jjt

Ive got to agree with AceHand on this one john being a great shot is admireable
but there are only a few places where it is useful in hunting and on a nation wide level you will get a lot of people who could never imagine taking a shot that far or why you would need to so they are going to call it unethical or poor hunting etc

John B 45

Thanks for all the input, guys. I will try and answer some of the questions asked.

Elkampmaster,

I think my NASCAR analogy is right on the mark. The question is do we show something on television that pushes the edge of the envelope? People do try and emulate the things they see at the racetrack. The world and our road system would be safer if we never showed car racing on television but at what cost to our freedoms. Do we let the lowest common denominator control what we do and say for fear of someone doing something stupid?

No magic in the shooting we do. If you have access to a good place to shoot (Pawnee Grasslands comes to mind) set up a 500yds-800yds target. Zero your rifle on the target just like you would at 200yds or what ever range you normally zero. Now put a 12” plate up and see how hard it is to hit under good conditions. Next imagine you have data for any range from 25yds to 2000 yds and know exactly how to adjust your scope for the exact range you will be shooting at. We never fire a shot with out the knowing where the bullet will strike. We are human and make mistakes but I sleep well at night knowing I have done all I can to eliminate the human error.

gleninAZ,

Wow, you have been saving that up for a while. Feel better now? At least I now have a new technique to use for filming if the fishing is slow. Us TV Hosts (we are all the same you know) need all the tricks we can come up with, what with not being able to actually do anything in the field.

121553,

On my Wyoming elk hunt this year Jack P (the shows producer, camera man, editor) and I rode personally owned horses (Jack P owns them) 8 miles to our camp. When I say our camp I mean everything in the camp we own, packed in ourselves, and set up ourselves. I never have hunted out of a lodge in my life but now that I am a Lowlife TV Hunting Show Host I am hoping my fortunes will change. Next day we left 2 hours before light and rode another 6 miles to the head of Last Creek. I shot my bull at 580yds(one shot kill) because there was no way to get any closer. It took over an hour to ride around the head of the drainage to the elk. We quartered him up and loaded him on the horses. Then we walked the 6 miles back to camp. Most of the hike was below 11,000 ft but not all of it. We got back to camp way before 10:00 AM the next day. This was the fourth bull we packed out of that camp this year.

Yes we do edit out any bad shots and we have made a few, very few, bad shots. All hunting shows do edit out mistakes. Anyone who says they have never had a bad shot simply has not hunted much or has the dreaded Selective Memory Disease (SMD). If we had to edit much footage out it would raise the cost of footage, so beyond the ethical issue it just plain costs too much money to miss. We miss very rarely.

Some of you guys seem to think no one will shoot past their abilities because they have never seen long range shooting before. I would say if less experienced hunters are shown what goes into a 600 yd shot they will be much less likely to just hold high and cut one lose and maybe learn what they and their equipment are capable of, and when to shoot and more importantly when to wait for another day.

Thanks again and I hope more of you will say what you think

John

rather_be_huntin

I think what it boils down to is ethics. I think if someone is making clean ethical kill shots thats all that matters. My personal limit with a rifle is about 400yds, maybe 500 if conditions are prefect and I have a great rest. Does that mean I should impose my personal limit on everyone else, in my mind no. Some have said you' re not a hunter if you can' t get closer. Based on that logic we are saying the only " real" hunters are bowhunters cause they get the closest. I disagree with that logic. I completely agree with the NASCAR logic. If someone has that talent doesn' t mean I' m going to try and drive my car at 180 mph on the freeway. I think the show should just point out that they are expert rifleman and that they have expensive equipment. That way the average Joe knows those kind of shots are not feasable nor ethical for him.

gleninAZ

Hey John. Thanks for mentioning me. I really feel bad now and promise to tape your show so I can learn more about hunting. I have two more personal experiences with famous TV hosts who weren' t much in the reality area so I guess I am a bit jaded. I meant it when I said good luck and I never implied you were doing anything unethical. I just don' t see 800 yard trick shots doing much to teach hunting skills but maybe your show will devote stalking skills time as well. Good luck.

Tim Buma

If I had to vote on it I' d say leave it alone.
I' m a fan of getting up close and personal.
Why do you need a live target at that range?
Most places I' ve hunted, you' d have a helluva job finding your animal by the time you made your way over the range to find him.
However well done if you can hit a 6 inch target at that range.

CalNewbie

John,
I have this pet phrase that I have to tell myself every once in a while - don' t ask a question if you don' t want to hear the answer. You asked what the thoughts were on this and invited feedback. You' ve got it. Accept the fact that most of the feedback so far is against the idea.

