Spider bull has been killed
10-07-2008, 09:38 PM
#81
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,701
RE: Spider bull has been killed
MTdream my response to that is Hunters need to take their own trash out before someone does it for us. I'll side with ARA's anytime in that canned hunting isn't hunting at all and these stunts done with Spider bull aren't hunting either.
Thats right, you can read it again - I'll NEVER take the back of a fellow "hunter" when he/she does things that are anti-hunting in nature. What was done with the spider bull was anti-hunting
CAelknuts first off, thank you for taking the time in that response.
question - lets say you have hunted a specific animal for 2-3 years. Its late season and you finally get your opportunity .... and he's broken 1/2 his right side off. Do you shoot or not ?
As for me .... I shoot. Why ? Its the challenge of beating that mature animal on his turf for one - and you relate to that. Also, its the experience, the chase, the all encompassing HUNT and you relate to that too. In every way you've done everything the same as if he'd had a full rack ........ whats it matter then other than he won't score high in a make believe scoring system like B&C or P&Y ?
Do you shoot ?
I'm not your age, I'll be 40 next year. My memory sucks, but I remember shooting my first squirrell, I remember all the hunts with my buddy Mike when I was a kid, the fishing trips, calling in a bull elk, decoying in a antelope, the northern lights in Quebec ........ I get everything you say there about hunting.
that is where we differ, because I have been involved enough to SEE how people's actions affect everybody elses privaledges/rights. The actions of a few can ruin it all for the rest of us - do you agree with that ?
Thats right, you can read it again - I'll NEVER take the back of a fellow "hunter" when he/she does things that are anti-hunting in nature. What was done with the spider bull was anti-hunting
CAelknuts first off, thank you for taking the time in that response.
question - lets say you have hunted a specific animal for 2-3 years. Its late season and you finally get your opportunity .... and he's broken 1/2 his right side off. Do you shoot or not ?
As for me .... I shoot. Why ? Its the challenge of beating that mature animal on his turf for one - and you relate to that. Also, its the experience, the chase, the all encompassing HUNT and you relate to that too. In every way you've done everything the same as if he'd had a full rack ........ whats it matter then other than he won't score high in a make believe scoring system like B&C or P&Y ?
Do you shoot ?
I'm not your age, I'll be 40 next year. My memory sucks, but I remember shooting my first squirrell, I remember all the hunts with my buddy Mike when I was a kid, the fishing trips, calling in a bull elk, decoying in a antelope, the northern lights in Quebec ........ I get everything you say there about hunting.
I'll worry about my hunts, you worry about yours.
that is where we differ, because I have been involved enough to SEE how people's actions affect everybody elses privaledges/rights. The actions of a few can ruin it all for the rest of us - do you agree with that ?
10-07-2008, 10:42 PM
#82
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 112
RE: Spider bull has been killed
To answer another of your questions, who knows what I'd do? I certainly don't. I was talking with the rancher from whom I lease hunting privileges for deer and turkeys near where I live. We got to talking about the bucks we've each shot on his ranch and he asked what kind of buck I'd shot last year. I informed him that I haven't killed a buck on his ranches for the last two seasons. He was stunned. It hasn't been for lack of opportunity, as last year I could have shot any of 45-50 different bucks. Same with turkeys, I could easily killed my 3 bird limit any of the last few years, but have only shot one bird per year. I used to always kill 3, plus one or two in the fall, but it just doesn't matter as much these days. What does matter is having quality time in the field. If I kill a buck, I don't have a reason to go hunting anymore.
Two years ago, I drew a mountain goat tag and booked a guided hunt with an excellent outfitter. We hada very nice late season hunt, in November. On the fourth day, our only good day weather-wise, we got to within 90 yards of a really nice billy. We also knew that he was with two other big billys, but we could only see the one goat. The outfitter told me he was going to sneak down the mountain a bit to look for the other billies, and that I should stay with this goat, and it was up to me if I wanted to shoot him or not. I watched that goat for over 8 minutes, and mentally I shot him many times, putting the scope on his shoulder and knowing that all I had to do was slide the safey off and give the trigger a gentle squeeze. BUT, I knew there was a bigger billy there somewhere, so I held off. The 3rd guy in our group was about 400 yards above me filming the action. He was beside himself when we met later, as he couldn't understand why I didn't shoot the billy since he was a very nice goat with great hair, and the big billy that I wanted was in his viewfinder also, about 40 yards from the other goat, but hidden from my view by timber. Finally, the goat I could have shot walked off, and I never saw them again. The next day a storm blew in and my goat hunt was effectively over. It was a long drive home, and more than a few times I wondered why I didn't shoot the billy when I could have. It was an excellent hunt, and he was a fine trophy. I wanted the bigger goat and didn't get him. Mind you, we're talking about maybe 1" extra horn length and some mass, that's all, but that is why I waited.
