RE: Wolf news
 

Yes because there is an extreme shortage of moose around these parts. :eek:

RE: Wolf news
 

this is how i look at the wolf issue: i say kill every one you see

but no matter where you stand on the issue the clear line i draw when it comes to wolves is the safety of my family, friends and my way of life. i live in idaho and i know several people that have hunted in areas that are know to have wolves. one of my best hunting buddies killed an elk two years ago and before he could even get to his animal there were six wolves already on it. he said one even charged him and another started to circle around to try and stalk HIM!

now when the wolves get that numerous and that bold....i start shootin'

RE: Wolf news
 

If people were allowed to shoot every wolf they see, do you honestly beleive that the wolves would be gone? They were not eraticated by shooting them, it was through years of trapping and poison. Europe burned forests to remove them. Wyoming sounds a little farfetched with their wolf plan, but it would most likely only give them a happy medium of having a few wolves around that are too nervous to cause problems and hang around ranches killing livestock. Not to have so many wolves as to cause too much of a dent in the big game herds. The sadest part of this whole wolf deal is that we have learned nothing from our elders. I remember a talk that I had several years ago with a 90 year old woman who was raised in some of the best deer hunting country you can imagine. We could see several deer from her house on the Salmon River, Graves Creek drainage and I said "Geeze, with as many deer as there are here, I can't even imagine how many there must have been when you were a kid", she looked at me like I was an idiot and said "What do you mean? There were no deer here when I was a child. I saw my first deer when I was 16 and didn't even know what it was. If the settlers lost a cow , there children might not survive the winter and they shot every predator they could. After years of doing this, the deer finally had a chance to get a foothold in this area". Why is it that all the changes we make to our environment are considered bad? I like the fact that we have deer and elk, that when I pack in I can worry about where I'll find my elk in the morning instead of what's going to eat my horse that night. You will learn more talking with elders and spending time in the woods than listening to a professor who sits in a University trying to convince everyone that he is an expert on the woods.
Another situation I have seen was the guy who bought several thousand acres of Joseph Plains to log and have a private hunting preserve. After a few years of not letting anyone else hunt on his property, all the deer and elk disappeared, bear and cougar were all over the place and cattle were disappearing like crazy. He had turned that property back into what it used to be. He was also smart enough to realize what he had done, let people in to shoot predators (where I come in) and reversed the situation.

RE: Wolf news
 

Does Alberta have a wolf season?? Idaho doesn't! I think a lot of hunters wouldn't bitch so much about the wolves if we had a season on 'em down here.

RE: Wolf news
 

racowboy- great post!

I grew up just up the creek from ya in New Meadows. I remember talking to the oldtimers on how there was never any elk in the valley till they brought them in by train back in the 30's. Before that they had the wolves and griz wiped out to protect the livestock.

I posted earlier that I wasn't against a wolf re-introduction, but I was heavily apposed to how they wanted to go about doing it. My worst fears came true this fall when I was up Hazard Creek for my archery hunt. I let out a bugle to see if I could fire up a bull, and in return I got the call of the wolf. An aquaintence who guides out of the rapid river area said he actually heard the wolves imitating the elk so to locate them easier.

Anyways, it is just too little too late in my opinion with these Idaho wolves. We should have let the ranchers kill 'em on sight years ago, and there should be a season on them with a female take, similar to how we do couger, in place as well.

Us Humans re-introduced them, now us humans need to put control on them! Until then, shoot, shovel & shut up.

RE: Wolf news
 

Amen to that... just keep doing what you are doing and you will make a difference!

RE: Wolf news
 

You relate the old timer's story from the dark ages of the '20s and '30s. It's true that we nearly lost our wildlife at that time, hence my use of the term 'dark ages'. To attribute that situation to wolves is just wildly off base. Weren't there wolves in 1850? In 1880? Seems like we had some game running around then, didn't we? Places like PA, in fact the whole eastern half of the US,nearly ran out of whitetails in that same time frame (1920s), and they hadn't had wolves or cougars for many decades.

The real lesson from those old stories is that people are really handy at finding scapegoats for their problems that don't involve looking in the mirror. The Missoula newspaper just printed an article about hunting in the 1890s. You could shoot 8 deer, 8 bighorns, 8 mountain goats, and 3 elk in a season in Montana. The season ran from roughlyAugust through January. Do you think that maybe such liberal bag "limits" for human predators might be connected in some way to the lack of game in the 1920s?

