Are bigger cartridges really better?
08-09-2008, 06:49 AM
#41
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: WY
Posts: 2,056
RE: Are bigger cartridges really better?
When I was a kid, I wanted to be the first on my block to have a .338 magnum, just because the biggest, coolest gun any of my friends owned up to that point was a 7mm magnum. There really wasn't any need for it otherwise, except for "show-off" value.
Early 20s I moved to AK. DM - your post is spot on. Just had to get a .375 H&H and .44 Mag pistol for those forays up to the Deshka or the Susitnas, or backpacking the Kenai. "For bears", I told myself.But I rarely ran into bears, and even those i did encounter seemed relatively uninterested in me - and I doubt it was because they had the clarity to recognize a M700 Safari Grade when they saw one.
Somewhere along the line I also decided I didn't need to impress the girls anymore, either. Found myself driving a 6-cylinder, full-size pickup with vinyl seats and no A/C or power windows. Yet, it would haul me and my stuff all over the place and I could focus on hunting and fishing, instead of what other people thought.
My Safari Grade's a fine example and owns a permanent spot in the safe. I have a synthetic-stocked Weatherby Vanguard that I beat the crap out of hunting elk sometimes (it's like a Timex) - which just HAPPENS to be chambered for .300 Wby Mag, though I'd much prefer it have been a .30-06. Wal-Mart had sold out of those (?)and all they had left was this one. Oh well.
I hunt coyotes, prairie dogs, turkey, pheasants, pronghorn, deer, and elk these days. There are only so many slots in my safe that I'd call "convenientily up front" and they're occupied by: a 12 ga O/U, a .22-250 Varmint rifle, my .30-06, and my .243. Behind them are .22s, some .223s, more 12 gauges. my wife's and daughter's shotguns and rifles, and my military/LE stuff. On the back wall are ..... the twomagnums. It takes a couple minutes to uncover them because I RARELY use them anymore. Why?
Now that I'm notworried about how big everyone else's Johnson is - likeI was back in high school -I find that it's how well you shoot and not what you shoot that matters the most. Make my go-to deer/elk rifle a .30-06.
Early 20s I moved to AK. DM - your post is spot on. Just had to get a .375 H&H and .44 Mag pistol for those forays up to the Deshka or the Susitnas, or backpacking the Kenai. "For bears", I told myself.But I rarely ran into bears, and even those i did encounter seemed relatively uninterested in me - and I doubt it was because they had the clarity to recognize a M700 Safari Grade when they saw one.
Somewhere along the line I also decided I didn't need to impress the girls anymore, either. Found myself driving a 6-cylinder, full-size pickup with vinyl seats and no A/C or power windows. Yet, it would haul me and my stuff all over the place and I could focus on hunting and fishing, instead of what other people thought.
My Safari Grade's a fine example and owns a permanent spot in the safe. I have a synthetic-stocked Weatherby Vanguard that I beat the crap out of hunting elk sometimes (it's like a Timex) - which just HAPPENS to be chambered for .300 Wby Mag, though I'd much prefer it have been a .30-06. Wal-Mart had sold out of those (?)and all they had left was this one. Oh well.
I hunt coyotes, prairie dogs, turkey, pheasants, pronghorn, deer, and elk these days. There are only so many slots in my safe that I'd call "convenientily up front" and they're occupied by: a 12 ga O/U, a .22-250 Varmint rifle, my .30-06, and my .243. Behind them are .22s, some .223s, more 12 gauges. my wife's and daughter's shotguns and rifles, and my military/LE stuff. On the back wall are ..... the twomagnums. It takes a couple minutes to uncover them because I RARELY use them anymore. Why?
Now that I'm notworried about how big everyone else's Johnson is - likeI was back in high school -I find that it's how well you shoot and not what you shoot that matters the most. Make my go-to deer/elk rifle a .30-06.
08-09-2008, 10:33 AM
#42
Typical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 599
RE: Are bigger cartridges really better?
Homer-Back-Home,
Being a formerAK stud and all; how did your great bearexperience go?
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BTW, 30-06 good choice for deer and elk.
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Johnsons? Johnsons? Where did that enter into the discussion from?
Degraded?
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Original Topic: Are bigger cartridges really better?
Probably, or we would all be hunting big game with 22LR's.
Being a formerAK stud and all; how did your great bearexperience go?
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BTW, 30-06 good choice for deer and elk.
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"....Somewhere along the line I also decided I didn't need to impress the girls anymore,
"....Now that I'm notworried about how big everyone else's Johnson is...."
Degraded?
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Original Topic: Are bigger cartridges really better?
Probably, or we would all be hunting big game with 22LR's.
08-10-2008, 10:33 PM
#43
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: WY
Posts: 2,056
RE: Are bigger cartridges really better?
EKM,
I'll deferyour "stud" comment regarding Alaska to those who actuallylive up there permanently.
As to "degraded", I think I'll let you think about that one.
