Outfitter Indicted
 

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

Posted the article from the Arizona Republic and got a few who thought it was A-OK to scout with a plane. I hope I get jury duty on these money grubbing pukes. You who are legitimate outfitters should be the most upset as it reflects poorly on your industry.

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

It's people like that, that give the fuel for the anti-hunter's,

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

Weasels!!!!

GOD BLESS
Charlie Patrick
Eastern Ontario Guided Adventures http://www3.sympatico.ca/chazpat/wildcanada.html

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RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

Personally, I won't hunt with anyone that violates the law. That applies to another hunter or an outfitter.

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

>>>> It's interesting that no mention of this can be found at the "REALTREE" site. George has been Bill Jordan's personal outfitter for a number of years..... Wonder how they feel about him now!

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

I agree with Agent_Smith whole-heartedly and feel that outfitters are not above the law in matter such as these. An indictment, however is not a conviction. Does any one know anything more about this case? My understanding is that using an airplane to count/spot elk, or any game animal, outside hunting season is within the boundries of the law. USO's brochure advertises the use of planes for scouting and I can't believe that they would be stupid enough to advertise an illegal activity.
I have a vested interest in this since I have a hunt scheduled with them next week! Anybody know anything more about this?

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

Saturday, October 5, 2002

Taos hunting outfitter charged with aerial spotting


By The Taos News staff

Oct. 5
George Taulman, owner of United States Outfitters of Taos, has been indicted on federal charges he used an aircraft to spot herds of elk from the air and then relayed the information to his clients who were hunting on the ground.

The act of spotting game animals from the air is illegal. Taulman now faces three felony charges of violating the Lacey Act. Each charge reportedly carries maximum sentences of five years in prison and fines totalling $250,000 for an individual and half a million dollars for a corporation.

He also faces two misdemeanor charges of violating the federal Airborn Hunting Act, which states that it is illegal to assist hunters on the ground from information gathered by an aircraft, along with shooting or harassing animals from the air.

Taulman's Cessna 182 airplane is in the process of being confiscated by the U.S. Attorney's office in Arizona.

The outfitter apparently was caught in a sting operation called "Operation Navajo Buck" by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and Arizona Department of Game and Fish which took place in 1998 and 1999.

More on Operation Navajo Buck http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/az/azpress/2002-072.pdf



Edited by - Agent_Smith on 10/09/2002 19:03:54

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

Dreamin-It is absolutely against the law to scout any game animals in AZ with a plane. They don't put the money into a sting and indict you on five counts if it is acceptable to do. The facts are there and some will still support USO but some probably still support Enron and Worldcon guys also. Money does bad things to even good people and greed makes hunting for dollars open to the same problems as any other business. Sad thing is that clients shouldn't expect a guaranteed chance at a big bull without walking their fat butts around like the rest of us. I hope you have a great hunt and I'm sure some great guides work for USO. Good hunting.

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

OK.
First off it's perfectly legal to scout game from an aircraft! What is illegal is to do it with in 72 hours of hunting 24 in some states. If in fact the USO boys were relaying elk positions to active hunters on the ground then yes they deserve to fry. I need all the facts before I go off the deep end.

If they were issuing positions to hunters that were not yet hunting as in 72 hours before the hunt well that's a different story. Sorry guys but I have a healthy distrust of the US Fish and Feathers.

Agent Smith who do you work for?

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

Surestrike-You are right I think even in AZ on the three day deal. Elk can go a long way in that time. We'll see how this turns out but not many indictments get out of the grand jury without decent evidence. If you are an outfitter let us know what you hear about this and the outcome. I have had a bad run in with these guys in NM so am not a fan anyway but they deserve to get to the hangman before we call them guilty. Good hunting.

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

Glen,
Are you at liberty to say what your bad experience was with USO?

I'll bet there are a bunch of hunting editors heading for cover right about now. I see USO's name in way to many hunting/gun rags.

We've done some business with USO in the past taking some bear hunters out for them. They've always been honest and reliable and never tried to play any money games with us. Besides that I couldn't tell you much about them. Besides they do alot of volume and have a fairly high sucess rate.

Which brings up a good point I get really sick and tired of this question, and it's usually asked within the first 30seconds of any booking conversation. "What's your success rate?"

Well it's 100% on hard quality hunting. Killing well that depends on alot of things doesn't it? You want guarentied success then go to a high fenced game park.

You never know, high stress demands and big promises might just drive an honest man to "cheatin" every know and then.