Why didn't the Indians worry about wolves in the really old times? If you take a look at it, the Indians were killing as high a percentage of the game populations in those days as we do. Yet they never sweated bears and cougars and wolves, oh my. Note that they did, however, manage the habitat, burning off rangeland regularly to replenish the forage.

That, in my view, is more evidence for my personal view, that we overrate the effect of predators and underrate the effect of habitat.

I too, support having wolves managed by the states. "Managed" being a euphemism for issuing wolf tags.

RE: Wolf news
 

Okay, I get your point (thanks tothe smiley guy with the glasses rolling his eyes).So if moose abound, I think there should be more moose tags to go along with wolf tags. ;)

RE: Wolf news
 

I didn't attribute the situation to wolves. I stated that Elk were shipped in by rail. Most of the wolves and Griz (predators) had been killed off by ranchers (humans) by then, leavingno major predator threat other than the solitary cougar and black bear for these elk. The big thing to mention is that at this time game management was in place, and these new elk herds were then managed (tags). When the herd grew, and graze land and farm lands were threatened by the elk, depredation tags were in place to "thin" them outeven more.

Way back before the "dark ages" as you put it, there was no game management. We all know the effects us humans have had globally on game animals taken with no control. It was thru game conservationalists like Theodore Roosevelt and others that started the wheel for the game management we see today.

My big beef is where was this management plan when they introduced the wolves?? The biggest mistake made was letting it go to the federal government to decide. It should have went to the state level to begin with. It's been over 10 years now, and still in the hands of the Feds, with the possibility of "oh, you can manage your wolves when all 3 states come up with an "approved" plan, and then we'll let ya have them". So, us Idahoans get to sit here on our hands and wait for our neighbors to figure out the plan of attack, all the while the wolf population escalates out of control. Hmmm...good plan!
[/align]

RE: Wolf news
 

Read my other posts above if you haven't yet. Trust me: Fish and Game would like nothing more than to have wolves delisted. The ball is in Wyomings court and unfortunately they seem to be sitting on it.

RE: Wolf news
 

You sir are right on. All those events lead to the "Leopold" movement and the virtual birth of the wildlife management field.

RE: Wolf news
 

Saying that he population is escalating out of control is a nothing but hyperbole. The ESA listing does not occur at the state level, nor do recovery plans for ESA listed animals typically occur at the state level. The states do not have thier own ESA laws that is why it had to be federal.

Actually, Aldo Leopold is considered the father of modern wildlife management. Liberal bag limits, habitat loss and just general Manifest Destiny wastefulness spurred the wildlife management movement.

RE: Wolf news
 

So, BrutalAttack, I have been enjoying this discussion. What do you do and/or what is your background? Probably the more frequent post-ers already know.

RE: Wolf news
 

Do the people of Northern Idaho realize that we did not have deer and elk here before culling the predators? The Native Americans of our area lived on fish and migrated to hunt elk and buffalo that anyone who has done a little homework knows were plains animals. Guess why Lewis and Clark ate their horses when they traveled through the Lochsaw region. Wasn't because they were tripping over elk! Who was there before them that shot out all the game? So people overhunted them back then...hell, nobody was here but predators! I say the changes we have made that allowed and brought the deer and elk to our area are good and the wolf thing is a bad idea. Please do some homework and don't call our settlers stupid or ignorant for telling us how it really was.
Dirt and Brutalattack, you do a good job of stirring the pot....seems that is what you are trying to do.

RE: Wolf news
 

Which begs the question: if there were no deer or elk here before as you say, then what did allthe predators eat? Each other I suppose? [8D]There had to have been a prey base to support all those nasty, evil predators that we had to kill off.

Yeah great point there...:eek:

"Wilderness areas" have never had highgamedensitiesby virtue of the fact that most of the high quality forage doens't occur at altitude. So it is quite possible and probably likely that in Lewis and Clarks limited travels through the most rugged parts of the continental divide, they didn't exactly go through prime elk country at the time. Most game was likely concentrated on the grassland areas where food was more abundant and predators could be seen further away. That isn't a very strong argument considering that fact that they traveled into and out of the area by the same route and didn't exactly survey the entire country for wildlife.

