Is there a trend here?
10-05-2009, 08:40 AM
#21
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Wright, WY
Posts: 1,281
Muley, Those 1/3 are probably the ones with more money than they no what to do with and expect that a guided hunt will be 100% success. They watch the TV shows and say hey that would be fun to try and go do it I would guess.
I would love to go into the back country on horseback for a week or more. I do not have horses so that would be a guided hunt that I could see myself doing. Much cheaper than owning horses all year I would guess.
I would love to go into the back country on horseback for a week or more. I do not have horses so that would be a guided hunt that I could see myself doing. Much cheaper than owning horses all year I would guess.
10-05-2009, 09:03 AM
#22
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cedar Valley Utah
Posts: 977
A little different perspective here. I live right in the middle of a great elk and mule deer state. We also have moose and antelope along with sheep and goats as well. So needless to say I get an opportunity to hunt pretty much what ever I want as long as I can get the tag, but that's another subject.
Having said that due to changes in local populations and increased hunter presence I too have had to do the "Google Earth, Topo Map" method to find new hunting areas. I too have found great areas this way and immediately got into game without scouting.
BUT....I have also been hunting these species for many years. I have a pretty good understanding of the habitat they need and how hunters may hunt it do to difficulty in getting in the area. So even though I may be able to use Google Earth and good topo map to find great areas I also acknowledge that I do that with a lot of experience behind me.
I have never hunted whitetail in my life. If I were looking at a midwestern state to hunt them it would be a whole different ball game. Having no experience hunting them would make me question any type of decision I may try and make as far as hunting areas. That coupled with the fact that every penny counts and traveling a long way to realize I struck out completely on my choice of hunting grounds would drive me to look at hiring an outfitter. If I was looking at hunting elk or mule deer in another state then I would probably pass on hiring an outfitter and rely on my many years of experience. That and if I don't get one in another state then I still can come home and hunt them or go get them next year.
I just think for some guys the western hunting experience is new and probably more like a once in a lifetime (or at least a seldom in a lifetime) experience. Saving for a few years and hiring an outfitter isn't a bad way to go for some of these guys.
When I was in college I worked part time as a snowboard instructor. The locals thought taking lessons was lame. They could come up on the moutain anytime and have freinds teach them how at a fairly low expense. But some people came from all over the world and had one week to ski or snowboard and they needed to learn how to quickly to maximize that experience. Besides hiring an instructor, or outfitter, only contributes to the local economy. Heck it paid for some of books so that I could go through college.
I have no issues with outfitting and guiding, I think it's great. I have issues with dishonest and corrupt outfitters and guides.
Having said that due to changes in local populations and increased hunter presence I too have had to do the "Google Earth, Topo Map" method to find new hunting areas. I too have found great areas this way and immediately got into game without scouting.
BUT....I have also been hunting these species for many years. I have a pretty good understanding of the habitat they need and how hunters may hunt it do to difficulty in getting in the area. So even though I may be able to use Google Earth and good topo map to find great areas I also acknowledge that I do that with a lot of experience behind me.
I have never hunted whitetail in my life. If I were looking at a midwestern state to hunt them it would be a whole different ball game. Having no experience hunting them would make me question any type of decision I may try and make as far as hunting areas. That coupled with the fact that every penny counts and traveling a long way to realize I struck out completely on my choice of hunting grounds would drive me to look at hiring an outfitter. If I was looking at hunting elk or mule deer in another state then I would probably pass on hiring an outfitter and rely on my many years of experience. That and if I don't get one in another state then I still can come home and hunt them or go get them next year.
I just think for some guys the western hunting experience is new and probably more like a once in a lifetime (or at least a seldom in a lifetime) experience. Saving for a few years and hiring an outfitter isn't a bad way to go for some of these guys.
When I was in college I worked part time as a snowboard instructor. The locals thought taking lessons was lame. They could come up on the moutain anytime and have freinds teach them how at a fairly low expense. But some people came from all over the world and had one week to ski or snowboard and they needed to learn how to quickly to maximize that experience. Besides hiring an instructor, or outfitter, only contributes to the local economy. Heck it paid for some of books so that I could go through college.
I have no issues with outfitting and guiding, I think it's great. I have issues with dishonest and corrupt outfitters and guides.
10-06-2009, 06:10 AM
#23
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 171
[QUOTE=....;
I have no issues with outfitting and guiding, I think it's great. I have issues with dishonest and corrupt outfitters and guides.[/QUOTE]
And that is what this thread is about, the old bait and switch scams or prefered treatment some outfitters give TV personality hunters.
I personally have been in a camp on a trip that cost me 2 weeks of valuble vacation time that once used couldn't be reclaimed and with a few thousand dollars invested in the trip only to be told by the guide," the owner wants us not to go onto that ranch an disturb the elk there..." and when I pressured the guide as to why he finally related to me," Mr X. from the popular TV hunting show is coming next week to film an elk hunt there an there are a few really high scoring bulls held up on that ranch..." That is BS not to mention unethical and it seems as though more and more stories like this are getting made puiblic by irrate Joe Schmoes whom are tired of this treatment. Treatment that seems to be a spin off of the modern age of TV hunting shows. I for one am leery of any show that depicts a hunter whom has several farms under his sole lease and control, is capable of passing a mature buck because "he just needs 1 more year to really reach his full potential at 7 yrs of age,etc" then is haled as the greatest whitetail archer whomever drew a bow. That isn't real life hunting that's farming whitetails for the TV industry and will lead to the down fall of hunting in the future, IMHO.