If you know why I passed those opportunities up, then you probably know what I'd do if confronted with the situation you outlined. As for me, I have no idea what I'd do. Possibly, I'd just take his picture and say, have a great fall, big fella. Either way, I'd walk away satisfied and know that I had a good hunt.
As for your final comment, I don't really agree with it all that much. I don't think my actions affect anyone else's rights or privileges. I do think that slobs affect all of us negatively, but I also think that cynics such as yourself do us more ofa dis-service than you do good. I think that unethical slobs are the anit's best weapon to use against us, but I'm not sure that people such as you are that far behind them, as I think you're a willing cooperator with the antis, at least in your loathing of other hunters who don't do things the way you believe we all should do things. I don't belive in complaining and outlining what others who hunt do wrong, I try to spend my energies positively influencing kids who are getting into the sport, or taking other people who don't have the opportunities I've enjoyed, but who might love to go and share in some of the many great experiences I've been blessed to enjoy.
In closing, over on bowsite, wedebated one time about sharing, or not, a campfire with each other. I said that I wouldn't care to share a campfire with you, and I meant that. You countered by saying that you'd welcome me to share your camp anytime. Perhaps so. If I ever came across you out in the woods and you were in need, I'd do anything for you. If you were out of gas, I'd help you, if you were sick or hurt, I'd help you. If you needed food or shelter, I wouldn't turn you away, I'd help you. Hell, if you had a bull down and truly needed help, I'd probably help you then as well. BUT, if all was good, there just isn't any way that I'd ever care to share an evening around a campfire with you. We're very diametricly opposed in how we view hunting, and I suspect, most other issues related to our society. I go hunting to experience some of the best days in my entire year, having positive experiences. I've never viewed you as a positive person, or someone I'd care to stare at flames with. No offense intended toward you personally, I just wanted to elaborate that I think you and I are two very different people who would not ever be even slightly compatible.
Two years ago, I drew a mountain goat tag and booked a guided hunt with an excellent outfitter. We hada very nice late season hunt, in November. On the fourth day, our only good day weather-wise, we got to within 90 yards of a really nice billy. We also knew that he was with two other big billys, but we could only see the one goat. The outfitter told me he was going to sneak down the mountain a bit to look for the other billies, and that I should stay with this goat, and it was up to me if I wanted to shoot him or not. I watched that goat for over 8 minutes, and mentally I shot him many times, putting the scope on his shoulder and knowing that all I had to do was slide the safey off and give the trigger a gentle squeeze. BUT, I knew there was a bigger billy there somewhere, so I held off. The 3rd guy in our group was about 400 yards above me filming the action. He was beside himself when we met later, as he couldn't understand why I didn't shoot the billy since he was a very nice goat with great hair, and the big billy that I wanted was in his viewfinder also, about 40 yards from the other goat, but hidden from my view by timber. Finally, the goat I could have shot walked off, and I never saw them again. The next day a storm blew in and my goat hunt was effectively over. It was a long drive home, and more than a few times I wondered why I didn't shoot the billy when I could have. It was an excellent hunt, and he was a fine trophy. I wanted the bigger goat and didn't get him. Mind you, we're talking about maybe 1" extra horn length and some mass, that's all, but that is why I waited.
If you know why I passed those opportunities up, then you probably know what I'd do if confronted with the situation you outlined. As for me, I have no idea what I'd do. Possibly, I'd just take his picture and say, have a great fall, big fella. Either way, I'd walk away satisfied and know that I had a good hunt.
As for your final comment, I don't really agree with it all that much. I don't think my actions affect anyone else's rights or privileges. I do think that slobs affect all of us negatively, but I also think that cynics such as yourself do us more ofa dis-service than you do good. I think that unethical slobs are the anit's best weapon to use against us, but I'm not sure that people such as you are that far behind them, as I think you're a willing cooperator with the antis, at least in your loathing of other hunters who don't do things the way you believe we all should do things. I don't belive in complaining and outlining what others who hunt do wrong, I try to spend my energies positively influencing kids who are getting into the sport, or taking other people who don't have the opportunities I've enjoyed, but who might love to go and share in some of the many great experiences I've been blessed to enjoy.