In all fairness, you state that you will run " some" of the footage you have of long range shots. From your initial description it doesn' t sound like the whole show is going to focus on that aspect. Perhaps you can take the feedback to heart and ensure that your show includes advice to the viewer. Help the uneducated understand it takes practice and that you can' t just plop down in front of a high powered rifle and start picking off game at 800 yards.

The show' s title is " Best of the West" , so I' ll guess that it' ll focus on the more unique hunts rather than the mundane. But if it focuses on the shots I' m not likely to take, situations I' m not likely to find myself in, and lacks educational content, I' m unlikely to tune in. I' m not saying your show will do those things, or will lack that content. I don' t have sufficient information to make that call.

As for relatively inexperienced shooters making 500 yard shots, even with coaching and setup, I feel that this is an irresponsible thing to encourage. As a relatively inexperienced shooter, new to the sport and tradition, I don' t think that I could be consistent and reliable at that range at this point in my learning. I think it takes practice, practice, and more practice to achieve that. I recently watched an elk hunt video, a guided hunt, the hunter was shooting a 270 Weatherby maggnum. The guy was prone, with bipods, medium range (think it was 250-300 yards). It took four shots, the first was clearly in the gut, only the last one was in the heart lung area. Yes, I can memorize tables, but a flinch when anticipating recoil, the heart beating fast becuase I' m excited, the dread of missing and maybe going home empty-handed. Some or all of this may arise, cause a pause, a twitch, a flinch, that at 500+ yards gets magnified to an inhumane shot and an unclean kill, or maybe the elk runs off and dies and I can' t find it.

Sorry, but I don' t think that its right to be taking shots in the excitement of the hunt that you can' t consitently demonstrate in the calm of the range. I have a picture of the host telling us how this hunter is a relative newcomer, but we' ve given him a crash course and now he' s making a 500 yard kill. I' m not going to tell anyone how to hunt, I don' t have the right or the experience. Footage about long range shooting is just that, about shooting, not about hunting.

elknut1

CalNewbie

That was a calm well thought out post, with excellent reasoning. Good job.

elknut1

121553

VERY WELL thought out Calnewbie and also very TRUE.
John you are right, if you hunt for any length of time, your going to have a higher percentage of wounds. I have been bowhunting since 69' and I have lost an animal or two, and its like someone hit me in the stomach as hard as they could, NOT a good feeling at all. I, as a " hunter," owe it to the animal I am harvesting to take it down as quik and humanely as possible,( they call this respect) and in doing so, I try to elliminate error by useing my stalking skill getting as close as I can. I see the results every season from these weekend warriors who come into the woods inexperinced brandishing a new fire arm with not even a box of ammunition rung through it, and they think there is no limits to there ability and in doing so I see the animals with a shoulder shot off or maybe even a calf/fawn or cub thats now motherless because someone didn' t see the mother or just didn' t care. I don' t think promoteing a sport in shooting animals at 1000+ yds is something we don' t need to be showing and encourageing. Even at your skill level there are so many variables that may go wrong at this distance, even things thats not in your control, what about wind, and the animal moveing after the shot has been fired?

I admire your ability to make such shots and there are just a handful of shooters out in the world that can make such a shot, but I think it needs to stay on the shooting range.( of course we could use your skills over in Iraq I' m sure.)

respectfull, Bobby

* NRA member
* Montana Bowhunters Association
* Montana Bowhunting instructor
* North American Hunting Club
* Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation member
* Tobacco Valley Rod and Gun Club
* Buckmasters

sr.corndog

John B 45
I guess on your side of the USA you have to make those long shots. But I had rather watch my deer flinch or blink his eye and wonder if my sent is covered instead of drinking coffee and have a smoke and make a 300 plus yard shot.
Problem is when you make that kill how long does it take you to get to your meat and is it stiff or still warm? I will watch your show but would rather learn technique instead of watching you shoot.

What gun do you use?

txhunter58

I smell a rat. Notice no mention of the " when" or on " what channel" this will run. I will believe it is not a hoax when I see the show. John B: surely you have a website that tells about your show/program? No? Hmmmm. What is your name and business phone number? No sense in witholding that info since it will come out in the show. Not willing to provide that info? Hmmmm.

Why no mention that to even attempt these shots, you MUST have a gun that shoots less than 1/2 MOA, somthing that most of us won' t ever have. Yes, all of us could with unlimited time and money, but most of us won' t. Even a 1 MOA gun (better than most of us will ever have) will have an 8 inch group at 800 yards. Granted that is only 4 inches from the bull, but add wind, elevation change, and " buck fever" and 99 out of 100 people should never take the shot.

However, I will ignore the probability that this is a bogus post, and just answer the question:

I believe that such a program is bad for hunting and does not promote ehtical take of an animal.

If you are capable and want to take such shots, I have no problem, but to encourage others to do the same is poor judgement in my book.

Respectfully yours,

Txhunter58