Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

Whith a host of polls by EKM on elk calibers.With 70% of posters on this board attacking guys who shoot magnums or BIG guns at elk.What about you deer hunters?
After watching(or stomaching)3 hrs of hunting on the various outdoor channels I have to ask.How many of you shoot something bigger than a .243 win at deer?
We all know anything bigger than a .243 is WAY over kill for deer.So why are guys packing 257 Weatherbys?,270 what evers,.300 Mangle & Manglems.
I just wanna know.
Thanks
BBJ

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

Only recently have I used anything less than a .300 Win mag for deer/antelope and elk. Its not what you hit them with, its where. I pack the rifle I want because I realize that few if any 'internet hunters' have much business telling me how to do something I have been doing all my life....quite successfully.

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

Hello there BBJ: There is a similar poll over on AR in the American Hunting section about what people will be packing this year. No fear of magnums over there (although I suspect the percentage of folks over there that have actually killed an elk is quite a bit higher). I have lumped the WSMs in with the same caliber. The results:

270 Win -2
280 Rem
7mm Rem
308
30-06 -2
300 Win -5
300 Wby
30-378 Wby
325 WSM
338-06
338 WM -6
340 Wby -2
338-378 Wby
35 Whelen
358 STA
9.3x62
9.3x74
375 H&H -2
376 Steyr
405 Win
458 Lott

No discussion about folks using too much gun or that it "a bigger gun isn't needed". Just a bunch of filled tags last year...

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

I wouldn't say anything over 243 win is over kill for Deer. Is it under kill for Elk?
I use 308 win, 06 and 7 Rem Mag. Covers the terrain and the game I'm after fairly well.
I have friends that use the 243 on deer here in California.
I prefer the 06.

T

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

I don't need a magnum for elk, and i prefer something bigger than a .243 for deer...

DM

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

My preference is a 30-06, if someone else wants to use a magnum then what do I care? Why does it matter what everyone else thinks?
For your edification I do use a .243 for deer.......but I use a 30-06 for them too......once again it's just preference, it's not like you have to do what I do.

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

I don't need a magnum for elk either, which is why I chose the .375 Ruger. The 375 Ruger has morevelocity, thus more energy and penetration than the 375 H&H "MAGNUM". Ballistically, the 375 H&H MAGNUM is inferior to the 375 Ruger (not a magnum). If I was sensitive about yourassumptions of "MAGNUMS", I would have to exchange my .416 Remington MAGNUM for the .416 Rigby, which has superior capabilities and is not the MAGNUM you decry. DM, you seem to imply MAGNUM cartridges have superior ballistics to non-magnum counterparts, which is not true (see examples above). Your generic assertations aboutMAGNUMS insinuate a 22 Win Magnum rimfire is overkill for elk due to nomenclature rather than the obvious underlying deficiency in ballistics and violation of law (at least in Colorado).

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

I think it has more to do with the threads "talking down" to the non-elk-hammer shooters from right out of the gate so the "hammerless" folks got a little miffed about it.



Iknow it probably wasn't meant to be that way but read the opening posts on each thread and it sure comes across that way, at least the last two threads.

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

I use a .243 for deer and am confident it is entirely adequate. I also use a .25-06, which is more than is needed, particularly as I hunt deer in Oklahoma where the deer are pretty small. Ditto for pronghorn.

I have no beef with people using magnums for elk. I haven't hunted elk often and used the .30-06 that I already had. I would kind of like to have a .338 Winchester Magnum for hunting elk, because I'm thinking it is more optimally sized for elk . . . but at least partly, also, because I would just like to have one.

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

[blockquote]BB,

Both were a call to those who play their elk game a certain way and provided an arena for both to express themselves.

One thing for sure, if you don't qualify your thread up front you end up with a cluster*uck with everyone dropping in their cute cliches like you haven't addressed them already.

Hence:
I know there are many out there with poor recoil management that believe that it is not possible. Au contrare! There are plenty of folks that know how to consistently lob the big boys right in there with devastating effect.

Just an example of one of many.... of course, now address that sort of stuff up front and folks get huffy, not so on the "other side" when the source is a pundit.



[/blockquote]

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

Oh contraire dear sir,We all know if you take only BROADSIDE shots,NOTHNG OVER 100 Yard SHOTS,and STANDING. the .243 is MORE THAN ENOUGH!!!
BBJ

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

My sentiments exactly..

