Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

I tried running a search on this ammo here and came up with nothing. If it has been discussed, humor me and point me to whereI might read it. I reload all my own ammo, so I have never used the Fusion, but a friend of mine used it on elk this fall, and the bullet core and jacket completely seperated. The ad for fusion reads in part,, andI quote, " Fusion's lethal punch comes from bonding the jacket to the core in a special process at the molecular level. This completely eliminates jacket and core seperation..". When he contacted Federal about it, this was the reply he recieved.

("thoughts would bethat this bullet was specifically designed for deer and I never recommend it for larger game. I’m surprised the dealer did not inform you orpossibly he also did not know. All advertisements and packaging indicate this. Im sincerely glad that it turned out well but I would use a tougher ,deeper penetrating bullet like the Barnes triple Shock X, Nosler Partition for optimal penetration and weight retention.)

HUH? What didI miss here? Their very own ad (at least in the Cabela's catalog thatI looked it up in) says nothing of the sort. Maybe it says something to this effect on the actual box, as I said,I don't have or use it, so I don't know. Regardless, IMO, it is not up to a dealer to know or tell you what ammo to use on what game, half of the clerks that work in the chain sporting goods store don't know a gun from a granola bar in the first place. And secondly, if you took their promo to heart, you should be able to shoot any animal with a .243 Fusion, and even if the bullet only went a third of the way through, it still would not seperate. Bear with me here, I'm not suggesting anybody ought to go elk hunting with a .243, but if one would belive what they say about their ammo, they certainly should not expect trouble when huntingelk with a 30-06.I am going to contact Federal myself just for my own interest, and do a little more research into this, mostly just wondering what experiences any of you may have had with this ammo, either good or bad as far as bullet performance goes, especially on big game. I'm interested in bullet performance only, accuracy is not in question here.

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

Not to start a pissing contest here but the box of Federal Fusion --I have it in front of me as I type this. It has whitetail deer antlers on 3 sides of the box. On the back of the box it talks about the bullet. It says "Inside the first fusion-energized deer bullet" Further in the details of the bullet again "Achieves combination of expansion& strength never before avaible in a deer rifle projectile".

But I agree with you that a fusion bullet should have held together. What was he using 30/06? CB

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

I quit reloading for my 270 when I tried the Fusions. I won't be reloading for anything that I can get Fusions for. Every animal I have hit with the Fusion has gone less than 25 yards. All did good but not excessive Damage. I am sold. Federal does list them as good for Elk as well as deer.

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

All of the ads I've ever seen have only talked about it as a deer bullet.

However, I know the engineer that designed the Fusion and he used it on an elk this year and it performed as intended.

I've heard mixed reviews.

Oh and there has been threads in this forum and in the guns forum on this subject.

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

If he hunted elk with a .243, than he's an IDIOT no matter what you could say. A .243 of any variation is not going to do the job for an elk, but a 30-06 would be just fine, but he might have used a way too small amount of power, the amount he uses for deer.

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

Younggun. Do me the courtesy of re-reading the original post, slowly this time. There was no suggestion of elk hunting with a .243, only a question and discussion here on advertised bullet performance.
CB..thanks for the box info, as I say, I don't use the stuff and do not have a box in front of me to read. Someone who was ordering from a place like Cabela's would not have that info, only what is in the catalog ad, which would lead one to believe that this would be a great bullet on game....which I'm not saying it isn't, just that what I saw did not impress me. The gun used was a Rem 700 in 30-06, with a 180 gr.
James B...I'm not looking to step on toes, just looking for anyone with personal experience or information with this load, thanks for the post also. Have you used this on game bigger than deer, and if so, did you still have good bullet performance?
BrutalAttack...you might be the one to shed some light on this for me as well, if you know the guy that designed the bullet. Since one can order this ammo from,(I believe, I don't have the info in front of me right now), .243 right up to .338, I would think that one could assume from (again), reading the Fusion ad in the Cabela's catalog, that the bullet would hold together whether you choose to hunt whitetails with the .243, or bigger game with any of the larger calibers. Let's (please) don't any of us start the whole Ford vs Chevy thing as far as suitable elk calibers, regardless of what anyone's opinions are on the 30-06, it has accounted for many elk. So, my question remains, should this bullet, in this caliber, on an elk, have held together as it is claimed they will? And is the actual bullet,(other than weight, obviously), for the .243 designed or made any differently than one for the .338?
I am not looking to start arguments, only get some info from some of you who might have experience with this ammo, thanks.

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

I think deer sized game and structure would be the optimum for the bullet. They do push the Barnes bullets for larger game.