I have no issues with outfitting and guiding, I think it's great. I have issues with dishonest and corrupt outfitters and guides.[/QUOTE]
And that is what this thread is about, the old bait and switch scams or prefered treatment some outfitters give TV personality hunters.
I personally have been in a camp on a trip that cost me 2 weeks of valuble vacation time that once used couldn't be reclaimed and with a few thousand dollars invested in the trip only to be told by the guide," the owner wants us not to go onto that ranch an disturb the elk there..." and when I pressured the guide as to why he finally related to me," Mr X. from the popular TV hunting show is coming next week to film an elk hunt there an there are a few really high scoring bulls held up on that ranch..." That is BS not to mention unethical and it seems as though more and more stories like this are getting made puiblic by irrate Joe Schmoes whom are tired of this treatment. Treatment that seems to be a spin off of the modern age of TV hunting shows. I for one am leery of any show that depicts a hunter whom has several farms under his sole lease and control, is capable of passing a mature buck because "he just needs 1 more year to really reach his full potential at 7 yrs of age,etc" then is haled as the greatest whitetail archer whomever drew a bow. That isn't real life hunting that's farming whitetails for the TV industry and will lead to the down fall of hunting in the future, IMHO.
10-06-2009, 09:34 AM
#25
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cedar Valley Utah
Posts: 977
Potterco I hear you and I would feel exactly the same way you would if I had been in your situation.
Unfortunately, and I really mean that, the corporate business model is making it's way to every nook and cranny in this country. Mom and Pop don't have a chance. The corporate business model being razor thin profits with emphasis on marketing due to fierce competition for business. That's exactly what your outfitter was doing, and what he was doing was probably best for his business.
At the risk of sounding like I support this behavior let me first say I do not. Having said that I believe that we must first stop being a part of the problem. You, the consumer, drive what business model succeeds. TV and pricing are only tools and tactics businesses use to attract you but they don't make a dime until you open your wallet. As consumers usually one of the major deciding factors is price. Well should we maybe look past the most competitive pricing and choose an outiftter that we know doesn't practice having TV personalities on their ranches? By advertising and bringing more business they are able to sacrifice quality (which costs more) for quantity. Quantity makes the most money.
If you want to solve the problem then don't be a part of it. Not saying you were, I'm just saying we need to look at how we spend our money a little differently if we want to stop some of these things.
Unfortunately, and I really mean that, the corporate business model is making it's way to every nook and cranny in this country. Mom and Pop don't have a chance. The corporate business model being razor thin profits with emphasis on marketing due to fierce competition for business. That's exactly what your outfitter was doing, and what he was doing was probably best for his business.
At the risk of sounding like I support this behavior let me first say I do not. Having said that I believe that we must first stop being a part of the problem. You, the consumer, drive what business model succeeds. TV and pricing are only tools and tactics businesses use to attract you but they don't make a dime until you open your wallet. As consumers usually one of the major deciding factors is price. Well should we maybe look past the most competitive pricing and choose an outiftter that we know doesn't practice having TV personalities on their ranches? By advertising and bringing more business they are able to sacrifice quality (which costs more) for quantity. Quantity makes the most money.
If you want to solve the problem then don't be a part of it. Not saying you were, I'm just saying we need to look at how we spend our money a little differently if we want to stop some of these things.
10-06-2009, 10:09 AM
#26
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 171
wheatley the guide was a decent sort of fella and hunted his tail off for me no problems with him at all. But the outfitter whom I booked with on that hunt should've been up front with his clients telling us he had a TV crew coming in and the better ranches would be off limits until they were done filming giving us the option to cancel our hunts with refunds of the deposits...rather he just kept quite about it and hunted us on marginal ground so as not to loose the money from our hunts..he no doubt had donated the TV crews hunt in exchange for the advertisment he was getting from it.
Rather b hunting, this hunt was booked thru a hunting consultant Jim McCarthy of Harrisburg, Pa whom I had used in the past...the outfitter was a very successful Mom & Pop style whom had chosen to offer the TV deal to expand their business for the future. As with many outfitters in the west the best leased grounds go for the highest fees, to make the fees you need to sell higher end hunts, to book those hunts you need advertisment...no problem with that from me. But to not disclose to the booking agent nor the client that you've decided to begin dpoing so after you took their deposit is little short of dishonesty.
FTR I have booked hunts with outfitters I saw on TV shows knowing going in what the deal was and made certain of where and when I was going hunting and had great trips.
