Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

Here' s a factual situation from a fortnight ago.
My hunting buddy Kevin stalked a Wapiti Bull that was bugling it' s lungs out. He only gave one Bull call, and this animal became totally enraged, it came crashing toward him, really worked up. He steadies himself, takes aim and decides on a head shot, as the animal was only 40 yards out. The bullet entered just below the eye and exited out the back of the skull. The animal dropped in it' s tracks, but then got up and kept on coming at him. His second shot was in the neck. The bullet entered about 8 inchs below the head and took out the windpipe, it did not however hit the spine/neck bones. The animal collapsed again, but again it found it' s feet and just kept on coming. Kev was getting real nervous at this stage as the rifle only takes three rounds. The third shot from about 10 yards was into the chest. It took the top off the heart and smashed ribs and one leg bone. This time the animal went down for good. The rifle was a Sauer .270. The Ammo Federal Premium Factory Load in 130 grain.
We are both amazed how tough it is to put an animal down when he is full of adrenalin. The animal was a large bodied and very old Bull.

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

It just goes to show you. To try to shoot an animal in the head is just plain irresponsible. If he had taken out the heart, lungs and legs first then he would not have had to shoot it three times.

Don' t blame the 270 for not having enough power for elk, blame the guy behind the trigger for this one!The animal wasn' t the problem. The problem was Kev should have taken the third shot first.

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

Tim,

Your story does not surprise me at all -- they are amazing animals.
I tend to agree with bigbulls as I personally don' t favor neck and head shots as the best choice -- I' m a " bust them in the shoulder" man myself, however.....

Many, many people -- especially those going after elk for the first time with " deer hunting" expectations as their benchmark (which may or may not be the case with your friend) have come to find out that a bull elk is one TOUGH critter.

Still recommend big tools for big jobs.

Never Go Undergunned,
EKM

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

I find the word " Irresponsible" a bit strong. I say good on him if he can pull off the shot in the heat of the moment. I tend to play it safe on close in shots where time is limited and take the shot in the bigger body mass area of the chest and neck base.
The first shot blew out the back of the skull, there was massive damage. Have taken plenty of sucessful head shots, the most memorable being a side on, that caused the antlers to collapse either side of the ears, before the animal hit the deck.
Have also had a situation where I shot a yearling front on mid chest with a .308 180 grain. The animal leapt up a 10 foot bank and ran 100 metres before stopping, and only then dropped when a second shot through the neck poleaxed it. When I gutted it, the heart and lugs were totally pulped.
I don' t knock head and neck shots if you' re competant to take them.
When I was meat hunting (Commercial recovery) a premium was paid for head and neck shots, as less meat is spoiled, so you got good at taking them.

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

In the photo you can just see the entry wound by the right eye. The exit took out a large chunk of the skull and the brain had massive damage.
I respect what you guys are saying, but the point being made is that when these animals are pumped, they take a helluva lot of stopping, and the adrenalin effect should not be underestimated.

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

I am going to have to agree with irresponsible on this one. We hunters have a bad enough name already, this is the kind of thing that makes the damn environmentalists sqwuak. I am a little bit of a " bigger is better" type, so I am not a big fan of seeing what kind of bullet you can get away with, rather opting to put the animal down in its tracks (without it getting up). Therefore, I think a .270 is light for elk. Get something like a .300 mag, 338/378 Weatherby Mag better yet, and put the thing down quick.

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

I' m not a fan of head shots or 130 gr. bullets. Since I wasn' t there and don' t know his experience I won' t pass judgement tho. That must of been a hell of a rush for Kev tho![:o]

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

What the hell this feller got fer brains? Sewage would be my guess. Headshots on wapiti ARE irresponsible, period! 130 grain .270s are deer bullets, an' then they ain' t a sure bet at close ranges. The two peoples in this world I got no no patience fer is politickers an' head shooters. Well...thet ain' t completely true. There' s lawyers, frenchmen, an' hoosiers too. An' folks from New Jersey jus' irritate the hell outta me. Mos' californians too. Texans. Cheesehaids. Anybody with facial piercings. Brits. Telephone operators .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .........................

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

Well it is pretty obvious from your story that your friend didn' t " pull it off" . Otherwise there would have been no need for a second and thrid shot now would there? Irresponsible is not quite strong enough in my opinion.

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

Adrenaline is very potent in animals don' t ever forget that. Onto head neck shots it is a matter of 1/4 inches when you head neck shoot animals. I am not agreeing with the majority here i have killed alot of animals with one shot kills with a rifle head neck area i have also passed on alot of animals that i could not gaurantee a sure kill on, it boils down to a person must know with certaintee where his bullet or arrow is going to hit not just a general area. The reason people get so upset over head neck shots is there is little room for error maybe the bullet was a little high or a little low but it certainle did not detsroy the brain wich was probably the intent if it had the animal would have been down. Everybody wants to jump on the wagon here and condemn your partner but i am sure some people have had three shot kills in the body cavity also. speaking of adrenaline this should really get some people riled up.