I'm not sure I understand what you're attempting toachieve byintroducing the ".22LR" argument? I'm sure you can think of manyspecies where a smaller caliber is in fact, better. And, I'm sure I can think of many species where a larger caliber is in fact, better.
But I think I'll borrow a line from your signature: "Learn from the mistakes of others". How about one regarding THIS topic (I certainly have more and am more than happy to share if it might save someone else the trouble):
If you want to buy a magnum, make certain it's for the right reason. I can't honestly say that I NEEDED that .375 for bears. I'd easily have gotten by with my .30-06 for as many chargingbears as I needed to stop (like, none). The money and timeI spent reading up on big bears and talking to experienced locals was WAY better spent. But hey, thatIS one long beast of a cartridge, isn't it? And that's probably the biggest reason I just HAD to have it.
Now, if your experience has been different, by all means post it. After all, it's just an opinion and the reader is left to decide which argument(s) is/are the most credible. And in the end, their choice is of no consequence to either of us - we'll continue whatever it was we were doing before.
I'll deferyour "stud" comment regarding Alaska to those who actuallylive up there permanently.
As to "degraded", I think I'll let you think about that one.
I'm not sure I understand what you're attempting toachieve byintroducing the ".22LR" argument? I'm sure you can think of manyspecies where a smaller caliber is in fact, better. And, I'm sure I can think of many species where a larger caliber is in fact, better.
But I think I'll borrow a line from your signature: "Learn from the mistakes of others". How about one regarding THIS topic (I certainly have more and am more than happy to share if it might save someone else the trouble):
If you want to buy a magnum, make certain it's for the right reason. I can't honestly say that I NEEDED that .375 for bears. I'd easily have gotten by with my .30-06 for as many chargingbears as I needed to stop (like, none). The money and timeI spent reading up on big bears and talking to experienced locals was WAY better spent. But hey, thatIS one long beast of a cartridge, isn't it? And that's probably the biggest reason I just HAD to have it.
Now, if your experience has been different, by all means post it. After all, it's just an opinion and the reader is left to decide which argument(s) is/are the most credible. And in the end, their choice is of no consequence to either of us - we'll continue whatever it was we were doing before.
08-12-2008, 06:06 PM
#44
Typical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 599
RE: Are bigger cartridges really better?
quote:
ORIGINAL: salukipv1
I read an interesting article recently on the subject of the magnums for elk, moose, and other big game.
It pointed out a good fact, that sure any cartridge can take just about anything if the bullet is placed in the right spot at the right angle.
So certainly a .25-06 on a elk broadside will get the job done, but the point the writer made was on the less than desireable shot, the 1/4 away, etc.....when that bullet has to go through more hide, bone etc...to get to the vitals is when the .300 win mags, or .338 mags, will do a better job than say a .25-06.And an animal doesn't always cooperate, so knowing this, may mean being unable to take a ethical shot with a .25-06 vs a .300 mag.
Valid point I thought.
Good post. I agree, but a lot of guys think even a 300 win mag is too light of a caliber to hunt grizzly with.
ORIGINAL: salukipv1
I read an interesting article recently on the subject of the magnums for elk, moose, and other big game.
It pointed out a good fact, that sure any cartridge can take just about anything if the bullet is placed in the right spot at the right angle.
So certainly a .25-06 on a elk broadside will get the job done, but the point the writer made was on the less than desireable shot, the 1/4 away, etc.....when that bullet has to go through more hide, bone etc...to get to the vitals is when the .300 win mags, or .338 mags, will do a better job than say a .25-06.And an animal doesn't always cooperate, so knowing this, may mean being unable to take a ethical shot with a .25-06 vs a .300 mag.
Valid point I thought.
Good post. I agree, but a lot of guys think even a 300 win mag is too light of a caliber to hunt grizzly with.
Of course if you don't like what you hear, then you can always keep calling until you find one that give the "right" answer.... kind of like these forums.
08-12-2008, 08:34 PM
#45
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 411
RE: Are bigger cartridges really better?
ORIGINAL: ColoradoElk
Phil is holding the 458 and the Rigby.
The article referenced was written by Phil.
Also, based on review of his article, please provide the link to substantiate your statement:
An Alaskan guide named Shoemaker uses an '06 with 200 or 220 gr. bullets on the big bears. He says it works as well as anything.
I think you made that up.
ORIGINAL: 270 bdl
ColoraoElk, read some aticles written by Mr. Shoemaker and also John Barsness.
ColoraoElk, read some aticles written by Mr. Shoemaker and also John Barsness.
Phil is holding the 458 and the Rigby.
The article referenced was written by Phil.
Also, based on review of his article, please provide the link to substantiate your statement:
An Alaskan guide named Shoemaker uses an '06 with 200 or 220 gr. bullets on the big bears. He says it works as well as anything.
I think you made that up.
08-17-2008, 12:10 AM
#47
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 13
RE: Are bigger cartridges really better?