But I think this goes beyond magnums. More is always better and in this case more is realistically more ethical but not always necessary.

This is a forum with all the forum quirks, I just shake my head when I read posts thatderide the 30/06 or 270 and yet turn around and extol the virtues of the 280 as a far superior cartridge.. Its not necessarily a magnum thing, but a cartridge cult where people place themselves in ‘cartridge camps’ and defend those idealistic ‘cartridges’ with "talking down" other common cartridges that are virtually identical in performance....

Personally I use a 270 and with my hunting group I have seen success and failures with both the 270 and 338 Win Mag on elk. All of the failures were bad shot placement with both calibers and I saw no leading trend that indicated one cartridge was superior over the other when the shot placement was not ideal. I am not a guide and a DIY hunter and my experience is limited since I work full time. I agree that more is better and more is ethical, but still the evidence that I have either experienced or seen with my eyes was not all that compelling.

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

I was once told that the 7MM Rem Mag was not enough gun for elk!!!

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

I use my .243 for deer for the most part, but in some situations I prefer my 300 win mag. and here's why. We hunt in some places were you don't want a deer to go 100yards to die, you want to anchor it on the spot, and a large magnum does this with little meat damage if the shot is placed well. These areas include steep canyon land where a wounded flopping deer can go from a canyon rim of 3500 feet to a canyon floor of 1000 feet in seconds, or thick heavy timber and brush country were tracking a wounded animal can be difficult.

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

You know, i've shot a lot of varried big game over the last 50 years... more than most folks will in there life... I don't need to "imply" or "insinuate" anything in my answers, i have no problem writeing exactly what i mean. Also, i don't play "word games" here either, and i'm sure 99.99% of the readers here have no problem understanding what isaidin my post.

DM

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

I don't need a magnum for elk, but I prefer to use one. Big deal. Everyone should use what they want! I will use a mag as long as I can afford the rounds! LOL

What kills me is the fact that everytime we have a "discussion" about magnums, peoples panties get all twisted and they sound like a bunch of girls! (I might add, I have been guilty of this myself!):D

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

Better you saying that than me!

It's true.

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

.308 Winchester is my all-around, except that this year I'll be using 12-gaugeslugs for deer as well.

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

I started this tread as more of a tounge and cheek kinda thing,I was aiming at getting the hackles up of those who insist that we magnum guys use to much gun,can't shoot accuratly and plain are just wasting powder.
I was hoping more of you would be on me for not using ENOUGH gun for deer.I was also aiming at the crowd who says only broadside shots are the only shots.
I know in a perfect world we all use 243's and our shots are never over 100 yds and everything is broadside and die at the shot.

For those of us who know a perfect world dose not happen we choose a tool to get the job done on the worst days.

I'am not a scientist or even a very good speller(sp) but I do know a a well constructed bullet traveling at moderate speeds are good,but a BIGGER better constructed bullet traveling at FASTER speeds is even better.

I also know that a bullet that has spent all its energy through a animal and in to the far country side is great,not only have I pushed through the animal and had plenty of left over I will have a very dead animal at no matter what angle.
To me that gives peace of mind that when the time comes I don't have to worry about my equipment but only my shooting.If things can and will go wrong that only leaves me to blame,not the gun,not the scope not the binoculars or any othe piece of equipment I use.

For those that have killed elk,and doit on a seasonal basis(year after year) have traded their 270's,308's,30-06's (not that they didnt do their job) for 7mm Mags,300 Mags,338 Mags,375's and bigger.Cause maybe we have found ones that do it better.

Eveloution is always going to be a constant,if not we would all still be chucking spears and throwing rocks.

For me the 25-06 is good 30-06 is better,the .300 Win Mag is great and anything over that is PERFECT.

Thanks for your time and being part of my little experiment(sp)
BBJ

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

Bareback,

Yeah, I figured you were trolling. I personally don't have an issue if someone feels they must use a "magnum" on elk. But, I DO have an issue when that "magnum" community thinks it can look down their noses at those of us who choose to use standard calibers instead. I think bigbulls just about nailed it.