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

No first hand experience with fusion as I reload nor have any desire to try them. I was under the impression marketed for deer. The price point wouldsupport that from what I have seen locally. Then again other "deer" bullets are used to harvest larger than deer game, many don't find them optimal but in the end the user must deceide for themselves. I guess your buddy will be looking elsewhere for his next elk projectile, which is howsome come to the realization that some bullets areintended/better for certain applications.

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

Layne Simpson had an artical a few months back about Premium bullets. In that artical he listed the Fusion as a very good bullet for Elk as well as deer. So far I have only used it on big mule deer. This said, I have read crappy reports on every bullet made on these forums with the possible exception of the TXS. Things happen when bullets hit animals, some of the things are good and some not so good. One thing is for sure, no bullet will ever do every job just right every time. Its not just unlikely, its impossible. I will continue to use the Fusion because it works for me and the science behind its development is sound. In Federals tests, the jacket will not seperate from the core,

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

I'll probably still consider the Fusion strickly a deer/antelope bullet. Everything I've ever read only speaks to it as a deer bullet. To me, the fact that people have killed elk with it isn't really a factor. There are other, proven designs out there for elk that can be used until more information is available. I don't want to risk seperation or premature expansion on longer shots on elk so that is why I personally use Partitions and TBBC, to me they are the most proven. I've also have great results from the Remington Accutip boat tail on elk, though not at long range.

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

Federal designed that bullet from the base up for white-tail deer and related game (with respect to size and bone density).

Now, since it is a bonded bullet, I would suspect that it would be fine for elk. But, if you jacket and core separation with a bonded bullet, it was likely with a fast moving bullet (like a 7mag) and it was likely inside of 150 yards. It may well have just turned inside out. Did you acctually FIND a separated core and jacket? And you can pop the lead freely in and out of the jacket like you can with a Sierra GameKing?

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

Wow the accutip is none other than a Hornady SST. In my experience it is Hornady's answer to the Nosler Ballistic Tip, results were very similar to that of the NBT I have used on many deer sized game. I would think at closer range it not be as goodon larger game than longer but then again I haven't nor doI plan on attempting to verify this notion. My opinion is while it and others may work a bullet designed for controlled expansion is the better choice for the larger deer species. Never lost an elk or moose and don't plan on it, I like the TSX now but previously the CT failsafe and NP were my preference. I have used the accubond to harvest both animals but not sure I could trust it on a heavy raking shot vs the others. Didthe jobon a rib in and out but so do theTSX, NP, etc. I know these will slug through the shoulder to get the vitals if need be.

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

Were you saying your buddy was hunting with a .243, or a 30-06, if he used a 30-06, he's an idiot. I didn't say you were suggesting using a .243 on elk.

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

Well, I've always heard it was a deer bullet, and if all goes well, will be using it on whitetails this fall/winter.

A bit off topic, but younggun, if he used a 30-06 on elk, why is he an idiot?

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

slo-bo------------I use an 30/06 for my elk hunting. I've used plain jane bullets for years without a problem---"core-lokts", "power-points" & now "Hornady's interlock" spire points-----all are 180 grains. This year I had a buddy come out & hunt with me. He borrowed an 06 from me & I had it sited in with 180 Nolser Partitions. He took a bull---IMO there was no difference between them. IMO at 30/06 speed plain jane bullets are fine.

I'm surprised that a bonded bullet came apart. He was using 180 grain factory ammo, correct?

I guess the good thing is the elk still fell. CB

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

CB.. you seem to be one of the few that are staying on track with my original intent of this post/question, and if you will allow me to quote you..." I'm surprised that a bonded bullet came apart"...my point exactly.
When this ammo is advertised as... "Fusion's lethal punch comes from bonding the jacket to the core in a special process at the molecular level. This completely eliminates jacket and core seperation...", that is what I would expect the bullet to do, regardless of what caliber rifle it was fired from.Correct, he was using 180 grain factory ammo,and yes, he did get the elk, so the ultimate end of the story was positive.
James B..I must agree with you in part, nothing in life is perfect 100% of the time, and given the many different conditions present with any given shot taken, the results are bound to be varied. However, I do question Federal's tests, when and if they say they the jacket "will not seperate from the core", as I have seen differently. WhatI would like is a reasonable explanation from them, or someone,as to HOW and WHY this took place? This post is not a blanket condemation of Federal or their products, more a quest for some answers and explainations.
SinceI don't shoot factory ammo, as I prefer to reload, I appreciate input from all of you who have actually used the Fusion ammo.

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

slo-bo............I don't buy into the "bonded" bullet. My question is---Why buy a bonded bullet @ $22/box for deer when "core-lokts" @ $10/box have been killing them for years?

If a premium bullet is prefered-----the partition is never a bad choice--IMO.

