Idaho elk gone......
04-22-2008, 05:26 PM
#11
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Washington State
Posts: 202
RE: Idaho elk gone......
I saw population stats in Bugle mag last year that put Idaho's herd approximately 125,000 head. Hard to believe that 700 wolves could do that kind of damage that this story claims. While I don't think wolves should be shot out of exsistence again, I do think that they should be managed like any other game animal... they need to be scared and watching their back trail just like the elk are.
04-22-2008, 07:59 PM
#12
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Great Falls, Mt.
Posts: 229
RE: Idaho elk gone......
A scared wolf is still a killer, never too scared to eat. Or kill just for the hell of it. Pretty soon, people are gonna start putting bullets through the wolves guts and walking away. Let them run off and die. (Not that I condone that stuff, Im just saying its gonna happen if it isnt already. I know alot of ranchers that would do it, given the chance.) And Im not sure how wrong that would be anymore.
04-22-2008, 08:16 PM
#13
Typical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 599
RE: Idaho elk gone......
Millagerobert,
I'm with ya on this one....
Back in 2003 when the wolf issue came up on these forums, I didn't pu55y foot around the issue and called it the way I saw it.... that our forefathers had the right idea for the right reasons and had done a right fine job of taking care of the wolf problem only to have it un-done by the do-gooders. The old rancher up at Hinton, Alberta has to still be musing the words of warning that he gave the the USFW folks that were busy in his locale trapping the "seed stock" (spawn-of-hell) that was about to be loosed upon an unsuspecting lower 48....
You would have thought I was Satan himself the way the folks on this forum came after me.... now for the most part, they are all kinda quiet about that now that the decimation is so readilyobvious for all to see, to their credit, many have switched sides on the issue....
Too late though.... It was a master stroke by our hunting rights opponents --- regretfullythe other sideappears to be verysmart, forward looking, politically adept, and well financed.
In the early years, the wolf movement had many proponents amongst hunters. They were hunters, yes, but unfortunately mostly city folk who didn't have a clue as to the ways of farm/ranch life,experience with real-life on the ground predation, or thefragility of cervid populations. Unfortunately, too many were ensonced by the "romance of the wolf" before the obvious unfolded.
SSS and hope.
I'm with ya on this one....
Back in 2003 when the wolf issue came up on these forums, I didn't pu55y foot around the issue and called it the way I saw it.... that our forefathers had the right idea for the right reasons and had done a right fine job of taking care of the wolf problem only to have it un-done by the do-gooders. The old rancher up at Hinton, Alberta has to still be musing the words of warning that he gave the the USFW folks that were busy in his locale trapping the "seed stock" (spawn-of-hell) that was about to be loosed upon an unsuspecting lower 48....
You would have thought I was Satan himself the way the folks on this forum came after me.... now for the most part, they are all kinda quiet about that now that the decimation is so readilyobvious for all to see, to their credit, many have switched sides on the issue....
Too late though.... It was a master stroke by our hunting rights opponents --- regretfullythe other sideappears to be verysmart, forward looking, politically adept, and well financed.
In the early years, the wolf movement had many proponents amongst hunters. They were hunters, yes, but unfortunately mostly city folk who didn't have a clue as to the ways of farm/ranch life,experience with real-life on the ground predation, or thefragility of cervid populations. Unfortunately, too many were ensonced by the "romance of the wolf" before the obvious unfolded.
SSS and hope.
04-23-2008, 08:47 AM
#14
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location:
Posts: 54
RE: Idaho elk gone......
While we live in Boise, we have maintained a home in McCall, which is a small community in the mountains of central Idaho, for the past ten years from which I love to hike and fish in the surrounding mountains. In the past elk were a common sight everywhere I hiked. But no more. I can honestly say that I have not seen one elk in all my hiking the mountain trails in the past three years. I still occcasionally see deer, but no elk.
I grew up in Alberta where the elk have been exposed to wolves forever. Here in Idaho all of a sudden a new intelligent efficient predator is all of a sudden thrust on the elk, elk that for 100 years have had no exposure to this danger. They do not stand a chance.