RE: Wolf news
 

At that time there were damn few predators and very little else. This brings up another interesting point....like the anti-hound people. Lot of hunters believe we should get rid of the hound hunters and beleive they will get more chance to get cougar or bear themselves. These animals are territorial and will kill and eat each other when the populations get on the rise. Lewis and Clark ate a lot of bear and horse (not because they thought they were tastey). The elk were planted on the Lochsaw in the late 20's and if you spend some time around Kooskia and Kamiah you'll see the pictures of the first elk being unloaded there. I remember them on the wall of the Kamiah General Store.

I guide the Lochsaw and Selway areas, have watched the declining elk herds and rising predator population. How many days have you spent out in the field this year?

RE: Wolf news
 

Yes as has everyone else. Actually I own land on the Selway and have spent alot of time up there, it's also where I hunt. I seem to still do pretty well having taken two 300+ bulls in the past 3 years.

What people fail to mention is that the decline began in the late 80s before wolves were reintroduced. This gets back to my original point thatthe lack of timber harvest in the 90s and fifty years offire suppression hadfinally taken the toll,keeping elk numbers from rebounding from predator losses and enablingblack bearsto kill 80% of the calf crop (see the 1985 Selway predation study). So I guess I don't see your point. No one is denying that elk herds have declined and predators are on the rise, this has been happening for a long time. I am only making the point that predators, specifically wolves, are not the main culprits.

RE: Wolf news
 

Some people will try to make you think there is no problem with having all these wolves pushed on the residents of Montana, Idaho and Wyoming. The fact is they have in many areas completely changed the predator - prey balance, we hunters are part of the predator - prey balance, anti hunters would like to take us out of it, the wolf is their #1 tool. Wolves eat five to ten pounds of meat per day, average that at 7.5, times one year 365 = 2737.5 pounds per wolf, times 900 (that's the number that USFWP admits to in these three states) wolves = 2,463,750 (yea that's two million four hundred and sixty three thousand seven hundred and fifty) pounds of meat per year in Montana, Idaho and Wyoming. Now wolves don't eat the whole animal, sometimes they don't eat any of it. Wolves are a tool of the anti hunter, the more elk, deer, moose, that can be killed by wolves = that number that can not be killed by hunters.

Here is a quote from a MSU paper, here is the link: http://www.montana.edu/etd/available/unrestricted/Batastini_0805.pdf

"Gude and Garrott report that in the Lower Madison Valley study area elk comprised of 74 to 93 percent of wolf predation during the three winter seasons studied (Gude and Garrott 2003). They also found that calves made up 64 to 88 percent of the total elk killed by wolves. Kill rates of elk by wolves were found to be between 11.2 and 13.75 per wolf per 100 days (Gude and Garrott 2003). While these results do prove useful in showing the predation rates of wolves on this local population of elk during the winter months, it is limited in that the study period encompasses only the winter months and may not be an accurate representation of wolf predation throughout the remainder of the year.

The results from Montana’s Gallatin Canyon study provide a depth of insight into how wolves are affecting elk populations, not only through direct predation, but through the spatial and distributional effects wolves have on the elk herds in the area (Creel and Winnie 2004). The study area includes four drainages in the Gallatin Canyon, northwest of Yellowstone, which encompasses much of the winter grounds to Yellowstone Park’s Gallatin elk herd. Since wolf colonization, early winter elk calf recruitment rates have been below 20 calves to 100 cows for five of the last six winters. These recruitment rates were only below that level in one of thirteen winters before wolves colonized the area (Creel and Winnie 2004). Population counts since wolf colonization of the area have been less than 1,500 elk for six out of the last seven winters, while only sixteen of forty-one winters prior to wolf colonization had elk populations below 1,500 (Creel and Winnie 2004). Creel and Winnie found that in the study area bull elk were 6.3 times more likely to be killed by wolves than were cow elk. These studies also showed that when wolves were present elk were less likely to stray away from timbered areas and that when wolves were present, elk herd sizes halved (Creel and Winnie 2004). The reduction in herd size due to the presence of wolves was caused by cow dispersal into smaller groups and bulls leaving the herds altogether (Creel and Winnie 2004)."