In closing, over on bowsite, wedebated one time about sharing, or not, a campfire with each other. I said that I wouldn't care to share a campfire with you, and I meant that. You countered by saying that you'd welcome me to share your camp anytime. Perhaps so. If I ever came across you out in the woods and you were in need, I'd do anything for you. If you were out of gas, I'd help you, if you were sick or hurt, I'd help you. If you needed food or shelter, I wouldn't turn you away, I'd help you. Hell, if you had a bull down and truly needed help, I'd probably help you then as well. BUT, if all was good, there just isn't any way that I'd ever care to share an evening around a campfire with you. We're very diametricly opposed in how we view hunting, and I suspect, most other issues related to our society. I go hunting to experience some of the best days in my entire year, having positive experiences. I've never viewed you as a positive person, or someone I'd care to stare at flames with. No offense intended toward you personally, I just wanted to elaborate that I think you and I are two very different people who would not ever be even slightly compatible.
10-08-2008, 12:23 AM
#83
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,701
RE: Spider bull has been killed
CAelknuts if you didn't know me as stealthycat I bet we'd have a fantasic hunt together
I come across as negative because there is a lot of negativity in hunting in today's world. All the ARA movements, the lawsuits, the bans on cougar hunting, bear hunting, dove hunting, canned hunting, the loss of hunting areas, fewer and fewer hunters in todays world, the outrageous costs of non-res tags ......... we're getting killed as a hunting community and I can tell you 100% for sure that if you explained how the Spider bull hunt went down, every non-hunter out there would be disgusted with it because even though they don't hunt, they KNOW what is fair chase and what isn't and what happened with the Spider bull went too far.
Where you and I differ is that when I see a guy driving an ATV up and down the roads hung over from a night of drinking trying to road shoot and fill his tag, or some guy paying $1500 for a fenced deer or elk kill, or hiring a dozen guys to scout the animal so they can shoot it at opening light ........... I'll stand up and say thats not hunting, the ARA's don't think it is, the non-hunters that make up the majority of people don't think it is and most hunters don't think it is either ........ and I'm NOT going to side with someone on anti-hunting actions just because they bought a license and wearing camo.
There is a line between hunting and killing ........ soemtimes that line is clear, sometimes its blurred, but one thing is for sure, over that line is NOT a good thing for my sport and I'll call it what it is every time and I'll not apologize for doing it.
I come across as negative because there is a lot of negativity in hunting in today's world. All the ARA movements, the lawsuits, the bans on cougar hunting, bear hunting, dove hunting, canned hunting, the loss of hunting areas, fewer and fewer hunters in todays world, the outrageous costs of non-res tags ......... we're getting killed as a hunting community and I can tell you 100% for sure that if you explained how the Spider bull hunt went down, every non-hunter out there would be disgusted with it because even though they don't hunt, they KNOW what is fair chase and what isn't and what happened with the Spider bull went too far.
Where you and I differ is that when I see a guy driving an ATV up and down the roads hung over from a night of drinking trying to road shoot and fill his tag, or some guy paying $1500 for a fenced deer or elk kill, or hiring a dozen guys to scout the animal so they can shoot it at opening light ........... I'll stand up and say thats not hunting, the ARA's don't think it is, the non-hunters that make up the majority of people don't think it is and most hunters don't think it is either ........ and I'm NOT going to side with someone on anti-hunting actions just because they bought a license and wearing camo.
There is a line between hunting and killing ........ soemtimes that line is clear, sometimes its blurred, but one thing is for sure, over that line is NOT a good thing for my sport and I'll call it what it is every time and I'll not apologize for doing it.
10-08-2008, 08:48 AM
#84
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 1,401
RE: Spider bull has been killed
I've really enjoyed these last few posts. Ialso feel that the divisions amoungst huntersopens up the biggest weakness toour sport. To me it comes down to whether the individuals involved are following the law or not. If they are not following the laws andregulations, they aren't a hunter, they are a poacher. If they are following the laws and regulations, they are a hunter.
There are so many controversial issues like private vs. public land, non-resident hunters, outfitters, supplemental feeding, baiting, passing on younger animals, etc. that if we split along each issue we would be hopelessly divided. I say if it is legal in your state, then go for it. I might not feel the same way as you, but if it is legal I'm not going to condemn you for following your state's game laws.
I personally don't think that I could get any satisfaction out of hunting inside a high fence, but that's just me. I'm not going to condemn someone that does it. Most high fence operations are actually well run and in some cases with 1,000's of acres under high fence are even close to fair chase on some animals like whitetail deer, but that is an entirely different argument.
If you go back through this thread you could find folks arguing that payingonepenny for any information that you could use to your benefit would make you an anti-hunter. Others say that a reasonable amount spent for an outfitter is okay, as long as you stay under what they see as a reasonable amount. I saw calls for the end of non-resident hunting, even some folks saying that spending more than a week hunting is wrong. We had another thread going that was somewhat toungue in cheek that was saying that using a rifle to hunt elk wasn't considered truly hunting.
