Wearing both ear plugs and muffs while making " on the range" communication a little difficult lets you focus on " just shooting the gun" -- you' ll be in your own " little world" .

We won' t have enough time or ammo to let everyone bench rest groups plus the bench rest is NO place for introductions to a foreign rifle bigger than what you are used to shooting. So the " introduction process" will most likely involve standing and shooting off hand. In the process of working your way up in caliber, " orientation" comes before bench " sharpshooting" -- comfort level first, groups second. I know I' m on a soapbox here; however, so many people get " hurt" by magnums because they didn' t realize that their basic fundamentals were sloppy (even though they could " get away with it" on the small bores) and/or they had no " gauge" or expectation of just how challenging the " push" was going to be and then when they move up to " NFL" level of play they have problems and surprises -- we want to avoid all that.

I' ll talk with the folks at the range about the details and get back to you all. Since we are bringing some significant artillary and perhaps a small crowd and we' ll probably use one of the 25 yard pistol bays so we can stand upright instead of " bench sit" , the range master/owner may have some say in how we set things up! He is a PH who hunts Tanzania 90 days per year and if he' ll take the time to work with us a bit, then I doubt if there is any of us who couldn' t learn a thing or two!

We are still looking for someone with a 458 Lott (preferably), a 460 Weatherby (cringe), or a 470 Nitro or Capstick (yikes). [Wow! Only one (the 460) of those last four is a designated " magnum" ] ;)

Never Go Undergunned,
EKM

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

I think a shoulder pad for a buck sounds like a pretty good deal :) I know a day behind the bench with my 300 will give me a good sore shoulder. And I really like the advise about double ear protection, I probably wouldn' t have thought to bring plugs too. When I first bought my 7mm mag I got into a flinching problem until an old timer at the range had me where his ear muffs instead of just my plugs and it did the trick.

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

Wish I lived in Colorado to (or any of the Rocky Mtn States).:( :(:(I would like to get aquainted with the 416 Rigby or 416 Rem Mags[>:]. Don' t think I would touch the .460 Weatherby. [:o]

I will start purchasing big bore rifles shortly:). Plan on starting with a .338 win mag I know this is a med bore. Or have Melvin Forbes at Ultra Light build a .358 Norma mag this should quallify as entry level big bore, right?

Hey ELKampMaster, did you get the email I sent you about Holland and Holland new .400?

Try the electronic muffs to help with muzzle blast

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

neweboarhunter,

Sorry didn' t get the email OR got it and didn' t recognize it for what it was and mass nuked it along with all the other " stuff." Sorry. Resend and I will try to catch it.

Definition of big bore depends on the part of the world you are in AND the group you are talking to:

*** [Extreme] Craig Boddington' s " Safari Rifles" lists the 375 as a mid bore, 450' s and up as big bores, and the 416' s as a convenient and " un-named" in between group.

*** [Regular] Other websites use the .40 caliber AND 4000 ft lbs at the muzzle rule.

*** [Easy] For our group here anything over a 30-06 probably qualifies since we have a pretty provincial NA (deer hunting) standard. We bounced it around in another thread figuring 8mmMag and up we could call " big bore" and keep folks happy. Fine by me.

As far a which caliber to get next, just think in terms of caliber/cartridge spacing, no sense in bunching them up.

Never Go Undergunned,
EKM

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

Hello BBE! (Big Bore Enthusiasts)

EKM, I know the site was nuked, so if you didn' t get my mail, please let me know. Jorgy and others, the PAST pads et al work wonders. I have several, and if we happen to meet at the range, don' t worry about recoil. You might be surprised how gentle the love touch is. I went to the range yesterday and shot horrible groups because the only thing on my mind was EKM' s Rigby!

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

Jorgy and ColoradoElk,

You have mail.

EKM

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

I am betting the 400 grain Partition in that .416 would be a shooter and wacker of anything that walks.

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

I' m glad to hear that Cherry Creek range is still open. I heard that they might shut down over the road issue.

Can' t wait for the Mag Fest 2003!