"Kill rates of elk by wolves were found to be between 11.2 and 13.75 per wolf per 100 days" Get your calculators out and figure this one by year! Again there are appoxamently 900 wolves that USFWP admits to in Montana, Idaho and Wyoming. I am sure these numbers will be contested by the pro wolfers on this site.

This is really complicated science isn't it? I'm sure a first grader could figure this out!

Again wolves and the endangered species act are a tool of the anti hunter and environmental extremist. And if you think there are going to be wolf tags any time soon you are dreaming! There will be law suit after law suit to stop it from happening.

The argument that wolves and hunters are doing fine in Alaska, British Columbia, Yukon, does not work. The hunter density does not even come close in these areas. Again, predator - prey balance. For hunters, wolves and prey to be in balance in Montana, Idaho and Wyoming there needs to be either less hunters or less wolves. And since hunters are not on the endangered species list it is and will be hunters that get the short end of the stick.

I am a very successful hunter, I've shot 3 6 point bulls over 300 in the last 4 years in Montana, that does not mean there is not an extreme predator - prey imbalance in many areas. I hunt where I have the best chance, I avoid the high wolf populated areas. I'm not just a slob trying to blame my lack of success on wolves.

Here is some reading for everyone:

THE IMPACT OF WOLVES ON THE “MARKET” FOR ELK HUNTING IN
MONTANA: HUNTER ADJUSTMENT AND GAME AGENCY RESPONSE

Wolf Kills Worry Ranchers - Read this. No, ranchers could not just shoot a wolf if it was killing their calves, they will be able to under the new rule in approximately 30 days. Here is a quote. " What that means to ranchers like Quigley and Stucky is that even if they see a wolf kill a cow, they can't shoot the wolf. Instead, they have to pick up the telephone and call either a state or federal official connected with the wolf program. The endangered listing doesn't even allow ranchers to harass wolves that chase livestock by using rubber bullets or shooting over their heads, Simes said."

WOLVES AND HUNTING

Anti-Wolf Crowd Packs Hall

MONTANA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
59th LEGISLATURE - REGULAR SESSION
COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE MINUTES

Wolves: An outfitter's view

RE: Wolf news
 

Brutal, You admit the fact that the bear are killing 80% of our elk calf crop and argue the fact of introducing more predators. You just really like to argue, huh? I hope you enjoyed the big bulls you took. Do you hunt the same season that I do or the Native American season where you can wait till the snow pushes them down to the highway and you really don't have to go out in the woods? The sadest part of this deal is the fact that our children may not have the opportunity to even see elk with the way we are doing things. I suppose that being a scientific minded person, you also back the scientific study in the Elk City area where they are spending a couple million to see if bears really do eat elk calves, whether they do this as a natural instinct or if it is a learned thing.. My thoughts are that if Idaho's bioligists don't already know that, they should all be fired.

RE: Wolf news
 

A rancher I know that lives five miles from me related a story to me of last years calving season. A wolf killed a calf right in front of him, he saw it out his window, he ran out and chased the wolf away with a pitch fork. He of course can't shoot it because it's a wolf, it's a very special animal ya know, much more important than humans. So he calls the fish and game like he is supposed to, a biologist comes out to check it out, he tells the rancher a bear killed it. He called the biologist a few choice words. He says it was obviously a pro wolf biologist fudging the numbers, there were no bear tracks around and the rancher watched the wolf kill the calf, and wolf tracks everywhere. I wonder how many of these extremely pro wolf biologists are out there?

RE: Wolf news
 

I apologize. That was uncalled for. I can't expect you to know everything that a person in the field would know.

What I'm trying to say is that if the habitat was as it should be, we wouldn't be having the predator problems we are having. I'm by no means trying to say that the wolf reintroduction had a positive effect, but I'm also not convinced that wolves are soley to blame.It was a decision that was made and it can't be taken back.

As is often the case, this isn't a black and white issue, there are numerous factors involved in the decline and the blame cannot be pinned only onpredators, though that is easier to handle than admitting that the habitat is lacking due to our changing land use patterns.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not going to respond to your implied insults. There is no need.