My personal experience hasn't shownmy .375 or .300 Wby Mag to kill elk any deader thanmy .30-06 does. I may still use them on occasion, but for general conditions, I simply prefer the .30-06. And for deer, I've killed far more of them with a .243 than I have even the .30-06. No, regardless of the conditions, I don't think either of my magnums will ever find themselves pointed at a deer. But that's just me. You do what you feel you need to do. If you'll give us the latitude to trust our judgement and marksmanship, I'll bet that most ofthe "populists" and "recoil sensitive" people will let you believe whatever you feel you need to about your magnum.

"I was aiming at getting the hackles up of those who insist that we magnum guys use to much gun,can't shoot accuratly and plain are just wasting powder."

And just what do you think you're going to accomplish by doing that? Of ALL the idiotic arguments to attempt to divide hunters over. Shame on you.

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

HB,
It's working isn't it?
I just think its funny that someone wouldwould useoradvocate the use of the bigger is better mentality on deer sized game but when it comes to elk,they sit in dark cornner of their house in their underwaer clutching their precious standard rifles,and attack anyone who uses or advocates the big guns.
Yes I may be a troll these last few days,but most pepole won't show true feelings until they are pushed into madness.

BBJ

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

Well, at least you haven't lost your sense of humor! If you're having visions of armed people in their underwear, we might want to get you a referral to someone, though? ;)

I'm not too familiar with folks here going "bigger" on deer, then saying "smaller" on elk. I've often been on the receiving end of a bashing though when I say things like, "a .243 is a great deer cartridge." Or, "a .30-06 will take any game on the continent." No, I'm not glued to either one of them. Yes, I own both. I'll often use a .30-06 for deer. I sometimes carry a .375 for elk. Just depends. Some days I just take a camera (oh geez, now I'm in for it).

Sometimes I just wish we could focus on something besides judging each other based on"gear."

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

I have nothing against anyone who likes to shoot a Magnum rifle as long as they stay off of my six about not using one.;) I would be happy to use a 270,280,308, 30-06 or 45-70 for all Lower 48 big game. You can add The 44 Mag revolver, 35 Remington Contender and 50 Cal Muzzle loader to the list as well. I know all of these work. I have used them all for lower 48 big game. I have also used the 7MM and 300. Mags.

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

An elk is about three times as heavy as a deer,so if the 30-06 is adequate for elk,it is obviously overkill for deer.

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

.30-06 for Whitetail deer for years and on occasion .243.
.300 WM for a 300 yd shot at a mature Elk has been to ticket more than once for me.
I make no apologies.
I think people who like to be minimalists are more about stroking their own egos more than anything. So, they say, "I only needed a bah bah bah... to shoot my Elk, deer, bear, etc."
I say let them do as they want, as long as it's legal and ethical. I believe in doing what it takes to make it an ethical hunt, minimize the chance of a wounded, not found animal, without blowing the crap out of it.
These are the tools that work for me. If someone doesn't like it, too bad. That's your problem. Don't waste your and mine time with your self-righteous rants based upon your own biases.

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

I spent about 3 months trying to decide on the rifle to buy that would work for primarily deer, and the occasional elk and occasional pronghorn. I ended up deciding on my Browning A-Bolt Stainless Stalker in 7mm Rem Mag as my one all around rifle. So far after taking 2 deer, a pronghorn and an elk I have been very happy with it's performance. I think that by sticking with one gun I will be more comfortable and accurate with it. If I had an elk rifle I would probably go with a .300 Win Mag or maybe give in to peer pressure and buy a .300 WSM but for now I think my 7mm Rem Mag will continue to serve as my all around gun. Sure it is a little overkill on whitetail deer and antelope, but I can live with that. I think with the right bullet choice it is perfectly fine for elk and the elk that I shot this year agreed. ;)

My friends son has a .338 magnum that he uses for elk hunting and he shot 5 times at an elk with it and hit it once in the guts and knocked off one side of his antler and missed the other 3 times at 150 yards. Of course I think that is more from him getting exciting than the caliber of the gun he was shooting! :D

I think there are folks on both sides of this arguement that like to stroke their own egos. Folks who like to brag about the "hammers" they are using, and folks that like to brag that they shoot so well that a .270 is all they will ever need to kill an elk. I think the majority of folks are somewhere in the middle.