Each state has the right to set their laws and hunting regulations the way they see fit and as long as you follow them, you are a hunter.
Oh well, I don't think there will be a winner to this argument.
There are so many controversial issues like private vs. public land, non-resident hunters, outfitters, supplemental feeding, baiting, passing on younger animals, etc. that if we split along each issue we would be hopelessly divided. I say if it is legal in your state, then go for it. I might not feel the same way as you, but if it is legal I'm not going to condemn you for following your state's game laws.
I personally don't think that I could get any satisfaction out of hunting inside a high fence, but that's just me. I'm not going to condemn someone that does it. Most high fence operations are actually well run and in some cases with 1,000's of acres under high fence are even close to fair chase on some animals like whitetail deer, but that is an entirely different argument.
If you go back through this thread you could find folks arguing that payingonepenny for any information that you could use to your benefit would make you an anti-hunter. Others say that a reasonable amount spent for an outfitter is okay, as long as you stay under what they see as a reasonable amount. I saw calls for the end of non-resident hunting, even some folks saying that spending more than a week hunting is wrong. We had another thread going that was somewhat toungue in cheek that was saying that using a rifle to hunt elk wasn't considered truly hunting.
Each state has the right to set their laws and hunting regulations the way they see fit and as long as you follow them, you are a hunter.
Oh well, I don't think there will be a winner to this argument.
10-08-2008, 09:21 AM
#85
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kalispell, MT
Posts: 171
RE: Spider bull has been killed
ORIGINAL: CAelknuts
In closing, over on bowsite, wedebated one time about sharing, or not, a campfire with each other. I said that I wouldn't care to share a campfire with you, and I meant that. You countered by saying that you'd welcome me to share your camp anytime. Perhaps so. If I ever came across you out in the woods and you were in need, I'd do anything for you. If you were out of gas, I'd help you, if you were sick or hurt, I'd help you. If you needed food or shelter, I wouldn't turn you away, I'd help you. Hell, if you had a bull down and truly needed help, I'd probably help you then as well. BUT, if all was good, there just isn't any way that I'd ever care to share an evening around a campfire with you. We're very diametricly opposed in how we view hunting, and I suspect, most other issues related to our society. I go hunting to experience some of the best days in my entire year, having positive experiences. I've never viewed you as a positive person, or someone I'd care to stare at flames with. No offense intended toward you personally, I just wanted to elaborate that I think you and I are two very different people who would not ever be even slightly compatible.
In closing, over on bowsite, wedebated one time about sharing, or not, a campfire with each other. I said that I wouldn't care to share a campfire with you, and I meant that. You countered by saying that you'd welcome me to share your camp anytime. Perhaps so. If I ever came across you out in the woods and you were in need, I'd do anything for you. If you were out of gas, I'd help you, if you were sick or hurt, I'd help you. If you needed food or shelter, I wouldn't turn you away, I'd help you. Hell, if you had a bull down and truly needed help, I'd probably help you then as well. BUT, if all was good, there just isn't any way that I'd ever care to share an evening around a campfire with you. We're very diametricly opposed in how we view hunting, and I suspect, most other issues related to our society. I go hunting to experience some of the best days in my entire year, having positive experiences. I've never viewed you as a positive person, or someone I'd care to stare at flames with. No offense intended toward you personally, I just wanted to elaborate that I think you and I are two very different people who would not ever be even slightly compatible.
10-08-2008, 09:24 PM
#89
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 2
RE: Spider bull has been killed
ORIGINAL: MTdream
Stealth,
Sun Tzu gave some very appropriate advice...
Maneuvering with an army is advantageous; with an undisciplined multitude, most dangerous.
- Sun Tzu
If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War
Notice a common theme? The pro hunting folk are too busy fighting eachother to fight eh greenies...and they know it...they are using our un-dcisiplined attack tendencies against us...and the worst part..we let them...
oh well, keep fighting against the wrong things and continue to lose or focus on getting the whole team together and see what happens...
Stealth,
Sun Tzu gave some very appropriate advice...
Maneuvering with an army is advantageous; with an undisciplined multitude, most dangerous.
- Sun Tzu
If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War
Notice a common theme? The pro hunting folk are too busy fighting eachother to fight eh greenies...and they know it...they are using our un-dcisiplined attack tendencies against us...and the worst part..we let them...
oh well, keep fighting against the wrong things and continue to lose or focus on getting the whole team together and see what happens...
Keep up the great posts.
Kevin