Just my rough rule of thumb is if you are pushing 3000 fps----go with a partition. For 30/06 velocity----old plain jane bullets are fine. In fact I really like the old 180 round nose "core-lokt" out of my 30/06. CB

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

My understanding of the Fusion is that it's designed for deer size game... Glad it worked out on an ELK, but why be cheap with your ELK cartridge? I made a visual inspection of Fusion in .270 and the bullet appeared to be exactly the same as the $7.99 per box Power Shok bullet... Didn't disassemble or saw in half or anything, but looks like a duck, must be a duck:eek:

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

Wow I didn't know that. Interesting.

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

Here's the answer to that question. All bullets are NOT created equal and there is a great reason why spend double the price for ammunition.

CB...you remind me of my uncles that I grew up hunting with. I don't mean that in a bad way because they taught me about all I know when it comes to hunting and I admire them very much. But they have that "old school" mentality when it comes to bullets. I have heard over and over that "dead is dead". Here is my view on that.

My uncle Brett has been using core-lokt's for as long as I can remember. I've never known him to use anything else. I have see him shoot several elk. He's got all the characteristics that an elk hunter should have. Waits for a clean shot and always has good shot placement. I've never seen him shoot an elk that we didn't find within a short distance. However I have first hand seen the difference literally side by side what a core-lok't bullet does compared to a "premium bullet". The core-lok't bullets don't retain their weight like say a partition or barnes x.Those bullet fragments gotta go somewhere.

Now I butcher my own meat so Ihave seen the difference. If you don't butcher your own meat you may be surprised. Icut up an elk for my uncle Brett once. He had hit a rib and half the bullet went through the vitals and the other half bounced and logged itself in the rear ham. He lost a lot of good meatto meat damage.In fact I have seem him loseall his roasts on one front shoulder due to a core-lok't coming apart a ruining all of the meat. When you think of losing say just 10 lbs. of meat at even a buck a pound (what it would cost you to get it somewhere else) you have madeup the difference between your plain jane bullets andthat premium box of shells with one shot. You add up several animals and the meat saved it can add up.

Core-lok's don't always do this but this do this A LOT in my experience.A jacketed bullet doesn't do this near as much and why I can see the frustration with theFusion. It's not always just about getting the job done, the premium bullets aresupposed to be for effenciency in doing so as well. That's the "new school" way of thinking. So IMO all dead elk are not created equal.

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

Rather,
While IMHOthat is true,it will be acontested "sale" on this site.

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

Rather-----I've never used or seen the results of a Barnes. But I've seen the results of a partition, 1st hand.Meat loss was the sameas a core-lokt, that front half is just a standard bullet & the back half is a solid. To each there own, I stick with plain jane bullets out of a 30/06. CB

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

I guess I'm somewhere between CB and R-B-H, in that for most game, ie., deer, I think most factory loads will perform plenty well enough, if not perfectly, to drop what you want to put in the freezer. Ienjoy reloading my own ammo,for any number of reasons, but probably the biggest reason being,I have control over what case, primer, powder, and bulletI use, (in this case, a .308).I have used Hornady bulletson caribou with excellent results, and( many years ago, used factory Rem ammo on whitetails very sucessfully). When going for elk, I decided to use the Barnes TSX, whichI was very satisfied with as far as performance. In all fairness, the bullet punched through, so Icannot say if itretained full weight, I only know it broke several ribs on entry, and made a nice hole on exit. When I see (whats left of) a bullet like my friend shot, and recovered only the jacket from the innards, rest assured, I will not be putting that bullet into my 'possibles" bag. I will still stand by my original post, that if a bullet is sold as being basically impossible to have the jacket and core seperate, and it does read that way, it had better not if you want me to buy it.

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

The Partition is not solid on the back end. Hence the "partition".

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

Hey Guys,

Well, I guess I am the "idiot" who used a 180gr 30-06 Federal Fusion on an elk. Just so everyone is clear, I was using a Winchester Model 70 in a 30-06. The elk in question was an adult cow and the shot was about 35 yards. No matter how you look at it, Federal says the core won't seperate from the jacket and this didn't seem to hold true. Now don't get me wrong, I like Federals and use their premium Barnes sabot in my shotgun for deer as well as their turkey loads for turkeys. I am going to try their Barnes Triple Shock X. Yes, dead is dead and fortunately it all worked out. It may have been a different story if the shot was further and it was a big bull. Oh by the way, I purchased the box at Cabela's (World's Foremost Outfitter) at their headquarters in Sidney, Nebraska. I told the ammo dude what I has hunting and I'm pretty sure he didn't say "Son, these are for deer only". I think I would have remembered that! Here is the suspect in question:





This one is my favorite :D

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

Not trying to start a fight here but um....the last person I would trust is some yahoo behind the counter at Cabelas that probably has only seen an elk on video. I mean for crying out loud there is deer antlers on the box!