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

Well ain' t that a coincidence; Kev' s a politician with a part time job as a telephone operater, and he' s studying to be a lawyer. His mother is from Texas and his father is a frenchman, hell I' m sure he lived in California for a while, and yes he has both ears and his nose pierced...said something about wanting to go Elk hunting up your way next season...

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

I use a 270 win also. 130 gr bullets,great for deer. shot placement is the most important. Head shots should be avoided.I have personally had trouble with head shots. I managed to recover the animals. I have also had to shoot a couple of deer that some other hunter has tried to head shoot , blown the lower jaw off,and other parts of the head that weren' t fatel. What a waste.I now only shoot for the lungs or heart. For elk or moose I' d use 150 gr or 160 gr bullets out of a 270 win. I now use a 300 win mag 180 gr nosler parts.

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

Calling someone irresponsible on this is a bit much. In the heat of the moment we Humans sometimes don' t think clearly. He made a mistake and I am sure the man learned from it and thankfully he recovered the animal. I give him the benefit of the doubt.

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

Two problems jump out, 130 gr bullet and head shot. I' ve been taught since I was a little guy that if all you have is a head shot, you don' t have any shot at all. Even though I don' t like a 270 for elk hunting because of limited range at 40yds it should work fine. Always shoot for the boiler room. Even though you' ve had experience shooting one in the heart and lungs and it ran off, thats the exception not the rule. Head shots are always iffy.

However to answer your post, these animals are extremely hard to bring down. In my opinion they are tougher than moose to drop.

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

The CLOSER the range the more likely a light bullet will break up when hitting tough meat an' bone. 130s ain' t no good at 40 yards for badgers, let alone wapiti. Haid shots are disrespectful an' plain stupid on such animals.

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

i agree with the Beav plain DUMB shot. give me a 06 or 300 mag with 200 grain good bullets and i will break his shoulders down and i won' t have to chase him around the mountains like a billy goat

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

Wow! Great story. Your friend sounds like an excellent hunter. It' s nice to see he managed to keep his composure and got the job done. There' s probably a few that wouldn' t have held their ground for the third shot. How would have liked to have been his heart? Can you imagine the adrenaline? Hats off.

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

He managed to keep his composure and get the job done. But, there would have been no need to keep any composure had the first bullet been through the lungs and heart. Good under pressure? Maybe. Excelent hunter? I don' t think so.

I don' t need to shoot an animal three times to get an adrenaline rush. Standing 40 yards and making a good clean one shot kill is enough for me.

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

BigBulls, maybe I read the story wrong but it seems to me the first shot was taken as the animal was charging him. I doubt a lung shot would be either possible or practical. The shot I' d try to make on a charging animal at 40 yards is one thats going to drop it in it' s tracks. I think the gentleman did a remarkable job in holding his ground.

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

Even more of a reason not to take a head shot on a moving animal. Yes he did a good job at holding his ground and finishing the job.

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

Sorry Tim,

All we have is perfect hunters here. They never miss, always spot-on. They all use huge caliber rifles. No deer has ever run from a good hit with a huge caliber, right? And all their lives, they have only taken broadside shots. They all have a degree in law, so everything you say will be dissected to make them sound smarter. Oh, and did I add that they are well pronounced in the english language? There will be no interpretations of the word " irresponsible" . DO YOU UNDERSTAND? ;);):D:D:D

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

No, I don' t understand - Jetblast - just what are you trying to say! Was there something that you didn' t like about this kill?:D

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

JetBlast,
That is some good healthy sarcasim there, especially regarding the " perfect hunter" standard! I like that part!:D

BTW, to prevent confusion, I still think it is still preferable for folks to take a minute, study the whole thread so they REALLY know what is being discussed, think of a response that is relevant to the thread, and then " say (write) what they mean and mean what they say" so the rest of the world doesn' t have to guess. [:' (]

Never Go Undergunned,
EKM

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

It may be a good idea to remember in Tim' s part of the world these animals are considered pests by many, and are often culled out of helicopters. Chamois, Thar, Reds, etc, all gunned down like a slow Iraqi, to prevent damage to the environment. Hard to equal that scenario to a much coveted New Mexico trophy tag.

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

I like head shots on game, killed my first elk with a .270 and a head shot between the eyes. He dropped in his tracks. Killed a couple of whitetails too - head shots. Heads shots are by and large they drop or they run away unscathed - clean misses. How many body shot deer get away every year ? Think about that before calling head shots irresponsible.

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

Zelany, I would suspect a lot of those deer and elk that ran off " unscathed" , did so with their jaw or nose shot off. Certainly not an ethical shot.
I was just pointing out that f Tim and his buddies don' t get them, head shot or not, a scenario awaits where the anmal would probably wish they had been shot in the head.