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

EKM, I re-sent the email. anyway check this site out www.african-hunter.com

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

Hello BBE!:

I couldn’t resist sharing what Boddington had to say about the big bores for elk in Bob Robb’s book on elk hunting:

“I often hear that African Game is much tougher than North American game. Whoever started that rumor didn’t know much about elk. They’re tough like Cape Buffalo are tough, and if they had the same temperament, we wouldn’t be discussing what kind of rifle is adequate – only the largest would be considered.”

“Elk are big, strong and tough. I once saw (not heard about, saw) a bugling bull, full of adrenaline, take eight good hits from an 8mm Remington Magnum before he went down for good. Does that mean you need more gun? Of course not; the “Big Eight” is a fine elk cartridge. That was one of those anomalies, and I doubt the results would have been any different if the bull had been shot with a .375 H&H or a .30-06 – but it is an incident I’ll never forget, and I keep it in mind whenever I select elk rifles and loads.”

“What is the upper limit of elk calibers? I’m not sure there is one, provided the shooter doesn’t mind the recoil and the ranging capabilities are in keeping with the country. I’ve felt perfectly at home in elk country with a .375 H&H Magnum, and I know people who use .416s without apologizing for them. Obviously rifles capable of dropping an elephant are hardly necessary – but you certainly can’t say they won’t do the job."

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

ColoradoElk,

There is a tendency to get somewhat " lax" in ones choice of calibers/cartridges/rifles when the game one hunts has no alternative but to flee in one' s advance. It would definitely clear the woods of a lot of cartridges/calibers if a bull elk after being fired at and upon his determining your location, then charged with what life he had left -- his only goal to settle the score before he died. [:o][X(]

That strikes me as why hunting moose in grizzly or brownie country would be a shade " spiritual" -- it puts the hunter on notice that maybe he " king" of the food chain and then again maybe he isn' t.

I think most folks " stated" goal in either case remains the same -- to kill quickly and cleanly WITH HIGH PROBABILITY; however, thee difference really shows up in how one' s failure to properly perform (either in terms of accuracy or power) plays out. Either (1) It is just another hunter' s " dirty little secret" in the case of game which must flee, hide, die and rot in the woods somewhere when fired upon poorly (again either in terms of accuracy or power) OR (2) the result is a dead, injured or very scared hunter in the case of game that can and/or chooses to hunt back.

" You wouldn' t think deer hunting was such fun if those poor deer could shoot back." -- Mom

Never Go Undergunned
EKM

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

Magnum Fest 2003 is set!

Cherry Creek Shooting Center
Englewood, Colorado
800AM
Saturday July 12, 2003

Anyone else who is interested contact me via email (envelope next to my profile).
[Please put " Magnum Fest 2003" in the subject line.]

Never Go Undergunned
EKM

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

I love my big magnums! Have in the gun safe right now a .416 Rem. Mag. Winchester M 70 Safari Express. Took it to Africa this past March and used it for Cape buffalo.

Having said the above, I don' t think I will use it for elk. So far, I have taken two bulls with my .300 Weatherby. I use handloads with the 180 grain Barnes XBT for elk and moose. The reason I prefer the .300 is that you have a much greater effective range with it than you do with the heavier .416. There is no question in my mind that one could kill the biggest bull elk in the entire world with the .416. You still have to hit it where it counts.

I wish I lived closer to you guys. I have a buddy that owns a .460 WBY. We could have a blast shooting. No pun intended.

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

patrkyhntr,

A 460 Weatherby would be mighty interesting. I might be more leery of it that the 500 NE that will be there! I' ve heard a 460 is a " reasonable" round if you load it down to 2400 fps or so. Roy Weatherby decided not to be out done as far as factory ammo with a shoulder and a neck goes and I think so far it stands.

Never Go Undergunned,
EKM

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

Your under gunned! W/O a mag and a .416 Wby. Mag 400 gr at that. Your all a bunch of pussies if you can' t handle a slight bit of recoil like 74.7. Me, I always carry a .600 N.E. 900 gr. Just like mastercard wouldn' t leave home w/o it. Now that' s a elk rifle. With the mild recoil of 154.0 I don' t see why anyone would go afield with anything less. I just tie a pillow to my ass to soften the landings.[&:].

P.S. My chiropractor loves my choice of ammo.

RE: Deliver Me From Magnums?
 

Pillow? We need to work on your technique!

EKM