This press release refers to the Fusion as "a deer bullet of unimagined kinetic force by electrochemically joining pure copper to an extreme pressure-formed core. It releases radically high terminal energy upon impact, radiating lethal shock throughout the target. "

http://outdoorwriters.atk.com/defaul...&year=2006

Also, every add I've seen in every outdoor magazine specifically pictured or statedit as a deer bullet.

Oh well live and learn I guess. You don't have ot worry about much seperation the TSX it's pretty well solid. :)

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

Rob,
That is pretty definitive, looks seperated to me for something that infers that it is fused.
You won't be disappointed in a Barnes TSX, they are mean mistreaters and have no core to shed, monolithic.
(BTW, I've never been disappointed in Partition either).

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

Gosh, Rob, from your pictures, that's an awful big "hollow point" you were using. And you say it was from a .243 and the shot was from 350 yards? Wow!
Nice picture buddy!

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

deleted

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

No.
Re-read.

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

EKM.... Slo-Bo was there and I can prove it. :D

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

Giggly Games aside,
Whether he (or you) were there or not, these two don't square up.

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

EKM,

Slo-Bo and Champlain Islander were with me on the hunt and know what I was shooting. Slo-Bo is just joking around.

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

EKM.. Iwas indeed just having a bit of fun. So many people only half read a post and then rush to get their own post in, that it sometimes becomes comical, and VERY obvious that they haven't taken the time to read and understand it.It was the same with this thread, I was just making light of it.Everything else on the thread is for real, I was just"funnin"Rob a bit with my last post. Sorry, I just have a hard time taking ALL of life too seriously! Perhaps you ought to consider not taking everything so seriously also...who knows, you might live longer.

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

No the back half isn't solid but Brutal already addressed that. Like I said, I've seen it too many times and there IS a definite difference. But it's something you don't always see looking at it once. You have to see it several times to realize they perform differently. If dead is dead to you and meat damage isn't a concern, keep using the plain janes.

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

It's one of those things....it's like a ladder, one step leads to another and you end up at a single destination.

Q1 - Does a "premium" (Partition, Barnes X) bulletretain it's weightbetter than a "plain jane" (core-lok't) bullet?
A1 - Proven, undisputable research says yes it does.

Then,

Q2 - What happens to the "lost" weight? Where does it go?
A2 - It fragments into smaller pieces. Since the loss is generally greater with plain jane, especially with heavy bone,these smaller pieces can have a greater "grenade" effect in the way those pieces distribute inside an animal. Sometimes these pieces break into what is called "shards" which are sometimes only detectable once the meat is being cosumed.Athough this is not too common it has happened to me and quite frankly sucks.

Then,

Q3 -What is the effect of this fragmenting?
A3 - Fragmenting ruins meat.

Then,

Q4 - Is all ruined meat visible?
A4 - Well yes and no. The heavy damage where extreme shock took place is visible once the hide is removed. This is noticeable due to blood vessels breaking.(Bruising) But some meat damage is not detecable until the animal is butchered. This can be bruising between muscle groups that wasn't visible until those groups were seperated. There can be "channeling" were a bullet fragment creates a channel right through the middle of say a rump roast.(This sometimes does not have a bruise along the channel.)I would cut that out due to the "shard" that could still be in there. I've seen fragments enter intestines, stomachs, and other organs to ruin the surrounding meat.

Trust me there is a difference. I've learned that it's true some things are over priced but in general you get what you pay for. I'm not trying to argue with anyone but there is a difference,believe it or not.

Sounds to me like the fusion is not an elk bullet regardless of what they say.

RE: Federal Fusion..NOT impressed
 

As stated in a few replies back and forth, I recall them advertising it as a deer sized animal cartridge bullet, but I think that was in a Field and Stream or Outdoor Life or one of the other advertisement magazines that include two articles for filler. Sorry to hear about your results on an elk with the bullet.

Now as to first hand experience, I have some: This year I wanted to shoot a deer with my cowboy guns, so I opted for my 38/357 Lever Gun. Marlin 357 Carbine to be exact. Had the gun sighted in at 100 yards dead on, open sights with the 357 Fusion's. Ended up shooting a large bodied Mule Deer Doe at 65 yards, shot when right where I wanted, punched the lungs, she went 5 yards and was down. I was VERY impressed with the results. Complete penetration and very decent wound channel, exit. Took one rib completly out and part of a second one as well.

Now about other bullet performance, Using my 338win mag and 225 Barnes TSX handloaded shot a cow elk, complete penetration at 394 yards. Dropped the elk where it stood, rolled down hill 5 yards. Dad shot his with same loads out of his 338, and we actually recovered the bullet in the hide under the skin on the back side. But she went about 20yards before going down. If I can get pictures I will post the pics in a different thread maybe.