BEWARE OF THE PROMISED HIGH SUCCESS RATE ON PUBLIC LAND HUNTS!

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

I had two guides working for them come by and spot my rig at dark a.m. They stopped with clients and told me I couldn't cross a small strip of land to go straight up a heart attack hill. Said it was their property. I pulled the map out to show them it was public and they told me they were leasing it. I told them to KMA and climbed hill and killed a 340 bull. I started hunting the area with a guide who worked for USO but was running clients on the side when he got a referral and he didn't speak too well of them but he was also unlicensed and unprepared for us. Luckily I had plenty of gear and food and had a good hunt. Like I said if you are a fat ass pork face with too much money and demand the guides to get you a 360+ bull guaranteed then they aren't gonna like you and will hopefully run a few pounds off. If you are going for the thrill of the hunt and the experience then I hope USO or any other outfitter shows you a great time. I'm outta here tomorrow for a week of bowhunting for elk so see ya later.

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

Give you a tip. Call some of the muzzleloader references in their 2002 brochure. You might be surprised to find that many phone numbers are no longer in service. You may also find that some of those elk on the page for the ML hunts were killed in 1997.

It is my understanding that although the 2002 USO hunt brochure for muzzleloader on their "private ranches" states that "nearly all the bulls taken qualify for the record books", that the first group of 7 hunters this year at the main lodge took 7 bulls, the biggest of which wouldn't score beyond 260 inches. In fact, none of the hunters saw an elk remotely close to 300 inches. What is more, the guides stated flat out that nobody would see or kill a 300" bull on the very first day. 300 inches doesn't come close to making the record book.

Misrepresentation by USO?? How would you like to pay your 6 grand...wait a year to hunt...and have the guides tell you the bad news 5 minutes after you get into camp?



Edited by - Agent_Smith on 10/09/2002 21:53:43

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

Surestrike-I forgot to say my problem was in NM where the private land deal is a real checkerboard deal and money rules for buying tags. Now that I know you're a bear guide I am clamming up. Hunted bear with a guide in Idaho 2 years ago that was the toughest dude I ever met. He almost killed me first two days and I was so sore I couldn't walk for the next three. I have great respect for what you do. Good hunting.

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

Ah come on Glen hunting behind hounds is unsportsman like and way to easy. Just ask anyone who hasn't done it.

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

I had heard back in the spring that U.S.O. was in trouble and that charges were pending. The story I heard was that they were exceptionally successful drawing elk tags for their clients and could not support/guide the number of tagholders that had drawn. They put out a cattle call for local guides, and due to the pressure to be successful and back up their advertising claims, that they had taken to the air to find big bulls and then walk the guides in via radio. The lust for money and notoriety can make people do really stupid things. At the very least it will cost Taulman his reputation, at the other extreme it could cost him his livelihood and even his freedom. I guess he could go back to being a dentist.

"If you can't change your circumstances then you need to change your perspective."

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Surestrike-Leaving in 20 minutes but had to respond. You are so full of crap! Those dogs run a lot faster up hill than a fat 50 year old runs down! That was the toughest hunt I ever did and I ain't no weenie.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>Good hunting and thanks for the laugh.

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

Glen..Thanks for your candid reply. For the record, I am not one of the pork-faced, fat assed hunters you refer to. I too share your feelings that hunting should take place in the back country, not across the hood of your pick-up. A good hunt for me takes me to country that doesn't get walked on very much. Every one of my hunts are preceeded with a couple months of conditioning and numerous hours at the shooting range, as I'm sure yours are!

Thanks to all for the input, opinions, and comments! I'm leaving in a couple days for this hunt and I hopefully will get to see some good animals. If I am fortunate to take one, That'll be a bonus.

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

I hope he fries in hell, he is a weasle that makes elk hunting a big dollar sport. I had a run in with one of his guides in 16A on public land. the guy said this was his hunting area, and i should leave. he mad an ass of himself to several other camps also.
In one of the elk hunting videos that USO was the outfitter where a woman shot a 400 class bull they were all standing around it and the guide said &quot;this is the big one we saw from the plane&quot; anyone else remember that?

Edited by - schmalts on 10/10/2002 13:10:13

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

Scmaltz,
Once again please keep an Open mind until you know the facts!

THERE IS NO LAW AGAINST SCOUTING FROM AN AIRPLANE!!!

You just can't do it with in 72 or 48 or 24 hours (depending on the state) before having hunters on the ground.