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

I get sucked in to this debate more than is probably healthy. My "problem" with Big Caliber Guys is that the ones I know are way way more likely to wound stuff because they use their Big Gun as a ticket to take shots they just shouldn't take. I believe a lot of these guys have a testosterone-induced need to fill their tags, so they have never seen a shot they wouldn't take.

Early in their career they start with a .270, gut shot or break the leg of 10 elk with stupid shots and decide it's the rifle's fault. So they buy a 30/06, go and wound 10 more elk with equally stupid shots, decide it's the rifles fault again, and go buy a .300 Win Mag. This process goes on and on to .300 Ultras and .338s and I'm sure we'll be seeing a .338 Ultra Mag on the market soon!

If bow hunters can discipline themselves to only take shots within the very limited capacity of their weapon, then surely a guy can use a .270 responsibly for elk, or a .243 for deer. It's all a matter of self-discipline. Without it, you will wound game consistently. Period.

My two cents worth, again!

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

I'm weighing in a big late on this topic, but it's been fun reading what everyone else shoots. Over the years, I've gone back and forth between heavy and light. I've shot game as large as Alaska-Yukon Moose and Zebra with a .270 shooting 150 grain bullets, and game as small as Blacktail Deer, Pronghorns and a Klipspringer with a .338 Win Mag. The smallest caliber I've ever shot any game other than varmints, is with a .25-06, and the biggest caliber is a .470 Nitro Express. After many years and many animals, sometimes shooting big guns and sometimes shooting small guns, I now mostly just shoot 2 rifles for 90% of the time I hunt big game. If I'm not using my .338 Win Mag, I'm shooting a .264 Win Mag. I shoot 225 grain bullets in my .338, triple shocks at this point, though I love Noslers and Trophy Bonded Bullets. In the .264, I've shot 140 grain Core Lokts for years, but am now trying some 125 & 130 grain bullets,Noslers and Triple Shocks,and like them a lot. I've got a few other rifles I'm playing with a little bit these days, including a .243 and .300 Rem Ultra Mag, but when out in the field hunting, I'm usually carrying either the .338 or .264.

I'm not much ofa believer in too much gun. Dead is dead, and big guns do that very, very well if you can shoot them well.

Of course, I carry a bow more often thana rifle these days.

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

For me it comes down to the fact that I was only able to buy 1 gun. I wanted something that I could hunt deer, hogs, elk, pronghorn with. So...a Tikka T3 Lite in .270 WSM crossed my path at the right time and I bought it. Ideally I would have got a 30.06 but the timing was right and I was in the right place and right time to trade a 9mm handgun straight up for this nearly new rifle.

So....be it a 100 lb whitetail doe or a monster bull elk.........I'll be using a .270 WSM.

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

Sangster, nothing at all wrong with any .270 caliber cartridge. You'll do well with that cartridge, and that Tikka is a wonderful rifle. I don't own a Tikka, but my son bought a T3 in .223 caliber, and I'm very impressed with that rifle.

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

I have never had a deer or elk complain that I used to big of a gun to kill them

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

I know it is where you hit them at that matters most but the shock value of a heavier hitting bullet that can penetrate bone and just about anything on the animal at just about any distance is a certified and bonified PLUS. That's why I hunt with either a 7mm Rem Mag or a 30.06 because there is no such thing as over kill. Before I pull the trigger ask yourself one question Do you feel lucky, do ya, punk.. [8D]:D

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

Dirt2,
The problem you described is NOT a magnum problem. As you said they started out with a less powerful rifle and failed to do their range work, research on bullet drop and effects of other factors that affect accuracy. If they were poor hunters and poor marksmen with .270, .30-06 and .338 calibers all,the common thread is that they are poor hunter and poor marksmen poor hunter and poor marksmen.
Which rifle they shoot is not the problem.
Better find some different friends or acquaintances.

RE: Why are the Magnum elk hunters the bad guys???
 

I regularly kill deer with a .22 hornet, and a bow, If I had a chance at elk or moose I could do it with it as well, but I think I would use my .243. :D

Did any body see roger raglin kill some big ass cow looking thing, he shot it about 5 times with a big big gun. hell my friends mom put a 2000lb bull down with 1 shot from her 6mm. The damn thing was destroying there farm, so she killed it, it was the neigbors that got out and went on a rampage on her property.