Since we are into this protecting the species thing, I think we need tore-introduce wolves to all of their natural ranges in the United States- Especially into New York, Vermont, Pennsylvania, Virginia, California, etc. and while we are at it I think we ought to re-introduce Grizzlies as a protected species into all of their native territory which used to cover most of the country as well.
I grew up in Alberta where the elk have been exposed to wolves forever. Here in Idaho all of a sudden a new intelligent efficient predator is all of a sudden thrust on the elk, elk that for 100 years have had no exposure to this danger. They do not stand a chance.
Since we are into this protecting the species thing, I think we need tore-introduce wolves to all of their natural ranges in the United States- Especially into New York, Vermont, Pennsylvania, Virginia, California, etc. and while we are at it I think we ought to re-introduce Grizzlies as a protected species into all of their native territory which used to cover most of the country as well.
04-23-2008, 10:28 AM
#15
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Western Montana
Posts: 96
RE: Idaho elk gone......
In the past 100 years there have never been more elk here in MT than right now. If you don't believe me check the FWP website. What expanding wolf packs will do to that number I don't know. I do know that 20% of the wolf packs in MT are in my county and that there are still plenty of elk here. The fact is, MT FWP doesn't know what to do about so many moreelk in this state, but continued declining success rates among hunters.The biggestproblem here for elk and elk huntersis the sale of ranches, traditional wintering grounds,for ranchettes and land being advertised as "locking up" 1000's of acres of public land (ie - no access).Hunters don'twant to talk about that. Why not? We should have threads galore on this site saying what BS this is. Cabela's Trophy Properties can suck it. Instead, we blame wolves. Wolves kill elk, no argument there. But, the highest numbers of elk in a century? Declining success rates? We can't get to the elk because they winter on Ted Turner's ranch(es) andthey're locked up by outfitters. We need more anti-Ted Turner threads here.
I think bulls are getting more silent here because of all of the bowhunters bugling and getting busted. 30 years ago you had to make a bugle out of a rubber hose or an old casing. Now everyone has a great bugle and most of those people have no idea how to get an elk within bow range without getting busted and the elk have changed their ways.
I think bulls are getting more silent here because of all of the bowhunters bugling and getting busted. 30 years ago you had to make a bugle out of a rubber hose or an old casing. Now everyone has a great bugle and most of those people have no idea how to get an elk within bow range without getting busted and the elk have changed their ways.
04-23-2008, 11:49 AM
#17
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location:
Posts: 54
RE: Idaho elk gone......
One more thing. I have a friend who owns a large ranch just north of Boise. I shoot there often. He told me that he has seen 3 wolves on his ranch this past winter. That means that wolves, planted hundreds of miles away have spread out looking for territory to within 15 miles of Boise.
04-23-2008, 01:32 PM
#18
Typical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: North Central Idaho
Posts: 539
RE: Idaho elk gone......
In the past 100 years there have never been more elk here in MT than right now. If you don't believe me check the FWP website. What expanding wolf packs will do to that number I don't know.
I am with you on the problem of private ground locking out hunters. I work in Real Estate so I see this first hand. Some landowners still allow hunting and proper hunting management. Most however don't. They lock the gates and try and make a private trophy reserve or wildlife sanctuary. What they fail to realize is that hunting by man is an important part of our ecosystem, and has been for 10's of thousands of years. When you remove the predation of man, herds become over populated and mother nature takes action through disease. Our deer population in the clearwater valley took a big hit a few years back do to overpopulation and urban sprall. People built up around town in areas we used to deer hunt, the deer didn't go anywhere, they just enjoyed allot of sanctuary areas to breed and increase in numbers until they became diseased, and almost all were wiped out in the period of about one month by EHD. It was horrible, the deer wandered around in a stupor, bleeding from their mouth, nose, and eyes, before dieing. With the elk, non hunters will say that is even more of a reason to have wolves, to replace human hunters (their hidden agenda??), but with wolves there is not the even managed control you have through sportsmen. Wolves kill out an area, then move to the next, not the more exact herd control you get through hunting. I know our fish and game is working on this problem through landowner programs such as access yes, but many landowners are leary about allowing access due to past problem hunters, or do to private hunting leases and improper trophy management. It is unfortunate, but the problem is going to get worse before it gets better. Also if you have that many elk over the Mountain in MT., don't worry, we have extra wolves and I can assure you they are spreading out and heading your way, and they seem to breed and repopulate areas in no time, especially if there are a bunch of elk to eat.