I am not defending USO carte Blanch. But I am a long way from siding with the US fish and feathers boys either. If they had it their way there'd be no hunting at all anywhere period.

A bunch of federal scumbag bureacrats as far as I can tell.

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

I'm with you SureStrike! If they prove them guilty then hang 'em from the highest tree, but let's not jump on Federale's bandwagon so fast.

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>


THERE IS NO LAW AGAINST SCOUTING FROM AN AIRPLANE!!!

You just can't do it with in 72 or 48 or 24 hours (depending on the state) before having hunters on the ground.





<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> I trust they made the move on him after they intercepted and recorded radio transmissions from plane to ground. Come on guys, why would the F&G think a case would hold up without at least that..I am pretty sure they have plenty of evidence before they took action. Why am i sure of it? when have you ever heard of game voilations getting thrown out in court, they build a good case first. Just because the F&G made the move on him points to the fact they have pretty good evidence to hold up in court, and they know with USO's money they will have a good lawyer so im sure they made an extra good point to get the evidence.

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

Scmaltz,
Lets let the courts decide that.



Edited by - Surestrike on 10/15/2002 19:13:46

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RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

I scout for deer, elk, moose, bear, sheep, goats camping sites, river acess, roads, geographical oddities and numerous other things from airplanes all the time!!!! IT'S NOT ILLEGAL TO SCOUT FROM AN AIRPLANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In fact most of your guides in fact I think all of your guides in AK and most of Canada and many parts of the lower 48 do it all the time.

Lets get over the airplane scouting thing it's no big deal.

Hunting from an airplane is a big deal unless you have the proper permits and authorization to do so.

As far as a USO guide trying to intimidate locals from an area he didn't controll. WELLLLL! Why didn't some one radically rearainge his facial profile. I know that's what I would do.

Edited by - Surestrike on 10/19/2002 08:51:47

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

Surestrike-I've had my face rearranged several times and it improved each time! I'd rather hit the big bull and drive by their tents and that's what happened. On the plane thing it IS a big deal unless the 72 hours before hunt is in effect. When was the last time anyone got indicted on 5 counts from a jury of their peers for doing something legal? Just like any other game law, I may not like them but if I break them I expect to pay the penalty. I bet this is hunting from the air by spotting and radio but let's wait and see. This will probably plea out with a fine and we won't ever hear of it again. My hunt was great but no meat. Saw only one spike elk and a few cows with no chance to draw the bow. Typical deal with a cow tag-had over a dozen 6x6 bulls with easy shots in bow range. One was a monster 360+ and stood bugling at 25 yards. Sucks. Good hunting.

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

Glen,
Yep I know what you mean. Every time I'm on a cow only it seems the big bulls concentrate within 50 yards of me and stay there!

I am well aware of the 72 hour rule or the 48 hour rule or the 24 hour rule depending on what state your in.

I just want it to be darn clear that is it legal it's a common practice to scout from the air. If you read the post I'm responding to you'll see what Im talking about.

And as far as people intimidating me off of public land or my own private access well,,that wouldn't work out to well for the supposed intimidator.

I'm glad you had a good hunt. Keep up the good work.

I just got back from three days of high altitude hell in unit 472 in CO. No elk but lots of wind and cold temps.

RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

I am really sorry to hear about this in regard to USO. I had an excellent lottery muzzleloading hunt with them in NM last October, primarily due (in my opinion) to letting them know that I would be in shape and getting a guide who knew the area like the back of his hand and hunted very aggressively. I also have another lottery muzzleloading hunt booked with them November 9-13 of this year. Of the 7 hunters in our camp, only myself and the other hunter hunting with our guide killed elk. Some of the other hunters were not in shape, and some of the other guides seemed not to be nearly as aggressive as our guide. That apparent inconsistency of the guides does concern me. I have again been in contact with USO to let them know that I am in shape and again would like a very aggressive guide. While on my hunt last year, guides referred to preseason scouting from planes, but planes were not used at all during our hunt. My experience with USO over the past 3 years has been very positive and they have performed in a very professional way.

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RE: Outfitter Indicted
 

Boys we live in the USA not in of Pakistan. you know innocent until proven guilty..let the courts prove whether he is guilty or not. ANYthing else is Gossip. I hope he is not guilty because he has quite a business with lots of media exposure. I heard something about this 2 years ago from an outfitter friend in Colorado, found it hard to believe then and still do.