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

Will throw in a few additional comments, as this thread seems to have created a bit of interest.
The bull in question was moving down hill, and lower part of body was obscured by scrub i.e. head & neck were the only visable target, for the first two shots.
Kev had a genuine concern for his safety. No handy trees to climb.
The first shot entered near right eye (See photo) and exited just below left coronet, exit wound was about inch and half in diameter. There was, as already mentioned, massive brain damage, enough, one would think, to have a very dead animal. Hard to argue that the shot placement was not in the " So-called" right place.
Kev is a very experienced hunter and an accurate marksmen, he is not a promoter of head shots, and seldom takes them. Cool under pressure-Yes. On the very same day he shot another bull, with a very well placed broadside shot, this bull ran on for about 150 yards. I was there. We had considerable difficulty locating him in thick scrub, but he was very dead when found. Heart and a significant portion of lungs were in tatters, but the bullet did not break any leg bone, only rib.
The thread was not intended to promote headshots, I am no fan, and like others have seen the after-effect, when they go wrong. The intention was to discuss the adrenalin effect.
I would hope that no young/new hunter would take the discussion here as a green light, on headshooting.
They have a Very Limited application at close quarters and only when a hunter is Very Confident in marksmenship and rifle/bow' s placement.

Zealazny: Thank you for your honesty. I think there are plenty on this board who have taken headshots, but prefer not to enter the discussion. However I don' t think the 50/50 outcome is entirely accurate i.e. dead or miss. There' s a lot of opportunity to shoot badly on a headshot as the target area is only a very small percentage of the head area, lets see, at an estimate 3 square inches out of 100 square inchs of target.
6ptsika (Do you hunt sika?) Your facts on NZ are correct. All big game here are classified by our government as noxious, and have pest status. Isn' t that ridiculous. There are plenty of us who are actively lobbying to change this situation. However even though this is the case, and we have access to a large volume of hunting, this is not a justification to take any less care with shot placements, than your once a year New Mexico Elk hunter. I assure you that there is just as must importance placed on humane harvesting here, as there is in your country.
Jetblast: The smiley faces assist a little in clarifying what you' re trying to say. I think I know where you' re coming from, there is a certain sort of attitude from some contributers on this board. I think it is known as " Dualism" i.e. where only one point of view counts, rather than discussion.
Personally i' m glad there is some diversity in the world.
EKM. Hear..Hear.. I agree make it clear what your message is.

Anybody doing any hunting lately???

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

i dont think it was the andrenaline effect that kept it moving... HINT HINT
just be smart and dont go for a headshot
-hotgunner[8D]

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

Tim,
I can honestly say that I' ve never taken a head shot, it' s one of the most moveable parts of the body. I try to wait it out for a shot behind the shoulder or one in the chest. If the animal walks away, I get to go after him another day & I have the great experience of getting to see the animal in the wild. I' m not going to judge someone for the shot that they took b/c I wasn' t in their shoes to make the decision. People alot of times can say I would' ve done it or I wouldn' t have done it.........you just don' t know until you are in that situation.

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

I' ve been thinking ... I can' t think of a single animal I head shot at (squirrel, rabbits, deer, elk) that I didn' t either drop in their tracks (or out of the trees) or miss. Maybe you guys just shoot really poorly ? :)

Tim - keep on head shooting if you can make the shots - save meat and drops them in their tracks ...

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

I doubt there are many on this board that shoot poorly in a controlled situation. When you are in a hunting situation and the buck fever is kicking in, you may be puffing from exertion, have no steady rest, and maybe time is very limited, yes maybe.
All the more reason to take on a target area with higher percentage of sucess.
Yes anyone can shoot poorly. I' ve seen that happen many times.
I once stood next to a fellow who emptied his magazine at a spiker standing broadside at 50 yards, not one shot connected. I took the animal for him with a well placed single shot, then made him test fire his rifle. He produced a very tight group, so nothing wrong with the rifle.
Yes headshots save some meat. Just yesterday I shot two sheep (About 150 pounds each.) with headshots, but in a very controlled situation. These were for the pot, shot in the paddock, on the farm, at 50 yards and with a nice steady rest (On the tractor tyre.) I had all the time in the world, and yes the shots were effective.
As I write the roast is wafting from the kitchen..mmmmm..:)
Earlier in the week I was hunting Chamois and faced with a similar shot over same distance, plenty of time, good rest etc. But choose to take a well placed heart shot, which was also very effective. Result a nice fat buck for the freezer.
In a hunting situation, I personally do not have the confidence that I can take the low percentage shot accurately in most scenarios, and would rather sacrifice a little of the meat.
How much meat would you loose from shot damage, I' d say 2-5 pounds at most, although at times the bruising is extensive and can ruin a whole quarter or more.

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

Zeal,
Maybe you jus' ain' t shot enuff animals? I' ve seen squirrels jump up from a head shot. Saw a bull elk las' season fall down a hill lay there until we was on him, an' then raise his haid, missin' the back of his skull, tryin' his heart out to git up. Found a cow onct with no snout. Horrible way to die. Haid shootin' is like drivin' thout a seat belt.....It only takes once to sour you on it.

RE: Three Shots to put a Bull down.
 

with a poor head or neck shot you kill the animal and usually loose all the meat