I am with you on the problem of private ground locking out hunters. I work in Real Estate so I see this first hand. Some landowners still allow hunting and proper hunting management. Most however don't. They lock the gates and try and make a private trophy reserve or wildlife sanctuary. What they fail to realize is that hunting by man is an important part of our ecosystem, and has been for 10's of thousands of years. When you remove the predation of man, herds become over populated and mother nature takes action through disease. Our deer population in the clearwater valley took a big hit a few years back do to overpopulation and urban sprall. People built up around town in areas we used to deer hunt, the deer didn't go anywhere, they just enjoyed allot of sanctuary areas to breed and increase in numbers until they became diseased, and almost all were wiped out in the period of about one month by EHD. It was horrible, the deer wandered around in a stupor, bleeding from their mouth, nose, and eyes, before dieing. With the elk, non hunters will say that is even more of a reason to have wolves, to replace human hunters (their hidden agenda??), but with wolves there is not the even managed control you have through sportsmen. Wolves kill out an area, then move to the next, not the more exact herd control you get through hunting. I know our fish and game is working on this problem through landowner programs such as access yes, but many landowners are leary about allowing access due to past problem hunters, or do to private hunting leases and improper trophy management. It is unfortunate, but the problem is going to get worse before it gets better. Also if you have that many elk over the Mountain in MT., don't worry, we have extra wolves and I can assure you they are spreading out and heading your way, and they seem to breed and repopulate areas in no time, especially if there are a bunch of elk to eat.
04-23-2008, 06:45 PM
#19
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kalispell, MT
Posts: 171
RE: Idaho elk gone......
ORIGINAL: MTMountainMan
In the past 100 years there have never been more elk here in MT than right now. If you don't believe me check the FWP website. What expanding wolf packs will do to that number I don't know. I do know that 20% of the wolf packs in MT are in my county and that there are still plenty of elk here. The fact is, MT FWP doesn't know what to do about so many moreelk in this state, but continued declining success rates among hunters.The biggestproblem here for elk and elk huntersis the sale of ranches, traditional wintering grounds,for ranchettes and land being advertised as "locking up" 1000's of acres of public land (ie - no access).Hunters don'twant to talk about that. Why not? We should have threads galore on this site saying what BS this is. Cabela's Trophy Properties can suck it. Instead, we blame wolves. Wolves kill elk, no argument there. But, the highest numbers of elk in a century? Declining success rates? We can't get to the elk because they winter on Ted Turner's ranch(es) andthey're locked up by outfitters. We need more anti-Ted Turner threads here.
I think bulls are getting more silent here because of all of the bowhunters bugling and getting busted. 30 years ago you had to make a bugle out of a rubber hose or an old casing. Now everyone has a great bugle and most of those people have no idea how to get an elk within bow range without getting busted and the elk have changed their ways.
In the past 100 years there have never been more elk here in MT than right now. If you don't believe me check the FWP website. What expanding wolf packs will do to that number I don't know. I do know that 20% of the wolf packs in MT are in my county and that there are still plenty of elk here. The fact is, MT FWP doesn't know what to do about so many moreelk in this state, but continued declining success rates among hunters.The biggestproblem here for elk and elk huntersis the sale of ranches, traditional wintering grounds,for ranchettes and land being advertised as "locking up" 1000's of acres of public land (ie - no access).Hunters don'twant to talk about that. Why not? We should have threads galore on this site saying what BS this is. Cabela's Trophy Properties can suck it. Instead, we blame wolves. Wolves kill elk, no argument there. But, the highest numbers of elk in a century? Declining success rates? We can't get to the elk because they winter on Ted Turner's ranch(es) andthey're locked up by outfitters. We need more anti-Ted Turner threads here.