Rather b hunting, this hunt was booked thru a hunting consultant Jim McCarthy of Harrisburg, Pa whom I had used in the past...the outfitter was a very successful Mom & Pop style whom had chosen to offer the TV deal to expand their business for the future. As with many outfitters in the west the best leased grounds go for the highest fees, to make the fees you need to sell higher end hunts, to book those hunts you need advertisment...no problem with that from me. But to not disclose to the booking agent nor the client that you've decided to begin dpoing so after you took their deposit is little short of dishonesty.
FTR I have booked hunts with outfitters I saw on TV shows knowing going in what the deal was and made certain of where and when I was going hunting and had great trips.
10-06-2009, 11:54 AM
#28
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 211
Potterco I hear you and I would feel exactly the same way you would if I had been in your situation.
Unfortunately, and I really mean that, the corporate business model is making it's way to every nook and cranny in this country. Mom and Pop don't have a chance. The corporate business model being razor thin profits with emphasis on marketing due to fierce competition for business. That's exactly what your outfitter was doing, and what he was doing was probably best for his business.
At the risk of sounding like I support this behavior let me first say I do not. Having said that I believe that we must first stop being a part of the problem. You, the consumer, drive what business model succeeds. TV and pricing are only tools and tactics businesses use to attract you but they don't make a dime until you open your wallet. As consumers usually one of the major deciding factors is price. Well should we maybe look past the most competitive pricing and choose an outiftter that we know doesn't practice having TV personalities on their ranches? By advertising and bringing more business they are able to sacrifice quality (which costs more) for quantity. Quantity makes the most money.
If you want to solve the problem then don't be a part of it. Not saying you were, I'm just saying we need to look at how we spend our money a little differently if we want to stop some of these things.
Unfortunately, and I really mean that, the corporate business model is making it's way to every nook and cranny in this country. Mom and Pop don't have a chance. The corporate business model being razor thin profits with emphasis on marketing due to fierce competition for business. That's exactly what your outfitter was doing, and what he was doing was probably best for his business.
At the risk of sounding like I support this behavior let me first say I do not. Having said that I believe that we must first stop being a part of the problem. You, the consumer, drive what business model succeeds. TV and pricing are only tools and tactics businesses use to attract you but they don't make a dime until you open your wallet. As consumers usually one of the major deciding factors is price. Well should we maybe look past the most competitive pricing and choose an outiftter that we know doesn't practice having TV personalities on their ranches? By advertising and bringing more business they are able to sacrifice quality (which costs more) for quantity. Quantity makes the most money.
If you want to solve the problem then don't be a part of it. Not saying you were, I'm just saying we need to look at how we spend our money a little differently if we want to stop some of these things.
10-06-2009, 01:36 PM
#29
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cedar Valley Utah
Posts: 977
Rather b hunting, this hunt was booked thru a hunting consultant Jim McCarthy of Harrisburg, Pa whom I had used in the past...the outfitter was a very successful Mom & Pop style whom had chosen to offer the TV deal to expand their business for the future. As with many outfitters in the west the best leased grounds go for the highest fees, to make the fees you need to sell higher end hunts, to book those hunts you need advertisment...no problem with that from me. But to not disclose to the booking agent nor the client that you've decided to begin dpoing so after you took their deposit is little short of dishonesty.
FTR I have booked hunts with outfitters I saw on TV shows knowing going in what the deal was and made certain of where and when I was going hunting and had great trips.
FTR I have booked hunts with outfitters I saw on TV shows knowing going in what the deal was and made certain of where and when I was going hunting and had great trips.
Like muley669 said Joe Schmo is the market and collectively we can control the direction the market goes.
Seriously I have to laugh at the guys that complain about this sort of thing but have to have the latest and greatest new bow on the market every year. It's gotta be the fastest and have the newest technology. Then they gotta have the newest type of sites, rests, quivers and on and on. Same thing with clothing and their back packs. My favorite bow is a PSE BabyG that I bought in 1999. I can shoot every bit as well as my friends with that bow as they do with thier new stuff. I"m being modest when I say that too. They make fun of me because I make more money than they do but I have this "old" bow. Which BTW is a former latest and greatest bow in itself. But I have no reason to switch, it works great.
Do you want to hunt or be a walking commercial? That's what I ask them. Guess what they see all this stuff on hunting shows and they bite hook line and sinker. They want to go to Alaska and the outfitter they want to book with they saw on TV. As long as that happens it will only get worse.
If your outfitter would have disclosed that info they would've lost business probably including you. I hate dishonesty but the corporate business model has created a dog eat dog world and they did what they felt like they had to do to survive. It's very sad that's coming down to this. You really have to know all the right questions now days to ask before booking with an outfitter.
Last edited by rather_be_huntin; 10-06-2009 at 01:43 PM.
10-06-2009, 04:04 PM
#30
Typical Buck
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 797
Worried about if your gonna get the biggest elk on a private ranch in a group of hunters. Try being a public land outfitter on national forest and having weather, public hunters, and cranky clients in your success ratio. Give that a try then I'd think you'd have a real complaint. hehe.
But having said that I kinda agree with ya.
But having said that I kinda agree with ya.