RE: Wolf news
 

Gosh! Now that certainly wasn't very nice! Did I hit a nerve?

RE: Wolf news
 

Please see my edited post.

RE: Wolf news
 

Actually it would have been fine to have left the name calling and such posted so everyone could see who they are dealing with. I have a valid education on our elk in this area. I didn't however get it by sitting in a classroom. I've listened intently to honest old people who are mostly gone now, spent months on horseback and on foot miles into our wilderness areas. I look at our elk like ranchers would their cattle and as a way for a poor man to keep meat on the table for his family. Our Lochsaw herd has had a rough few years. If we have a bad winter and throw in some wolves who are staying on top of the snow when the elk are falling through I don't know if our herd will recover. I've put much effort into thinning the lion and bear population in hopes of helping our herd, but now that the wolves have been thrown into the works it seems feeble. I've hunted with five great dogs now that the wolves have killed, a couple of which were pulled apart and spread out over a couple hundred yards. I know the Beale family that have lost so many cattle now. I have and old friend, who after the reintroduction of the wolves said he is ready to die now, doesn't understand this stupid place anymore. Talked to a Canadian truck driver a couple months back who said "I understand you got wolves from us and planted them down here? What, are you frig'n nuts?" And I know some people who have jobs created because of the reintroduction who think they are just wonderful. I like the elk. I figure that eventually we will learn our lesson all over again and hopefully some good decisions will be made at that time.

RE: Wolf news
 

No I'm manenough to realize I was wrong andI won't sink to that level.

I'm just a terrible, bad, evil person since I don't share your viewpoint. Very mature...;)

Well I'm glad you have learned everything there is to learnby riding your horse and talking to people who have such a narrow view of the issue. Heck I consult Canadian truck drivers all the time, they know their stuff!!

No one will respect your viewpoint when you startslinging mud. It would help you outto remember that in the future.

RE: Wolf news
 

That Canadian truck driver seemed like a pretty decent sort of a guy and I figure the Canadians have more first hand experience with the wolves than we do. That is where we got the dang things. Now, should I not trust his word because he drives a truck or because he's Canadian? I suppose you'll be re-editting your statement again?

RE: Wolf news
 

Thanks for stickin up for us Canucks racowboy, its always open season on us down here. I think the limit is two. What could Canucks possably know about anything.....especially wolves? It is a little know fact that mostof our truck drivers are actually rocket scientists in their spare time.
It may be worth remembering that no matter where you are in the USA, including Alaska, there is always a Canadian living upstream.
Happy Hunting

RE: Wolf news
 

Guys/gals,

It is pointless to argue with brutal. I've seen his type before. He's got a high priced education so he's smarter than everyone else. Anyone who actually works for a living is and idiot and has no knowledge to impart on him because he already knows it all. Remember he went to college He's proven his superiorityby quoting"peer reviewed" scientific proof. We commoners are just idiots.

PS I will not be editing this post because I want everyone to see what I said when I was pissed.

RE: Wolf news
 

This debate will rage on for years., If you think for one minute, delisting and giveing the state management of the wolf will lead to hunting you are full of $hit and dreams! Wisc, Mn, and Mich, have had wolves for 40 years and still no hunting. You will be able to hunt grizzly before the wolf. Bottom line, you can have lots of preditors or lots of game, but you can not have and will not have lots of both. Why else do they resort to arial gunning in Alaska to try and control them.I don't want the state of Wyoming to have control, you won't be able to hunt them and it will only cost theG&F more money thatthey don't have. Just like the grizzly bear. I see wolves every fall and winter with in 40 miles of where I live. We seen 5 the night before elk season and wolf tracks every day.

The jury is still out on the whole issue, this is 2005 not 1805 and times have changed. Wyoming law was violated when the wolves were released as they were already here and the Canadian Grey wolf is not native. Wyoming state law, on the books, clearly states, no none native wildlife spiecies can be introduced into the state of Wyoming, period! I aksed the area manager of the G&Fif it is illegal to introduce Canadian moose, Roosevelt elk, or Tule elk into Wyoming, he said, I quote, absolutely yes. It violates state law, I then asked what about those &ucking wolves. He shrugged his shoulders and said it is a technicality and the feds backed the program! But that I had a point.