I think bulls are getting more silent here because of all of the bowhunters bugling and getting busted. 30 years ago you had to make a bugle out of a rubber hose or an old casing. Now everyone has a great bugle and most of those people have no idea how to get an elk within bow range without getting busted and the elk have changed their ways.
those people worked hard to earn the money to purchase that land...if you dont like it, that is fine, but nothing is stopping you fromseizing the same opportunities that they did...and before anyone starts the "they didnt earn it, their family did...it is still their money...to spend as they wish, unless we want to implement socialism that redistributes the wealth....
for me, I will still take Montana over ever other state in teh country, and will take this country over every other country...
as to the elk only on private land...routinely I can find 350+ B&Cbulls on public land...and the occassional 380+ bull...
it is an irrefutable fact that there has been a DECIMATION of certain elk herds...and those certain elk herds
seem to be where the greater density of wolves are...this too is an irrefutable fact...but appreantly that "inconvenient truth" is too deep for some folk...
04-23-2008, 09:57 PM
#20
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 144
RE: Idaho elk gone......
ORIGINAL: MTMountainMan
In the past 100 years there have never been more elk here in MT than right now. If you don't believe me check the FWP website. What expanding wolf packs will do to that number I don't know. I do know that 20% of the wolf packs in MT are in my county and that there are still plenty of elk here. The fact is, MT FWP doesn't know what to do about so many moreelk in this state, but continued declining success rates among hunters.The biggestproblem here for elk and elk huntersis the sale of ranches, traditional wintering grounds,for ranchettes and land being advertised as "locking up" 1000's of acres of public land (ie - no access).Hunters don'twant to talk about that. Why not? We should have threads galore on this site saying what BS this is. Cabela's Trophy Properties can suck it. Instead, we blame wolves. Wolves kill elk, no argument there. But, the highest numbers of elk in a century? Declining success rates? We can't get to the elk because they winter on Ted Turner's ranch(es) andthey're locked up by outfitters. We need more anti-Ted Turner threads here.
I think bulls are getting more silent here because of all of the bowhunters bugling and getting busted. 30 years ago you had to make a bugle out of a rubber hose or an old casing. Now everyone has a great bugle and most of those people have no idea how to get an elk within bow range without getting busted and the elk have changed their ways.
In the past 100 years there have never been more elk here in MT than right now. If you don't believe me check the FWP website. What expanding wolf packs will do to that number I don't know. I do know that 20% of the wolf packs in MT are in my county and that there are still plenty of elk here. The fact is, MT FWP doesn't know what to do about so many moreelk in this state, but continued declining success rates among hunters.The biggestproblem here for elk and elk huntersis the sale of ranches, traditional wintering grounds,for ranchettes and land being advertised as "locking up" 1000's of acres of public land (ie - no access).Hunters don'twant to talk about that. Why not? We should have threads galore on this site saying what BS this is. Cabela's Trophy Properties can suck it. Instead, we blame wolves. Wolves kill elk, no argument there. But, the highest numbers of elk in a century? Declining success rates? We can't get to the elk because they winter on Ted Turner's ranch(es) andthey're locked up by outfitters. We need more anti-Ted Turner threads here.
I think bulls are getting more silent here because of all of the bowhunters bugling and getting busted. 30 years ago you had to make a bugle out of a rubber hose or an old casing. Now everyone has a great bugle and most of those people have no idea how to get an elk within bow range without getting busted and the elk have changed their ways.
i do agree with you that many states are losing valuable hunting areas to private owners. now i dont know about montana but idaho has large chunks of ground that cannot be sold to private owners. i may be wrong but i think i heard once idaho has more public ground than other state in the lower 48. (could be wrong but i think thats what i heard)
the areas i see the wolves decimating elk herds are in areas with virtually no private ground and 10 or 15 years ago held thousands and thousands of elk. now there may be several hundred and thats all. just a few years ago for just the one unit i hunt every year there went from over 1000 controlled hunt tags plus however many general season tags were issued, to now less than half that number. the reason for that is plain and simple the elk are simply not there in the numbers they used to be. and the harvest numbers show that there werent years and years of mass slaughtering of elk.