ELKampMaster

I find the answers where the folks embellish their " energy numbers" with some substance and qualification are really more meaningful and interesting.

45 caliber - 405 grain bullets; 300 ft lbs for deer, 500 for bear, and 800 for elk; and deep penetrating also -- that one NEEDS some explaining -- what is the weapon? pistol, black powder, slingshot, or overhand pitch? OR were we talking the " pounds" of body weight of the animal and not foot pounds of energy at impact?

Never Go Undergunned,
EKM

ths78

The weapon is a 45-70 govt. rifle. It' s often overshadowed by all the glamour of today' s high-velocity rounds, yet this cartidge has been getting it done on everything on earth for well over 100 years.

No, the #s are the foot pounds of energy that are required by this mamoth 405 slug to adequately and ethically kill an animal quickly when shot through the lungs or heart, not the weight of the animal.

This round has a lot of momentum, and plows through animals at low velocities, leaving gaping holes in lungs, hearts, bone, and anything else that gets in the way.

rather_be_huntin

My opinion is:

900 ft-lbs for deer
1800ft-lbs for elk

voodoosmc

I' m not sure on bullet ballistics, but I thought these numbers for archery might interest somewho don' t bow hunt or haven' t seen them before.

arrow weight(in grains) arrow speed(fps) ke ft/lb
300 300 60
300 250 42
300 200 27
350 300 70
350 250 49
350 200 31
400 300 80
400 250 55
400 200 35
450 300 90
450 250 62
450 200 40
500 300 100
500 250 69
500 200 44
550 300 110
550 250 76
550 200 49
600 300 120
600 250 83
600 200 53
650 300 130
650 250 90
650 200 58
700 300 140
700 250 97
700 200 62

As we get in the upper range in weight ( 550-700 ) obtaining 300fps or even 250 fps, becomes very hard as it would be going into the 100+ lb' s of draw weight, so more than likely those numbers really don' t matter. I' d imagine most compound bowhunters are in the 350-500 grain arrow weight range. While most tradtinal guys are going to be in the 500-700 grain range. Personally I' m shooting a 435 grain arrow right around 260 ( 28" draw @ 70 lb draw weight on a dual cam pse (compound ) from 96, XSR-3000 ) for 65 ft/lb of ke which I feel is much more than enough fo anything in North America but I like short blood trailing jobs and I can shoot it comfortably and accurately.

From the Gold Tip ( arrow manu I prefer ) website:
Forty (40) foot pounds will allow a total pass through on a whitetail deer.
Fifty (50) foot pounds of kinetic energy are suggested for hunting elk.

I fully understand guns kill in a different manner than bows but I do find it interesting to see the large differnce in the energy. Anyways my min. KE for a bow is as follows:
min ok best animal
35 40 45+ small/med. whitetails/turkeys/antelope
40 45 50+ big whitetail' s/mulies/sheep/goat/smaller black bear/caribou
50 55 60+ elk/moose/larger black bear/bison/muskox
60 65 70+ brown bear/polar bear

At least that is what I would want if I were to hunt anyone of those animals. Of those animals my personal experince is limited to whitetail/turkeys so you can take what I said with a grain of salt.

ELKampMaster

I have a 45-70 -- a great and timeless round, and ample for deer, bear, and elk especially if used within its range limitations.
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Deer 300, Bear 500, Elk 800 ft lbs energy......

My question is not the cartride nor the rifle but the minimum energies as stated.
Though certainly not a flat shooter, a 45-70 govt STILL has 800 or so foot pounds at 400 yards after falling out of the sky many feet.

So, at the gut level, does the energy remaining (800 lbs or so) in a 45-70 at 400 yards (assuming you could connect at that range) provide enough giddy, up, and go to cleanly kill an elk with a hard cast lead bullet ripping a long and wide wound channel? I' m a believer in the " momentum" component of killing power, but I' m not sure that dog will hunt.......

Fortunately, the limited range of the 45-70 is likely to insure that you are hitting them with much, much more kinetic energy than your stated minimums.
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We have this much in common --- I think your rifle and cartridge are fine --- the momentum factor of killing power is underestimated, and hitting them with much more energy than ones personal minimums is a good thing.

In any case....

Never Go Undergunned
EKM

bigbulls

voodoosmc, an arrow and a bullet kill in two completely different ways. A bullet is designed to kill by shock, transfering its' energy, to vital organs thereby destroying them. An arrow kills by slicing through vital organs and arteries and bleeding the animal to death.

For a 180 grain bullet to get down to about 60 ftlbs it would have to be traveling at less than 400 FPS. That is not going to be able to kill much outside a coyote, maybe.

voodoosmc

I was just comparing the differences. I understand how a bow kills and how a gun kills, it' s just interesting to me about the large differnce in ke. I didn' t mean to suggest that they are the same. Only to suppily some comparetive information for those of us who bow hunt. I wasn' t sure if you were limiting this to gun or not but from our last post I thinking that you were. I didn' t mean to post off topic I was simply providing the info you were asking for ( admitally with a bunch of extra' s that weren' t needed, so I got a little carried away talking about bowhunting, that' s never happend before ) in the first post.

bigbulls

Yeah, guess I should have mentioned that. I figured you knew the differences between a gun and bow. It is interesting to see how little energy is required to cut through something as opposed to punch through something. Yeah, me either! I never do that!