My grandpa farmed a homestead in Alaska near Palmer in the 1940'sand killed every big game animalhe ever killed therewith a .270. I now have hunted with a .270 for most of my life and killed all of my big game with it and never had a problem. I never hunted grizzly so I cannot recount any grizzly prize, but I would use it on one anyways. I have killed Moose and Elk with it my whole life and will continue to do so just as my grandpa did. How many on this forumget the chance to hunt grizzly anyways? If a grizzly charges any of you, most likely your weapon is going to become either a bat while you fight for your life or duff when you drop it to run anyways. Good luck with the whole charging grizzly thing though. I like shooting all calibers but for ABSOLUTELY NEEDING a .30 or bigger for big game I think it's hogwash. If you have a bad shot, don't take it in the first place. If you make a bad shot, well get ready for some work no matter what caliber you are shooting.
08-17-2008, 08:39 AM
#48
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 411
RE: Are bigger cartridges really better?
Hello there Super. It sounds like your family has had some great hunging experiences! Your post is interesting to me in that it appears your have a choice of calibers larger than .270, but select the .270 for your hunting needs. When asked, mosts folks say "Caliber (< 30-06) .XXX is all you need and a larger or forbid, MAGNUM is "overkill". Usually,this is because caliber .XXX is the onlygun they own, so it "must" be adequate. Have you hunted with .30-06 class or larger cartridges for elk, and still choose to carry the .270? I don't own a .270 (or a .30-06 for that matter), but I have a 7x64 that is comparable, that to me is a deer gun. I sure feel better carrying .338+ for elk. What are your experiences with > .270 class cartidges on elk? Thank youfor your time.
08-17-2008, 07:13 PM
#49
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 1,813
RE: Are bigger cartridges really better?
ORIGINAL: EKM
I would recommend calling the guides and following their recommendations..... They arethe ones that have "been there and done that" on an ongoing, "hands on" basis, with a sample size greater than one (or zero).
Of course if you don't like what you hear, then you can always keep calling until you find one that give the "right" answer.... kind of like these forums.
I would recommend calling the guides and following their recommendations..... They arethe ones that have "been there and done that" on an ongoing, "hands on" basis, with a sample size greater than one (or zero).
Of course if you don't like what you hear, then you can always keep calling until you find one that give the "right" answer.... kind of like these forums.
Anyway, i've found that most of the guides don't really know all that much about "bullets"... They know that bigger goes "slower" so it works, so they recomend them. When you start talking about bullet "construction", they kind ofget a blank stare on there face... I had more than one come into my shop and ask me what load/bullet "i" thought would work for them.
Another thing, they don't know what kind of shooter they are going to end up with. Here's an example: I got one guy within 50 yards of a really nice very dark color phase brown bear that from the knee down on all 4 legs was almost white. The bear looked like it had boots on... lol Anyway, we were in HEAVY brush over our heads, and when we got in the open isaid, "take him"! BOOM, and it was over!
I took another guy out, and i got him about 70 yards away from a really nice brown that was uphill and sitting on it's @$$ like a dog does. I told the guy, "shoot it high in the chest, EXACTLY between the front legs"... He stood there stiff as a board, so i repeated, and he just shook his head NO!
So, if you don't know what your getting, you just recomend something bigger! But, i've seen brown bear guides with everything from a 25-06 with 120 NP's, to many with 30-06's, 7 mags, 338 mags on up to 458's. Some had weak bullets loaded in there rifles thati would never use. Like 220's in a 300 mag... Now, that's a POS... I wouldn't even use them in a 30-06! Or 400 Speers in a .458!
Lastly, if you think posters should talk from experience, i have to ask. How many brown bears have YOU harvested? More than me?
DM
08-17-2008, 09:59 PM
#50
Typical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 599
RE: Are bigger cartridges really better?
Yep, 25 years in the Alaskan bush and actually taking the bears does get you "AK stud" status IMO, so you are "in."
Having been inAlaska for a season with a classic rifle and never used it for what it isintended for and then assessing how effective it was, well, not so much.
Though we aren't from the same school I've always had to guard my replies to you insofar, hey this guy has been there and done that. Called you on one when you seemingly contradicted yourself first talking one way and then talking the other within the same post.
There a few guys on this forum that I also respect like bigcountry who seem down on your case, and I am not sure why. You always have good stuff and have been there and done it. No crime in delivering a message bluntly if it is the facts.
Having been inAlaska for a season with a classic rifle and never used it for what it isintended for and then assessing how effective it was, well, not so much.
Though we aren't from the same school I've always had to guard my replies to you insofar, hey this guy has been there and done that. Called you on one when you seemingly contradicted yourself first talking one way and then talking the other within the same post.
There a few guys on this forum that I also respect like bigcountry who seem down on your case, and I am not sure why. You always have good stuff and have been there and done it. No crime in delivering a message bluntly if it is the facts.