BrutalAttack

Well I'm almost sure that was a stipulation of the reintroduction. I don't have a source off hand but I'll check my contactin Wildlife Services and see if that was a reintroduction or implemented afterwords. There is no doubt that they have that ability now, but the issue is have they always had it? Is that correct?

No it doesn't sound like something the feds would allow. But they do. Any rancher that see's a wolf attacking his livestock is allowed to kill it.

BrutalAttack

Yes because opinion polls are sound scientific evidence.

The Yellowstone elk herd numbers are publicly available. Why do you need an opinion poll if you have the actual numbers? Is that because the actual trends don't support what you want? Why is a predator hunting prey (which is what God created predators to do) unethical?

It's not that smart to make a bunch of statements like that and then not back them up with any knowledge.

Hope this helps.

smokechaser

Wow i didnt mean to spark a war here but from wat ive seen there are about the same amount of arguments both ways. It seems like it just matters wat side your on as to how you observe the results. And the poll is just to see how the people who visit my site feel about the issue. and as for not backing up my statements up with knowledge im not gonna leave a post a whole page long if you really wanna know wat i know about the subject my emails on my site im me on msn and well talk about it.

buck knife

I am not on either side here as I don't have enouht information. but I thought I would share a little here since there was mention that the western states were comparing the wolf study to Minnesota. what you need to keep in mind is that "most" of the wolf population in MN is in the northern area (more in the NE). Most of the farmers (ranchers) are in the southern and western areas. that to me means the wolves shouldn't effect the farms as much as maybe the western states, because they aren't in the same area.

I have personally seen 3 wolves chace down what looked to me to be a healthy 6 point buck (still in velvet) when I was hunting bear in north-eastern MN. I have never seen a deer as tired as that deer was.

I did 2 quick searches on mn wolves and some on farm land. I found this site and it seems to have some good info on it and should be a good source. Here is a section of it:

Wolves occasionally prey on Minnesota livestock wherever the two coexist, but most depredations occur in north-central and northwestern counties where farm density and livestock production is highest within the wolf s range. Fritts (1982) estimated that there were about 12,230 farms (at least 80% having some livestock) in the wolf range in 1979, containing 234,000 cattle, 91,000 sheep, and an unknown number of turkeys, swine, horses, goats, chickens, ducks, and geese. Recalculation of the number of farms based on more recent census data (1982 v. 1976; Minnesota Agricultural Statistics 1984) showed about 7,200 farms. This figure is lower than the previous one because a more restricted wolf range was used in computations of farm numbers-based on a refinement of the known wolf distribution (Mech et al. 1988a); and a real decline occurred in farm numbers in wolf range estimated at 13% from 1976 to 1982. A further decline in farm numbers from 7,200 to 6,800 was revealed by the 1987 census data, but total land area in farms declined only 1%. Farm size averaged 141.6 ha in the wolfrange during the study, tending to be larger in northwestern counties and smaller in northeastern counties.

now it seems that the number of farms are declining pretty steadily. I am not sure if there are other issues involved in this because I am not going to spend the time on researching it. The actual web site this came from is
http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/1...live/study.htm

I also agree with whoever said that the wolves where gone for so long that the elk don't know how to defend themselves from the wolves. This thinking might be why Canada doesn't have such a problem....the wolves have always been there.

I agree with the local states regulating the wolf population if there needs to be regulations. People in thousands of miles away don't see it first hand and don't get the phone calls from the ranchers. it doesn't effect them so it becomes low priority by human nature.

tangozulu

Hi Smokechaser

Surely people as a whole inflict plenty of cruelty themselves when predating elk. It really has no place in this debate.Nor does your survey on peoples opinion on what the impacts may be, reflect anything based on reality.
The facts still are that Canada has large elk herds and large populations of wolves. Your theory thus being only american elk cannot co-exist with wolves. Lets be honest, human hunters just don't want the competision.
happy hunting

BrutalAttack

This is yet another misconception. Animals don't just "forget" predator defense tactics ina few generations.Especially since many of the same tactics are used for all predators.I've been in several areas pre and postwolf introduction and I can tell you that elk respondedimmediately by changing foraging times, areas andgeneral habits.This isn't a situation where an entirely new predator is introducted into a totally unsuspectingpopulation, like say dumping tigermuskies in a cutthroat trout lake.

That is akin to saying that if we didn't useour toes for several generations they would suddenly disappear. It doesn't work thatway.

smokechaser

ok, obviously this object of this post has now become to shoot me down so this will be my last post on the subject. Im just gonna clear up a few things. I never said that my poll was in any way an acurrate representation of the wolves impact i simply made it to see wat opinion my visitors believed on the subject. And lastly to clear up the wasteful and cruelness of wolves hunting patterns. I realize rereading my post that what i said came across way different than i wanted it to. By that comment i meant that the wolf's style of hunting is such that the quick spread of the reintroduced wolves will have a drastic impact. American elk can coexist with wolves i just think the wolf numbers are growing to quickly and will overwhelm the elk and other game animals for quite a while.

jones123

I still think yer wrong, or maybe MT is different. This is becoming less than relevant, but now I just gotta know. I will let you know what I find out from my same ranching buddies.

tangozulu

Hi Smokechaser,
Not sure who you feel is trying to shoot you down but it certainly is not My intent if the refrence is reguarding myself. My only point is that Alberta has elk, wolves and over 1,000,000 cows. Woves don't seem to be an issue at all.
Happy hunting

jones123

From The Western Roundup, January 25,2005:

In early January, Interior Secretary Gale Norton announced that the federal government will give Idaho and Montana more control over threatened gray wolves . . . . .

Previously, ranchers needed written authorization from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to kill wolves, and the wolves had to be caught in the act of attacking livestock. Under the rule change, ranchers in Idaho and Montana can now kill wolves without federal permission, simply for chasing livestock.



I stand corrected.

Actually, I'm mostly corrected. I am sure that having to get permission was about thesame as not being allowed. That would explain the stories about USFS relocating instead of allowing the rancher to kill the wolf.



From the same article - one less moose for the rest of us. The wolf didn't need to pay for a license . . . .


A gray wolf on a moose kill in Montana.
D. Robert and Lorri Franz/Corbis