RE: Wolf news
 

It's ok I understand. When your argument falls shortyou resort to attacking the character of the opposition in hopes of discrediting them that way. Unfortunately, this is a common tactic usually as a last resort and it has no basis in logic. It can score you some points with people already on your side of the issue but it damages your own credibility and pushes away those you wish to convince with your arguement.

RE: Wolf news
 

Distemper, parvo,mange, or conical shaped lead projectiles! YEAH!

RE: Wolf news
 

pro wolf.....anti wolf.....Doesn't matter! What matters is that the Federal government is TELLING the states what to do, or not to do. I say it (the wolf issue) is a state issue, and the feds should stay in D.C., and tend to the national issues. If a state wants bear hunting, or not, like it is in Washington state, that is up to the people of that particular state to decide. Let Id. and Mt. and Wy. decide the wolf issue as it bests suits their citizens, and then let good science guide them in the management of the animals. If a state justhas to havewolves, let them go get some, and start a wolf program. It can't be that hard, USFW managed to pull it off, and they are as polarized a group as they come.

RE: Wolf news
 

You Want Logic... Shoot Away!!! Get them Back to how they were 15 years ago. There... Yes, But Rarely seen. That's how it supposed to be. Shoot,Shovel and you can guess the rest!!!!!!!!!

RE: Wolf news
 

well i guess mister edgumacated (brutalattack) has an answer for everything anybody else says.

either way you look at the problem the only solution for right now is killing the wolves. he says the habitat isn't what it should be.....fine. but you can't make food for the elk just appear...but with a carefully placed bullet i can do my part and make a wolf DISAPPEAR!

and as far as what biology studies show i have one big problem with them....what if they are wrong? i have worked for fish and game and one of my best friends what a biologist studying the elk herds and the effect of a pair of mtn. lions in our area. he spent an entire summer out looking for the mtn. lions and he never saw a thing. i went out on my elk hunt in the same area and saw the lions 5 out of six days within half a mile of the elk herd. so what does that tell you about the biologist way of finding predators. to find a predator you have to think like one... and to this day i have never met a predatory biologist.

RE: Wolf news
 

tangozulu you said "In Northern BC, we have mountains with caribou, moose, elk, deer, sheep, goats,black/grizzly bears and WOLVESall gettin along togetherjust fine". tangozulu, thats great fine and dandy but you live in BC not Idaho, Montana or Wyoming. Thats like saying well because the elephant and lion get together great in africa we should introduce them here in the west to help boost their numbers.You mightsay well thats not their native habitat, well it was for their ancestors. The saber tooth tiger and the wooly mamoth both roamed north america. I am sure they are justlong lost cousins once removed. Being seriousI look foward to the day we can control the wolves just like the coyotes. They get the heck shot out of them buy yet they survive in strong numbers. The wolf would be no different. I agree with others that say well since we can't hunt them we need to support SSS.

RE: Wolf news
 

I agree, Very good comparison!!!

RE: Wolf news
 

Maybe some day soon! Screw Jemenez and Bangs! I would love nothing more than to rub thier nose in a dead wolf!

RE: Wolf news
 

i used to hunt in the selway not anymore . very few elk and when you would find them the wolves were there to. since brutal attack has a answer for everthing i have a ? If the habitat needed to be burned and the blackbear mountain lion where in excessive numbers which were all reducing the elk numbers why in the he@@ did they let another top predator loose in the selway i love to hunt the selway but there just are not elk like years gone by.

RE: Wolf news
 

Hi,
I was done posting in this worthless topic but you piqued my interest.

There aren't a whole lot of elk up there but if you know where to go you can still do good as I have. I think I might know where you hunted, I ran into alot of WI guys up there about 4 or 5 years ago. Also guided some PA guys.

As for the rest of your question: hindsight is 20/20. The ESA mandates certain recovery actions and we can't always see into the crystal ball and anticipate every outcome. If we did there would be no mistakes.

I'm not going to sit here and be an apologist for wolf reintroduction because I've been a staunch supporter of improving the habitat all along. I did however, feel it was necessary to shed some light on the real reasons for the elk decline long before wolf reintroduction was initialized. I probably won't post in here anymore as it's just feeding the trolls so if you want to talk to me further send me a PM. Thanks.